1. #2421
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    "practically doesn't exist from a player POV?" I don't know, I think I'd notice pretty quickly that my performance is terrible-to-mediocre on 2-3 targets and awesome at 5+ targets, and the exponential scaling is the reason for that.
    How often are you going to have a scaling number of targets during a fight to visually notice the exponential scale from 2>7? Near never.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  2. #2422
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    How often are you going to have a scaling number of targets during a fight to visually notice the exponential scale from 2>7? Near never.
    Why does it have to be during a single fight? You'll notice when your performance swings wildly between fight A and fight B.

  3. #2423
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Why does it have to be during a single fight? You'll notice when your performance swings wildly between fight A and fight B.
    Sure, on a sim where you have a fight with 2, then 3, then 4 etc. Once again very unlikely. Generally you're just going to see 3 things (where fire nova is applicable: Single target, 2-3 target cleave, capped aoe. Very rarely something inbetween.

    Once again, PRACTICALLY doesn't exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  4. #2424
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Sure, on a sim where you have a fight with 2, then 3, then 4 etc. Once again very unlikely. Generally you're just going to see 3 things (where fire nova is applicable: Single target, 2-3 target cleave, capped aoe. Very rarely something inbetween.

    Once again, PRACTICALLY doesn't exist.
    You really can't think of any fights where there's been more than 3 adds but less than 7 to aoe at any given time, or fights where more than one type of cleave/aoe is present? All you have to look at is the tier we're currently doing to dispute that.

    Immerseus: Capped.
    Protectors: 3 targets usually (poor-to-meh aoe) most times, but on some phases it gives you 5-7+ targets (really good aoe)
    Norushen: number of targets depends on how many large adds get dragged to the center but generally on the lower # of targets end of the spectrum
    Sha of Pride: Generally offers capped aoe on the add waves
    Galakras: 2-6+ targets usually (depending on the wave)
    Iron Juggernaut: n/a
    Dark Shaman: 4 on the pull, 2 most of the time after that (if stacked) with brief periods of capped aoe if you get a lucky spread on the slimes (easier next expansion with the +spread radius glyph)
    Nazgrim: 3-5 targets generally available on the add waves, depending on how many you can grip in and how they behave after that
    Malkorok: Up to 4 targets available per slime wave
    Spoils: You get to choose! How many boxes do you open at any given time?
    Thok: Bats offer capped aoe
    Siegecrafter: Mines depend on how fast you kill them since they only spawn ~1-3 at a time (they obviously die really fast now, if they even spawn to begin with)
    Klaxxi: Most of the AOE on this fight is padding/not useful, but there are generally 3 targets available. Could have much more than that if you let parasites spawn.
    Garrosh: ~capped aoe in phase 1, 3-target cleave/AOE for each add pack in the first transition phase, 5-target aoe for every MC, capped aoe in the 2nd transition phase (doesn't happen anymore), potentially 2-3 target cleave in the last phase if you let add spawns (again, typically doesn't happen)
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2014-11-04 at 08:09 PM.

  5. #2425
    Galakras - generally 4-5 for 10 seconds then 1-2 rest of the time*
    Counting the pull on dark shamans is absolutely ridiculous. It is an incredibly short part of the fight, and before any abilities come into play.
    Always killed adds in their spawn positions on nazgrim, dps has never been an issue so it just seemed redundant.
    Malkorok slimes is even more ridiculous than dark shamans wolves - pre patch it was hard to get a single spread + fire nova on them (and never realistically on all 3)
    Spoils is generally 1-2 with bursts of 3-4, more valid than the previous 2 examples though (pre patch once again)
    Garrosh - even you admit counting add spawns isn't normal

    Most of your examples of non 2-3 target AND non capped are mere seconds of the entire fight, and often inconsequential/padding dps to be kill immediately. Surely after typing all that out you see the point yourself...
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  6. #2426
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Counting the pull on dark shamans is absolutely ridiculous. It is an incredibly short part of the fight, and before any abilities come into play.
    Malkorok slimes is even more ridiculous than dark shamans wolves - pre patch it was hard to get a single spread + fire nova on them (and never realistically on all 3)
    Both of these are good examples of where AOE can help our single target damage, even if it's only for a short period of time at the start of a fight (i.e. dark shamans - analogous to "on the pull burst" of days past) or for short periods of time throughout it (i.e. malkorok), and even if the adds you're AOE'ing are considered "pad damage" (since the fire novas that hit the boss aren't pad damage).

