6.0 Shaman Info, Speculation, and Discussion!

[Raiju]

It's not just a tooltip issue is all I can confirm from that.

[Tyze]

Im just concern (Elemental Shaman) that earth shock is stronger than lava burst :/ I really hope this changes.

[Omanley]

@Kralljin: To safe space (each minus stands for a response to one of your points, maybe I skipped one):
-And again, dps gains are made trivial with numbers pass. Utility losses are what's bothersome. If we lost 10% shock damage, I wouldn't complain.
-To get back on track about Ascendence: It's essence is attacking on range, as is the case with FrS/Shear. Having to glyph for the essence of the ability is dumb. FrS/Shear still have range, but will be much easier to outrange, so it's still a nerf to the essence of the ability. Having to glyph for Ascendence to have range, or shocks to have enough range, it'd be the same shit.
-FrS/Shear having range is not enough. Them having enough range is what's needed to offset bad mobility. If casters can just outrange the tools meant to be used against them, what's the point? Loss in essence.
-If you check mop top1k 3v3 represantations, you'll notice that there are much more marksman hunters and frost mages than all other ranged specs combined. A large part of high ranked teams have at least one of these two, yes. They sit at the top because of good control. We sit at the bottom because it works especially well against us.
-During my time in tbc/wotlk/early cata, when I faced ele, I never had a hard time against them as a melee. Obviously you'd be used to being focused. But does that make it any better? You need tools that make you a less attractive target. You cant just mooch of your healer all the time until rng decides to favor you. again, bad design. And again, once you hit a patch/x-pack where your lvb is in the shitter, dmg-wise, or your dps style gets revisited, suddenly everything rides on the stuff besides damage, in which we are bad.
-My solution? Give everyone the bare minimum of stuff you should be able to expect, and the rest is class/spec specific focus/strenght in/on something, and unique extras. Every melee needs to have a frequently avaiable gap closing tool that is reliable (that means, add one for ret+enh). Hex/Totems shouldn't be as far below the standard of cc and utility as they are.
And as sad as it is, at some point blizz dumped unique stuff in favor of homogenisation. The "give everyone the same tools" is already the case in many instances. For example interrupts. None for feral, no good one for warriors (pummel required bersi stance), dk/monk not existing, none for ret. Now everyone has a interrupt, where we used to rain by far supreme, we're now slightly ahead. Or stuns. Pala/Rogue once, now everyone has it, only that ours had to be shitty CPT. Or gap closers, with rogues getting Shadowstep, Ferals Leap, monks/dks with grip and roll/serpent kick...and we? Nothing.
My solution would be homogenisation where it's due, not complete homogenisation.
-Fine, FrS/Shear are strong, as individual spells compared to similar effects. Granted. For an ability to be strong though, you also need to consider context. FrS by itself is strong, as a gap closer replacement it's not, and that's what it is used for, as enh. Same goes for shear, to the largest degree. Or FrS for ele, which cant utilize it well, due to sharing cd with ES/FS. I guess I should've been more specific, though.
-If with high uptime in Wotlk you meant early beastcleave with original Earthen Power: What made enh strong wasn't high uptime, but burst, with unkitability on the whole team. That, and the incredible synergy with beast master hunters. Popping all cds with enraged beasts, popping bloodlust and being immune to snare/root was pretty op (plus peeling absorbs/hots via purge spam). Outside of cooldowns, high uptime through EP wasn't that game breaking. Enh was weak without wolves+lust.
-Yes, grounding has that one plus, and at the same time, minus (when you ground a spell not aimed at you and dont want to ground, but the one aimed at you) to it. The numerous plus sides of Spellreflect make it still stronger though.
