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  1. #1

    World PvP Heroes

    So it looks like 2 days until the beginning of the new season. How many of the 700-900k HP PvE geared world pvpers are going to go back to queuing from cities like they used to in every year past once they can't just faceroll people with little to no effort?

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Baracuda's Avatar
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    The best geared ones still have a huge advantage. I wonder at what item level PvE gear starts being better than Prideful... 560?
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Baracuda View Post
    The best geared ones still have a huge advantage. I wonder at what item level PvE gear starts being better than Prideful... 560?
    with the resilience changes and the huge additional pvp power on the new Prideful gear, I have hopes that in every scenario the PvP gear will be best in slot for PvP
    Last edited by Danur; 2014-02-17 at 01:58 PM.

  4. #4
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    There's a misconception here that heroic raiders can't get pvp gear. PvP gear is welfare gear and if you don't think a heroic raider who spends 20+ hours a week on this game can't win 10 2's games a week, then you're an idiot.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Danur View Post
    So it looks like 2 days until the beginning of the new season. How many of the 700-900k HP PvE geared world pvpers are going to go back to queuing from cities like they used to in every year past once they can't just faceroll people with little to no effort?
    Heroic geared folks still gonna wipe the floor with you. Instead of it taking 2.3 seconds now it will take them 4.7 seconds. GG

    P.S. Plus if you think that Heroic Raiders lack actual pvp ability you are in for a shocker. They might not be La crème de la crème of the pvp world, but they are on par or above 90%+ of the avenger pvper skill and class knowledge wise.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2014-02-17 at 02:57 AM.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Heroic geared folks still gonna wipe the floor with you. Instead of it taking 2.3 seconds now it will take them 4.7 seconds. GG

    P.S. Plus if you think that Heroic Raiders lack actual pvp ability you are in for a shocker. They might not be La crème de la crème of the pvp world, but they are on par or above 90%+ of the avenger pvper skill and class knowledge wise.
    Having played with (in PvE) and against (PvP) heroic raiders, I can tell you that there's not much of a shocker. PvE knowledge translates to PvP ability only to a certain extent. The rotations, for one, can be quite different. To give you an example, I sometimes see PvE shamans (try to) spam chain heal in bgs and warriors neglecting the use of slam, when burst is important in PvP. Not fake casting ever or easily faked themselves, bad positioning, not keeping track of the enemy's cooldowns, etc. To put it in a different way, PvE is more rigid and set and unless the heroic raider has gone out of his way to learn PvP, he wouldn't be better in PvP than 90% of PvPers. Of the heroic raiders I know, only a portion has the potential to be quite good at PvP.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jwlol View Post
    Having played with (in PvE) and against (PvP) heroic raiders, I can tell you that there's not much of a shocker. PvE knowledge translates to PvP ability only to a certain extent. The rotations, for one, can be quite different. To give you an example, I sometimes see PvE shamans (try to) spam chain heal in bgs and warriors neglecting the use of slam, when burst is important in PvP. Not fake casting ever or easily faked themselves, bad positioning, not keeping track of the enemy's cooldowns, etc. To put it in a different way, PvE is more rigid and set and unless the heroic raider has gone out of his way to learn PvP, he wouldn't be better in PvP than 90% of PvPers. Of the heroic raiders I know, only a portion has the potential to be quite good at PvP.
    About Shaman chain heal spam...You can't really do that as a heroic raider anyways... at least not for tank healing or actually saving people from death...plus it's a sure fire way to run out of mana. How the rotation translates or not is largely irrelevant. Rotations change more often then seasons. Raiders worth their salt are adaptive and that's what makes them good. For Warriors if you play arms Slam is the corner stone of your rotation anyways. What they are failing at is not neglecting Slam, but pooling rage. But that has nothing to do with being a raider or pvper...that is just sucking at Warrioing.

    Positioning is again not an issue. Nowadays the raid environments tend to be extremely dynamic, tons of movement with the need to be keenly aware of what is around you and on how to position yourself. (See Protectors, Juggernaut, Shamans, motherfucking Siegecrafter)