    Shamans share a health pool and you start out with 4 flame shock targets = each shaman gets hit by 3 fire novas = fire nova is a ~288.4% SP nuke for effective boss damage during that period of the fight.

    Malkorok getting hit by 3 fire novas = an extra ~144.2% SP damage nuke for those brief periods of the fight. And my experience with the slimes is apparently different from yours - we gripped and taunted them in most of the time, so it wasn't very hard to get a nova off that hit all of them if you wanted to.

  7. #2427
    Yes, and doing more dps at the start of shamans once again helps noone. It's pure padding, unless for some reason you're facing the enrage..?

    Malkorok I wish getting 3 fire novas was the norm. We usually taunted them in due to running 0/1, max 2 dk's - and even then they died in 3 hits to anything so getting a fire nova off was extremely difficult
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  8. #2428
    Worth to "hope for the best" or reroll to Mage or Hunter?

  9. #2429
    Quote Originally Posted by Euroguy View Post
    Worth to "hope for the best" or reroll to Mage or Hunter?
    Depends what level you're playing at.

    I imagine very few on the forum are in a position where they CAN'T be viable in their guild on shaman if it were to turn out literally bottom specs. For most people it's more a question of if they are happy knowing they could be more useful to their team on a stronger class.

    If you are happy to play shaman, you should probably stick to it unless you're in that top 50~ bracket - at which point I'd be surprised if you didn't have multiple characters planned from the get-go
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  10. #2430
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Depends what level you're playing at.

    I imagine very few on the forum are in a position where they CAN'T be viable in their guild on shaman if it were to turn out literally bottom specs. For most people it's more a question of if they are happy knowing they could be more useful to their team on a stronger class.

    If you are happy to play shaman, you should probably stick to it unless you're in that top 50~ bracket - at which point I'd be surprised if you didn't have multiple characters planned from the get-go
    I usually play for fun (lol), ehm I mean I don't take the game too seriously, however I do want to perform good. I'm getting frustrated if im not in top 5-8 most damage.

    However, I only like the Elemental Spec, and with Mage and Hunter I can switch to what ever is better. I can't do that with my Shaman.

  11. #2431
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Euroguy View Post
    However, I only like the Elemental Spec, and with Mage and Hunter I can switch to what ever is better. I can't do that with my Shaman.
    That is the benefit that a Pure class has. That isn't a bad reflection on Elemental, nor should it mean that Elemental should be 'always good' or something, to compensate for the pures being able to swap specs. Balance is on a spec by spec basis, and whilst the 'hybrid tax' isn't a thing anymore when you look purely from an individual spec PoV, being a hybrid will ALWAYS have this downside compared to pures. If you play a Hybrid that never uses any of their hybrid ability, then you will forever have a disadvantage compared to pures because of this.

    If gameplay isn't what motivates you (or at least performance motivates you more), and you don't make use of being able to go Resto or swap to be a melee as a Shaman, then yes you really should reroll to a pure DPS.

  12. #2432
    Your argument doesn't really hold much water for hybrid's in high end mythic raid environments. There's a huge difference in our mages going frost instead of fire, and me going ele instead of enhance.