-So basically ele pvp consists of standing there, waiting for FS to proc Lava Surge, and hit Earth Shock every now and then for Fulmination dumping, with utility being mostly optional. Sounds like restricted pve, but not pvp. Imo, it is good style of play for a caster to kite melees, have proper tools for it, and be heavily rewarded for it. being designed around being a punching back anyway...no way, bad design. You're either heavily dependant on peels and/or lots of heal, compared to other specs. Pvp imo means to provide as much support with all your stuff as possible. Just providing good damage is pve level.
-instead of "that doesn't mean the rest your your toolkit can be useless..." It is the case. Shamans have weak utility all around. If you focus on stomping totems and pummel on an ele, there's not much left to it.
-Even in healer comps, wont they (healers) prefer a target that can burst just as well(I am sure elemental doesn'thave a monopoly on that), but stand alone better, and be less dependant on baby-sitting? Supporting others is a shaman's strenght, but having to support because we're weak ourselves doens't sound very enticing. A frost can peel of a healer and support that way too, while having better all around utility and can burst also (though I dont know side-by-side difference between bursts on beta on current patch).
-Rogues (garrote), shamans (hex), and warlocks (spell lock, fel hunter) also have silence. Dunno if I forgot any.
-Does TT on beta remove Gouge, Sap and other incapacitate effects now? I cant see it from your answer. Hex being an incapacitate is just on paper. It's not an actual incapacitate, or it would make the target unable to move. It is a silence/pacify still.
-Punishment for destroying a totem, forcing decisions, yes, also good.
-You could also say if PS only worked on one target, it'd be fine, but on the entire group, it is different . Double standards. One class happens to have a perfect counter to your ability. What's different between that and Touch of Karma vs Ascendence, for example? In fact, there are many of such examples.
Is it a grave error to have your entire team affected by fear? maybe. But that doesn't change that TT was designed for this specific purpose, dispelling aoe fears from you AND your allies, which only happens when multiple are hit by an aoe fear. If it cannot do that, appropriate or not, it's garbage. If they redesigned it to a bersi rage clone, I would not mind. I prefer that over a liability. At some point, even as a shaman, I want to be selfish and have a great tool just for me, the shaman, not everything existing to support others, while suffering myself.
And a druid can just walk into an aoe snare and shrug it off, as often as he wants. Making mistakes not leading to a disadvantage is a thing, often enough.
-Well, if that specific CC is dependant on a support cc, I guess you'll have to make a choice. Like shamans, which are expected to do tons of things to make CPT go through. As said, I'd wish they gave priests two decent ccs in the other talent row slots to allow them alternatives. That said, Tremor being more multipurpose (working against more than just fear/charm) and being self only would be a good sollution. Blizz is obviously overchallenged in making group utility work in pvp, so make it (utility) more individual(and shamans more potent).
-The funny thing is, I knew they mentioned Scatter's removal for WoD (despite sometimes not being that much informed on other classes in beta, generally), but upon verifying it to make sure, I somehow must've overlooked it, and assumed they had it stay after all. It is indeed gone, as I originally thought. You're right, my bad.
On another note: Wyvern Sting appears to be the second cc now ingame, that has both a cd AND a cast time. I guess I do feel bad for hunters, maybe they feel our pain now, too. That said, I still dont know wether or not we can actually tremor it in beta, and it's also castable on move, plus probably unaffect by interrupt, so not as bad as Hex still, not mentioning higher range.
-It still costs them more time to outrange FrS/Shear. If they have to spend 2-3 seconds more to do so, that's pretty big.
-Concerning BoS/Shifting: Well yeah, you can always nerf others. Might add monks to the list, in how they can fly across the entire screen that much. That said, buffing one or two specs severely behind sounds more of a noble request towards blizz, than nerfing gap closing on everyone, to bring us in line. Why ruin everyone's fun, if you can focus increasing the on those being behind?