    Now the one thing I do agree on is that tracking enemy cooldowns, and paying attention to details like fake casts and such are an acquired skill, but even there it's not such a gigantic effort. Half of this can be solved via addons anyways. I think you really underestimate Heroic Raiders. Of course not all of them will be good at pvp. But the majority especially those who actively engage in world PvP on PvP servers will be on par or superior to PvP heroes. In my experience a lot of PvPers really really overestimate their own ability. Of course the 2000+ rated crowd in general is worth their salt, but they only make up a fraction of the PvPers. Just as Heroic Raiders only make up a small fraction of PvEers.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2014-02-17 at 07:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mooneye View Post
    Woman rapes a guy, gives birth to child and has custody of the child.
    I don't see why you should take the child from the woman unless she abuses it.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    There's a misconception here that heroic raiders can't get pvp gear. PvP gear is welfare gear and if you don't think a heroic raider who spends 20+ hours a week on this game can't win 10 2's games a week, then you're an idiot.
    I hope they do. Like I said, in every year past those that couldn't PvP would hide away, so I'm wondering if they'll do that again. They can get the gear, but that will only put them on equal footing with PvPers gear-wise. That won't give them the skill that they are lacking right now.

    edit* in short, at least Blizzard has manned up and admitted their mistake. It still pains me though when I see some 900k warlock or 800khp feral druid, just straight up terrorizing everyone, and noticing that they have absolutely no idea what they are doing, and are getting completely outplayed while still winning. In every year past, you had the ability to get the best PvP gear if you put in at least the minimal effort, and you'd be on equal footing statwise. Running around picking fights carefully, when I have an average ilvl of 550, when I know the person I'm avoiding used to be a free kill (because they are bad, not because I had better gear) in the last 3 expansions is rough.
    Last edited by Danur; 2014-02-17 at 02:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Raids are rigid environment, bosses are scripted and they always have the same phases. Minor differences can be between encounters, but mainly players always know what they need to do, there is no split second decisions and gameplay changes like in pvp. In raids, the whole encounter is planned before engagement and it must be done flawlessly.

    Raiding does not prepare players for pvp at all, they might be good players because generally heroic raiders are people who are willing to learn their classes, so they learn how to pvp.

    It makes more sense, that if pvp gear is easier to get, then it should be the better gear for world pvp so players have more equal chance at world pvp. If heroic raid gear is the choice for world pvp, but it requires alot more work and time, it is not fair at all.
    Last edited by Cle; 2014-02-17 at 02:13 PM.

  10. #10
    Epic! theostrichsays's Avatar
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    ... You guys realize how many awful players que 2's until they win their matches, then proceed to QQ on the forums because they can't take out someone who has even smidgen of class knowledge? My DK is walking around in 530 ilvl, normal ToT normal SoO weapon and cloak, because I can't be bothered to do LFR or Flex on them given I don't play them. I don't know how many people I have killed on Timeless Isle both other faction and Censors, so if skill >gear then those guys are SoL and its definetly not leveling the playing field for those guys. Herioc Raiders, the guys walking around in 570 ilvl, are not going to be concerned, they are still going to wipe the floor with the majority of PvP'ers. You all act like PvP is this godly trait that you have or don't that everyone who participates is on a skill level par the course with Rank 1 players. Look those guys at that high end of PvP rarely have trouble with anyone anyways, this means they likely won't have trouble at all. Your average PvP'er is going to win his gear out of 2's head up to Timeless Isle pop a censor and get his backside kicked all the way to the graveyard.

    Nobody has a issue with LFR heroes, nobody has a issue with bad PvP'ers, if your getting smashed in World PvP by heroic raiders chances are they are going to still do it.

  11. #11
    Warchief Anzen's Avatar
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    I'm going to be so upset when my gear can no longer carry me to kill people in PvP gear with little to no effort or skill required. Was it not for the great difference in gear, me and many other heroic raiders would undoubtedly be outplayed because of our lack of PvP knowledge.

    You PvP'ers don't understand. We need this gear to carry us. All we are used to is scripted bosses that we memorize and defeat with practically zero skill required whatsoever (which no doubt any PvP could clear in 10 minutes, if it wasn't for how bad PvP gear is for PvE). How are we going to be even close to able to compete against the battle-hardened, skilled PvP'ers out there with no gear advantage?

    Please PvP'ers, give us a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    About Shaman chain heal spam...You can't really do that as a heroic raider anyways... at least not for tank healing or actually saving people from death...plus it's a sure fire way to run out of mana. How the rotation translates or not is largely irrelevant. Rotations change more often then seasons. Raiders worth their salt are adaptive and that's what makes them good. For Warriors if you play arms Slam is the corner stone of your rotation anyways. What they are failing at is not neglecting Slam, but pooling rage. But that has nothing to do with being a raider or pvper...that is just sucking at Warrioing.

