All Blizzard honestly needs to do is keep with the model they had in Wrath, put Tier 2 back in the game (give PVP some type of gear incentive/progression for not being total trash - let the 1500 heroes flail around in their QQ pool, as they normally do anyway), keep item levels between the two equal in WPVP environments, but scale down the PVE gear in rated environments (i.e. PVE gear scales to 512 item level on live, but PVP gear is 522 item level). This gives people equal opportunity in WPVP but keeps a sense of "balance" in rated PVP. Putting resilience back on gear and taking away PVP Power as a stat would also be necessary.
The only reason raid gear needs to be so far above PVP gear now is simply because scaling has grown out of control in PVE environments, i.e. damage vs. boss HP pools. Gear item levels were able to be kept similar then because smaller numbers are easier to balance, fact. When something continually grows exponentially, normalization becomes inherently more difficult.
Yes, I realize Wrath and Cata both had the issue of PVE gear showing up in PVP, hence why I suggest it scale down in rated play, below the item level of the current season's gear. Leave them be in WPVP so that PVE'ers aren't completely trash in their gear and PVP'ers aren't at a major gearing disadvantage. If someone truly loves the game and wants to enjoy both aspects, they'll get the gear they need for both sides, in order to progress - end of story.
You also have to take into account that blizzard lowered the PvP ilvl because they did not want people to use PvP gear in PvE. In both wrath and cata it was okay and sometimes desirable to use PvP pieces to raid and Blizzard felt that was asking too much of the dragonslayers. The real reason the ilvl difference is there is to discourage PvP gear in PvE settings, not the other way around.
Well, I find that funny because in PVP, for the first couple of weeks in an expansion, everyone is doing arenas/RBG's in "heroic" blue weapons, until they meet the conquest requirement.
That excuse from them made sense during Wrath/Cata before a Conquest requirement was put on gear, but that is no longer the issue. You're more likely to raid during that month where no one can get early access to an epic weapon from Conquest and get a raid weapon, now.
Even in Wrath/Cata, winning 10 2's games a week wasn't difficult, and half of the time you queue into matches with leavers and collect free points.
1. They've changed the resilience bonus to be slightly higher.
2. PvE players can get both PvP trinkets for the resilience bonus within two weeks.
3. 574 item level is not the max by far. Legendary cloak alone is 608, which will increase the average item level by a lot.
4. Warforged Heroic items. They can be upgraded to item level 580. So if you meet a BiS heroic PvE player, they'll be around 582 item level, except for the trinkets.
5. Prideful gear will be item level 550, not 540.
Depending on the class, it's probably better for the PvE player to have their PvE trinkets equipped, depending on whether they're opening and have a lot of control abilities or not.
A caster can also easily pick up the 550 item level weapon/off-hand for an immense PvP power boost. Those two things are roughly 50% of the PvP power. Meaning they'll gain 30% damage versus targets and only have to give up 2-3k spellpower and a few hundred stamina/int/crit.
(Nearly) BiS geared PvE players will easily decimate you, especially if they're casters who pick up PvP weapons and/or trinkets. Now this is just me trying to pinpoint a skill-level comparison for an open world PvP fight. But I'd say a 1600 rated BiS PvE player could easily take out a 2k rated PvP player, even if they're the same class. Sure, if you're very good, especially in duels, you'll still win. But you'll get annihilated by similar skilled PvE players in their PvE gear if they're somewhat at your skill level. If they're a mixed player, like a lot of people, who don't focus on one aspect of the game, but do heroic raids and high-level PvP. They'll just keep on destroying you, the 28 extra item levels only means you'll survive through the first stun, maybe the second. But definitely not the third.
Last edited by Seditian; 2014-02-18 at 03:53 PM.
Rogue vs. Rogue, it doesn't really matter if you're R1 or a 1500 player, if a 582 ilvl rogue opens on you and you don't trinket the Cheap Shot, you're dead. You're even more dead if this is on Timeless Isle and they have Chi'Ji/Book of Ages/Nutrients/Flask and/or Crystal of Insanity/party buffs/etc.