[jayinjersey]

The tooltip seems to be correct now showing 46%...granted it isn't reducing the cooldowns but "baby steps"

[Kralljin]

I'm trying to keep it short as possible.

-During my time in tbc/wotlk/early cata, when I faced ele, I never had a hard time against them as a melee. Obviously you'd be used to being focused. But does that make it any better? You need tools that make you a less attractive target. You cant just mooch of your healer all the time until rng decides to favor you. again, bad design.

This black / white portrayal annoys me, you just don't stand there as Elemental and hop happily around until you magically receive multiple Lava Surge procs.

Handling a focus properly is what seperates good players from bad players, if you are totally overstrained by being focused then a class who is getting focused a lot isn't simply made for you.

To position yourself properly to interrupt any Spells / CC, not to LoS your healer, switching between defensive playstyle and offensive takes a lot of skill to pull off properly.

And again, once you hit a patch/x-pack where your lvb is in the shitter, dmg-wise, or your dps style gets revisited, suddenly everything rides on the stuff besides damage, in which we are bad.

So the solution is give everyone Frost Mage / Hunter utility?

-My solution? Give everyone the bare minimum of stuff you should be able to expect, and the rest is class/spec specific focus/strenght in/on something, and unique extras. Every melee needs to have a frequently avaiable gap closing tool that is reliable (that means, add one for ret+enh). Hex/Totems shouldn't be as far below the standard of cc and utility as they are.

First you want to give everyone basic tools, then you go on:

And as sad as it is, at some point blizz dumped unique stuff in favor of homogenisation. The "give everyone the same tools" is already the case in many instances. For example interrupts.

What basic tools are is in the sight of the beholder, especially in terms of homogenisation.

-Yes, grounding has that one plus, and at the same time, minus (when you ground a spell not aimed at you and dont want to ground, but the one aimed at you) side to it.

Happens rather rarely to me since the time window is usually rather small, since you want that cast X flies into the grounding totem, so that the enemy doesn't have chance to stopcast and cancel grounding.

- Supporting others is a shaman's strenght, but having to support because we're weak ourselves doens't sound very enticing. A frost can peel of a healer and support that way too, while having better all around utility and can burst also

The difference is that Frost Mage is quite predictable, in a World where close to all specs have a lot of instant CC / Def / Movement / Kite tools are flying around, unpredictability might be more effective than 100% predictable burst.

If a Frost mage sends out his frozen orb, everybody knows that they have to be on their toes now, if you suddenly drop from 80% to 20% out of nowhere it may cause an error on the enemy which will cost him the match because he wasn't seeing this coming at all.

-Rogues (garrote), shamans (hex), and warlocks (spell lock, fel hunter) also have silence. Dunno if I forgot any.

Well, a Rogue has to use Vanish for Garrote, blowing a CD like this may backfire, since Vanish is also good for defense.

Spell Lock doesn't silence anymore.

If you count hex, then you could also count Poly and pretty much every other CC spell.

-You could also say if PS only worked on one target, it'd be fine, but on the entire group, it is different . Double standards. One class happens to have a perfect counter to your ability. What's different between that and Touch of Karma vs Ascendence, for example?

It is a huge difference if a spell affects your entire team or just yourself.

And the comparison of Ascendance and Touch of Karma...Force Touch of Karma before Ascendance or just switch targets?

Just because a Monk has Touch of Karma doesn't mean that Ascendance is useless, unless your plan is to simply roll over the Monk with every CD at your disposal.

Is it a grave error to have your entire team affected by fear? maybe. But that doesn't change that TT was designed for this specific purpose, dispelling aoe fears from you AND your allies.

In a World where CC is supposed to matter, tool that allows you to nullify a CC on your entire team needs some restrictions, else the team is 50% immune to said CC school.

Skills like Bers Rage affect at least just the Warrior alone, tremor is currently a Bers Rage for your entire team.

And as for the "I want just to affect the Shaman" part, i still think that Shaman is a class that, to an extent, is a class that should shine in groups, skills like Tremor and Windwalk are the few things that is actually left of this.

-Concerning BoS/Shifting: Well yeah, you can always nerf others. Might add monks to the list, in how they can fly across the entire screen that much. That said, buffing one or two specs severely behind sounds more of a noble request towards blizz, than nerfing gap closing on everyone, to bring us in line. Why ruin everyone's fun, if you can focus increasing the on those being behind?

This is the classic problem of the vicious cycle known as Arms race, Class X receives new tool which counters Class Y, Class Y receives new tool to counter new tool from Class X.

Which one are the losers? The specs don't receive anything, if you cut down the mobility of certain Melee specs, then in turn you might cut down the kite tools of certain ranged specs, so that in the end that the ones that originally received nothing might still catch up.