    Positioning is again not an issue. Nowadays the raid environments tend to be extremely dynamic, tons of movement with the need to be keenly aware of what is around you and on how to position yourself. (See Protectors, Juggernaut, Shamans, motherfucking Siegecrafter)

    Now the one thing I do agree on is that tracking enemy cooldowns, and paying attention to details like fake casts and such are an acquired skill, but even there it's not such a gigantic effort. Half of this can be solved via addons anyways. I think you really underestimate Heroic Raiders. Of course not all of them will be good at pvp. But the majority especially those who actively engage in world PvP on PvP servers will be on par or superior to PvP heroes. In my experience a lot of PvPers really really overestimate their own ability. Of course the 2000+ rated crowd in general is worth their salt, but they only make up a fraction of the PvPers. Just as Heroic Raiders only make up a small fraction of PvEers.
    ^
    Last edited by Anzen; 2014-02-17 at 02:40 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    I'm going to be so upset when my gear can no longer carry me to kill people in PvP gear with little to no effort or skill required. Was it not for the great difference in gear, me and many other heroic raiders would undoubtedly be outplayed because of our lack of PvP knowledge.

    You PvP'ers don't understand. We need this gear to carry us. All we are used to is scripted bosses that we memorize and defeat with practically zero skill required whatsoever (which no doubt any PvP could clear in 10 minutes, if it wasn't for how bad PvP gear is for PvE). How are we going to be even close to able to compete against the battle-hardened, skilled PvP'ers out there with no gear advantage?

    Please PvP'ers, give us a chance.



    ^
    Pretty much. It's refreshing to see such honesty on these forums for once.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    About Shaman chain heal spam...You can't really do that as a heroic raider anyways... at least not for tank healing or actually saving people from death...plus it's a sure fire way to run out of mana. How the rotation translates or not is largely irrelevant. Rotations change more often then seasons. Raiders worth their salt are adaptive and that's what makes them good. For Warriors if you play arms Slam is the corner stone of your rotation anyways. What they are failing at is not neglecting Slam, but pooling rage. But that has nothing to do with being a raider or pvper...that is just sucking at Warrioing.

    Positioning is again not an issue. Nowadays the raid environments tend to be extremely dynamic, tons of movement with the need to be keenly aware of what is around you and on how to position yourself. (See Protectors, Juggernaut, Shamans, motherfucking Siegecrafter)

    Now the one thing I do agree on is that tracking enemy cooldowns, and paying attention to details like fake casts and such are an acquired skill, but even there it's not such a gigantic effort. Half of this can be solved via addons anyways. I think you really underestimate Heroic Raiders. Of course not all of them will be good at pvp. But the majority especially those who actively engage in world PvP on PvP servers will be on par or superior to PvP heroes. In my experience a lot of PvPers really really overestimate their own ability. Of course the 2000+ rated crowd in general is worth their salt, but they only make up a fraction of the PvPers. Just as Heroic Raiders only make up a small fraction of PvEers.
    I still think you're overestimating heroic raiders. I regularly raided heroic DS in cata, and in my experience the raiders were not very competent at PvP. Those who occasionally did arena hovered around 1500. Think about this: top arena players have stressed that the most important thing when it comes to becoming skilled at PvP is experience -- especially in arena. I would always wager on average 1550 PvP heroes over heroic raiders who almost never PvP.

    I also don't think you can brush off positioning just like that. Once again, you need actual experience to become good at positioning in a PvP setting. Experience, experience, experience. WoW's PvP is not especially difficult, but the value of experience cannot be understated.

    Understand that I'm arguing less about potential than actual ability.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    I'm going to be so upset when my gear can no longer carry me to kill people in PvP gear with little to no effort or skill required. Was it not for the great difference in gear, me and many other heroic raiders would undoubtedly be outplayed because of our lack of PvP knowledge.

    You PvP'ers don't understand. We need this gear to carry us. All we are used to is scripted bosses that we memorize and defeat with practically zero skill required whatsoever (which no doubt any PvP could clear in 10 minutes, if it wasn't for how bad PvP gear is for PvE). How are we going to be even close to able to compete against the battle-hardened, skilled PvP'ers out there with no gear advantage?