Hell, you're probably dead if it's ANY class vs. a 582 ilvl rogue, if you don't trinket the Cheap Shot/Garrote. Granted, I killed a 750k HP Combat rogue the other day because he thought opening with Killing Spree was viable and didn't have his stuns bound, but the majority of PVE rogues aren't COMPLETE idiots and have some sense of how their class works in PVP, even if it's basic. Pretty much, if you can get a Sap > Cheap Shot and know hot to run a PVE burst rotation, congratulations, you're a god in many cases, more so on Timeless Isle.
We are far enough into the tier that a LOT of people are starting to clear Heroics despite their actually being generally mediocre. Plenty of BiS Heroic items can be found on the easy Heroic bosses and weapons/trinkets are a pretty strong source of their damage. Rogues with AoC and 2x Fists from Protectors are still going to gib you.
I believe a lot of Heroic raiders are excellent at all aspects of the game. I have no problem with them kicking my ass, but that shouldn't excuse them from using PvP gear to do it.
Grinding out Arenas for 2 months should give you an advantage. If not, at the very least it shouldn't leave you saying "Man, I should have spent those 2 months PvEing so I could PvP."
Then I'm going to summon 3 ghost pandas from the brews you get in the ghost panda village. Then I'm going to unload dps, and if the rogue is trying to farm bloody coins he can't use shrine buffs, book of ages ect, whereas I can. That's not even getting into all the other OP items you can farm.
If there are three of them, they are all going to be dead eventually. One is microwaved toast.
There's no excuse for getting farmed on TI, ever, even for low-geared players, just go prepared.
But yeah, if we're talking about players who exclusively PvE, you won't have a problem against them, except for Rogues/Mages, because of their wide arsenal of stuns. However, if you're up against PvE players who PvP once in a while, even if it's at 1200 rating just to get points, they will have their trinket set and weapon set as well. Those kind of players will completely annihilate you, because you'll deal 60% extra damage, while they'll deal 30% extra damage. But, they still have 150-200k extra health, legendary meta gem/cloak procs and a lot higher damage stats.
I think that is true about raiders not being terrible at pvp, but I also think a lot of people have some sort of experience with a pvp player who comes into pve and fails. When we were raiding hyjal summit we took in a shaman healer applicant who was a gladiator at the time. He did not have a lot of pve experience, but he made the case that pve requires more situational awareness, etc. Long story short, he got laughed out of the guild after the first run through with him. (stood in fire, did not know how to raid heal, did not know CDs, etc)
They are totally different play styles and require a different set of not only game knowledge but also strategy. As a raider, I don't need to know what CDs a warlock has and when I need to be defensive/offensive but a pvper does. The switch side, a pvper does not need to know the mechanics of raid boss X in order to pvp. Sure, there is lots of bleed over, but those guys invest a lot of time in the game and as such I could argue deserve a little bit of a leg up. (of course I also subscribe to the old model of pvp gear in which if you did not raid, you lost)
I think the general consensus is that most players in WoW choose one style of play over the other with a little bit of cross over. I used to be a raider only who dabbled and enjoyed pvp. Now my time limitations make raiding a non starter and I focus on pvp with the occasional LFR or transmog run. I would bet the large majority of players fall into categories like that, and the amount of people that excel and have time for both are few...
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The worst case scenario is that heroic raider that also is a decent pvper, and they do exist. But those guys most likely will get their coins and stop doing world pvp. There is no incentive for them after that and there are better things to do with your time than kill fresh 90s with little to no chance of death. (granted there are people who probably raid specifically for this ability, but they are just garbage and you have to live with those types of players in any game)
I have to be honest, but I find that the complete opposite.
PVP'rs often make decent raiders, because they are so movement focused so moving from fire etc is second nature. whereas in pvp alot of the time pve'rs don't understand the value of positioning and think you can stand there and turret somebody down. Nothing is easier then kiting/LOSing a pve player.
PvE'rs are garbage out of the rat league. you can get to a certain point with gear and knowing your dps rotation, whoooole other thing to have a feel for arena meta. if you're even trying to make that argument,... i don't know man.
skill is a broad term, personally the way i use the word - it includes instinct.
Someone in PVE gear will always stand in front of me when I'm ice blocking, rather than behind me, dragon blast + blink + rocket boots, and I'm away.
PVE teaches you to do the same thing all the time. It is completely useless for the situational mindset you need for pve.
In PVE the number of possible permutations in a given fight is pretty limited, and the correct decision obvious with practice. In PVP its infinite, a chess board with a billion squares.