Because if there are too many spells to counter spells, you'll end in games that go like this:
http://www.darklegacycomics.com/455

[Aviators]

I wouldn't mind a glyph of ankh where it returns the shaman to full health and is usable every wipe instead of every 10 mins

[Recom]

Is anyone actually reading the multiquote garbage posts? PM each other or something.

No. It's always like this in the sham forum, some people like writing big ass posts that nobody reads !

[Deleted]

I wouldn't mind a glyph of ankh where it returns the shaman to full health and is usable every wipe instead of every 10 mins

That would be vastly too powerful on progression encounters. There is a reason why Battle Ress has a limited number of uses per fight. There would have to be a downside applied to this glyph that adds it too the Battle Ress count. Then it would be pretty (situationally) useful in that you could use it too Battle Ress yourself, so you know exactly where you would appear (so you don't insta-die like sometimes happens when you are Battle Ressed). However, a full HP, free, every combat instance Battle Ress would be too powerful I feel.

However, I do think there should be a minor glyph that makes it ress us at full hp. I've always felt that should exist. Or if that is too good, at least 70% hp, so that if you ress during a high AoE phase (say the final 10%), you don't instantly die again.

[Protoman]

That would be vastly too powerful on progression encounters. There is a reason why Battle Ress has a limited number of uses per fight. There would have to be a downside applied to this glyph that adds it too the Battle Ress count. Then it would be pretty (situationally) useful in that you could use it too Battle Ress yourself, so you know exactly where you would appear (so you don't insta-die like sometimes happens when you are Battle Ressed). However, a full HP, free, every combat instance Battle Ress would be too powerful I feel.

However, I do think there should be a minor glyph that makes it ress us at full hp. I've always felt that should exist. Or if that is too good, at least 70% hp, so that if you ress during a high AoE phase (say the final 10%), you don't instantly die again.

Isn't one of the Draenor perks that we rez at 50% when we use our ankh? What is the icd on that anyways.... is it 15 or 30 min? I think 15 min is pretty good, that is like every 2-3 attempts, but 30 min seems too long.


Anyone else think Enhance only using FRS is a bad idea? It makes no sense when you consider that FRS is used to CC, and with Frozen Power we will quickly get DR and interfere with other peoples roots. It is our only direct damage shock.... it makes much more sense to keep ES in for us to use on CD, and FRS if we decide we want to CC or slow instead of just damage.

[Deleted]

Isn't one of the Draenor perks that we rez at 50% when we use our ankh? What is the icd on that anyways.... is it 15 or 30 min? I think 15 min is pretty good, that is like every 2-3 attempts, but 30 min seems too long.

That is true, and its easily my favourite change they are implementing in WoD (excluding Mount Speed Ghost Wolf, which I'm pretty stoked for, zoom zoom). I do wish it was 100% hp though. And IIRC it's still 30 minutes in WoD?

[Mordog]

Shaman (Forums, Talent Calculator)
Windstrike Hurl a staggering blast of wind at an enemy, dealing Physical damage equal to 170% 250% weapon damage, bypassing armor, and granting you an additional 25% chance to critically strike that enemy with your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Shield, and Earth Shock for 15 sec. Damage is increased by 0% while Lightning Shield is active. Requires Melee Weapon. 1% of Base Mana. 30 yd range. Instant. 7.5 sec cooldown.
Windstrike Hurl a staggering blast of wind at an enemy, dealing Physical damage equal to 170% 250% weapon damage, bypassing armor, and granting you an additional 25% chance to critically strike that enemy with your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Shield, and Earth Shock for 15 sec. Damage is increased by 0% while Lightning Shield is active. Requires Melee Weapon. 100 yd range. Instant.
Windstrike Off-Hand Hurl a staggering blast of wind at an enemy, dealing Physical damage equal to 170% 250% weapon damage, bypassing armor, and granting you an additional 25% chance to critically strike that enemy with your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Shield, and Earth Shock for 15 sec. Damage is increased by 0% while Lightning Shield is active. Requires Melee Weapon. 100 yd range. Instant.