    Please PvP'ers, give us a chance.
    haha love it, that is how most PvP'rs see PvE yet i love to see their feats/achievement dates and see nothing of proof that shows they have ever done it.
    might as well say i'm the worlds strongest man, but i'm not going to be lifting anything over 100kg because it's too easy!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Heroic geared folks still gonna wipe the floor with you. Instead of it taking 2.3 seconds now it will take them 4.7 seconds. GG

    P.S. Plus if you think that Heroic Raiders lack actual pvp ability you are in for a shocker. They might not be La crème de la crème of the pvp world, but they are on par or above 90%+ of the avenger pvper skill and class knowledge wise.
    That is double the time to give those dragonslayers a oneway ticket to the cliff boss...
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    That is double the time to give those dragonslayers a oneway ticket to the cliff boss...
    anyone without a glider on timeless isle is instantly bad :x

  17. #17
    So I was curious so I used wowhead item comparison to compare two full sets. One full 540 set with gems and enchants, and one 566 set that has been double upgraded with gems and enchants. This is what it looks like:

    540:
    Stamina - 27,018
    Intellect - 19,467
    PvP Power - 23056 (57.4%)
    PvP Resilience 3375 (10.89%)
    Spell Power - 10,556

    574:
    Stamina - 37056
    Intellect - 27,578
    Spell Power - 14,492

    So the PvP player will do roughly 57% more damage to the PvE player. The PvE player has roughly 37% more health, 41% more intellect, 37% more spell power. The PvP player will also take less damage and the PvE player cloak and meta will not work against players.

    I don't even want to try to figure out the trinkets, but I think from this general look at stats you can see that the pvp power will make up for the difference if you are not scared by the much larger health pool and don't play stupid.

  18. #18
    Epic! theostrichsays's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=jwlol;25412013]I still think you're overestimating heroic raiders. I regularly raided heroic DS in cata, and in my experience the raiders were not very competent at PvP. Those who occasionally did arena hovered around 1500. Think about this: top arena players have stressed that the most important thing when it comes to becoming skilled at PvP is experience -- especially in arena. I would always wager on average 1550 PvP heroes over heroic raiders who almost never PvP.

    I also don't think you can brush off positioning just like that. Once again, you need actual experience to become good at positioning in a PvP setting. Experience, experience, experience. WoW's PvP is not especially difficult, but the value of experience cannot be understated.


    There is your first problem... your comparing the easiest heroic tier in memory to anything. Saying you raided heroic DS at a 30 percent debuff and saying oh derp derp these other derps suck is not really proving your point.

  19. #19
    My friend, who's raided heroics since TBC, and my other friend who's currently raiding heroics have both agreed with my assessment. How about you try addressing my points instead? I guess that's too much to ask for on these forums xD

  20. #20
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    (which no doubt any PvP could clear in 10 minutes, if it wasn't for how bad PvP gear is for PvE).
    Almost spat my drink out, would pay big bucks to see that. Arrogant, clueless PvPers at their best :>



    In regards to PvP and PvE gear, it should be how it was in Wrath. If you used PvE gear you could still do PvP, but you were pretty much a glass cannon. Your burst was high but any skilled player would use cd's and negate the majority of it. Basically, PvP gear was the way to go for serious PvP and PvE gear was mainly something for videos on bad players or for a laugh, which is how it should be. I do hope Prideful brings some balance back into the mix, but I'm not sure it will be enough.

    Either way, like it matters. Pretty much all serious PvPers are waiting for the next expac or just loling around because of how terrible the balance has been this expac. Sad that this is the first expac where I haven't had a full time dedicated PvP alt that I enjoyed playing casually and messing around with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jwlol View Post
    I still think you're overestimating heroic raiders. I regularly raided heroic DS in cata, and in my experience the raiders were not very competent at PvP. Those who occasionally did arena hovered around 1500. Think about this: top arena players have stressed that the most important thing when it comes to becoming skilled at PvP is experience -- especially in arena. I would always wager on average 1550 PvP heroes over heroic raiders who almost never PvP.

    I also don't think you can brush off positioning just like that. Once again, you need actual experience to become good at positioning in a PvP setting. Experience, experience, experience. WoW's PvP is not especially difficult, but the value of experience cannot be understated.

    Understand that I'm arguing less about potential than actual ability.
    Tbh, I would agree with this. The average PvE player is going to suck at PvP, but it works the other way as well since both are different ball games. Thing is, you don't really see a huge impact when a PvP player does a raid because unless they're doing heroics (which they won't be) since they won't wipe the raid because of tight dps checks and such, whereas if you brought a fresh PvE player into say a 3v3 match then you're going to get stomped. Doesn't mean either one is harder or takes more skill, it means you have more people carrying you in PvE. Unless someone links the dps and then you can see how terrible you really are doing (which I don't think PvPers seem to understand).
    Last edited by TJ; 2014-02-17 at 05:18 PM.

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