What is Windstrike?
I thought that could be the Ascendance version of Stormstrike but MMO Beta Talentplaner says that Windstrike is a lvl 40 Skill.
We get Ascendance at lvl 87...


Waht is the meaning of:

Damage is increased by 0% while Lightning Shield is active

So Lightning Shield is Buffin our Windstrike whats moste likly is just the Ascendance Skill, so we get a bit more Burst while Asdendance?
Hopefully they are also adding that for Stromstrike.

an additional 25% chance to critically strike that enemy with your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Shield, and Earth Shock for 15 sec.

Tooltipp wrong or do thex really not change this to Frost Shock?

[Deleted]

yes its the SS name when under ascendance

while LS is active buff ss dmg by 13% according to tooltip

[jayinjersey]

So Lightning Shield is Buffin our Windstrike whats moste likly is just the Ascendance Skill, so we get a bit more Burst while Asdendance?
Hopefully they are also adding that for Stromstrike.

Unless you are reading this on something new...the buff to Windstrike (Formerly Stormblast) & Stormstrike while Lightning Shield is active was dropped either at the end of Alpha or very early in the Beta.

Lightning Shield does nothing for us now*




*yes I'm aware we can use a Major Glyph to give a 10% damage reduction when it procs, but I've still seen no evidence that it procs from "aoe" or "incidental damage" making that pretty useless

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Sometimes I hate how indecisive I can be. What took forever to decide upon, to main an Enhancement Shaman, is now mired in decisions of whether or not I should do a race change for mostly aesthetic issues such as how Tauren look silly on an Ultramarine Battle Tank.

Maybe I'll think about it some more as I am grinding out Archaeology from 1 to 600 for the fourth character just because I like to have it maxed out and ready for the next expansion.

[Jelz]

Sometimes I hate how indecisive I can be. What took forever to decide upon, to main an Enhancement Shaman, is now mired in decisions of whether or not I should do a race change for mostly aesthetic issues such as how Tauren look silly on an Ultramarine Battle Tank.

Maybe I'll think about it some more as I am grinding out Archaeology from 1 to 600 for the fourth character just because I like to have it maxed out and ready for the next expansion.

Same problem here, my friends say I overthink it too much and they are probably right...

I really want to play Enh/resto Sham, but everything I tested and read tell me to get the hell out of here and play something else.

I guess that the same deal as many here. Loving the class/archetype but wondering about the obvious issues its suffer from.

[Satori]

Let's not pretend shamans aren't in the best place they have ever been troughout the entire WoW history.

[jayinjersey]

I preferred early wrath shaman myself...but I like where they are


As I've told people before: Most dps specs are just classes...Enhancement is a calling





Now if only they fix Heirloom iLevel and the AoC trinket on PTR, I can get a real feel for where I'll be come 6.0

[Murderdoll]

Let's not pretend shamans aren't in the best place they have ever been troughout the entire WoW history.

I agree that 5.x enhance is in a good spot, ele is lucky there is lots of chain lightning chances. Certainly for enhance it's the most competitive spot it has been in a while. However that doesn't excuse lazy design choices and major flaws with the class as a whole.

I don't see what the current status of shaman has to do with (oh we got 2 patches rejoice and go back to the bottom?) a thread based on 6.x changes.

Also news just in. Tier bonus nerfed as expected.

[Satori]

I meant their state in 6.0. If you have done raid testing, you know enhance is a top dps contender (and tied with arms in aoe so far) and elemental is competitive. Resto is bad, but mastery actually does something now. Enhance is also extremely good in pvp so far, I can't speak for Elemental.

[Deleted]

I meant their state in 6.0. If you have done raid testing, you know enhance is a top dps contender (and tied with arms in aoe so far) and elemental is competitive. Resto is bad, but mastery actually does something now. Enhance is also extremely good in pvp so far, I can't speak for Elemental.

i don't see what you are seeing. Resto still have huge mechanical/ballance issues elemental is doing a little bit better in pve than live atm but totally sucks ass in pvp and enhancement is doing better in pvp than live and all of a sudden we are great ? O_o NO! just NO!