  13. #2433
    Quote Originally Posted by Waylandyr View Post
    Your argument doesn't really hold much water for hybrid's in high end mythic raid environments. There's a huge difference in our mages going frost instead of fire, and me going ele instead of enhance.
    Problem is that gear-wise, in WoD you'll still need melee weapons, trinkets (maybe), rings and neck. for the other classes they can be servicable 1-to-1 going from Fire to Arcane to Frost. Rogues, hunters, mages and warlocks do not have this problem. (Neither do warriors or death knights to a lesser extent)

    Yes, stat priorities shift, but stat priorities are significantly closer across the board(though, mileage may vary) and you should suffer much less as a result for being mastery stacked in a class that likes mastery the least.

    It isn't really feasable for an elemental shaman with 0 enhancement gear to go enhancement every other encounter as it is for say, a rogue going from sublety to combat (he only needs to find a slow MH) or from combat to assassination (he needs to find two daggers, which if he's raiding as a rogue, he has a pretty good shot of getting dibs on)

    The Min/Max will still move and some concessions need to be made, but if your spec is tanking overall, you don't need to reroll to fix the problem; you just hop to a different spec.

  14. #2434
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    Problem is that gear-wise, in WoD you'll still need melee weapons, trinkets (maybe), rings and neck. for the other classes they can be servicable 1-to-1 going from Fire to Arcane to Frost. Rogues, hunters, mages and warlocks do not have this problem. (Neither do warriors or death knights to a lesser extent)

    Yes, stat priorities shift, but stat priorities are significantly closer across the board(though, mileage may vary) and you should suffer much less as a result for being mastery stacked in a class that likes mastery the least.

    It isn't really feasable for an elemental shaman with 0 enhancement gear to go enhancement every other encounter as it is for say, a rogue going from sublety to combat (he only needs to find a slow MH) or from combat to assassination (he needs to find two daggers, which if he's raiding as a rogue, he has a pretty good shot of getting dibs on)

    The Min/Max will still move and some concessions need to be made, but if your spec is tanking overall, you don't need to reroll to fix the problem; you just hop to a different spec.
    We're in agreement then? You basically expanded on what I was saying.

  15. #2435
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    That is the benefit that a Pure class has. That isn't a bad reflection on Elemental, nor should it mean that Elemental should be 'always good' or something, to compensate for the pures being able to swap specs. Balance is on a spec by spec basis, and whilst the 'hybrid tax' isn't a thing anymore when you look purely from an individual spec PoV, being a hybrid will ALWAYS have this downside compared to pures. If you play a Hybrid that never uses any of their hybrid ability, then you will forever have a disadvantage compared to pures because of this.

    If gameplay isn't what motivates you (or at least performance motivates you more), and you don't make use of being able to go Resto or swap to be a melee as a Shaman, then yes you really should reroll to a pure DPS.
    I don't agree with you here. for me, they have to do a good job with the hybrid specs because they can't assume I respec if my spec is shit.
    It is not just that I might not like the other specs, you won't have a raid spot automatically. a mage is always a range dd,
    for me playing a heal hybrid means I can throw in a heal when I need to and not that I can respec to heal. it is an advantage if I do but it isn't a requirement.

  16. #2436
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebria View Post
    I don't agree with you here. for me, they have to do a good job with the hybrid specs because they can't assume I respec if my spec is shit.
    It is not just that I might not like the other specs, you won't have a raid spot automatically. a mage is always a range dd,
    for me playing a heal hybrid means I can throw in a heal when I need to and not that I can respec to heal. it is an advantage if I do but it isn't a requirement.
    No, they can't assume that, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a possibility. They can't say "Mages are balanced because Arcane is good, doesn't matter that Fire sucks, just go Arcane", however you also can't ignore that if you want to pick a class purely for its performance capabilities, you have a better "chance" at being "good" if you pick a pure, because it is much, much easier to change spec than it is to change class.

    If your guild needs ranged DPS and Ele sucks, you have no immediate option to improve. If you are a Mage, you can spec change instantly to the current best spec. Gameplay wise that might suck because you hate how Arcane plays for example, but if gameplay is your major concern then there isn't an issue anyway. Sadly, it isn't possible for everyone to be perfectly happy with both gameplay AND performance, because it is pretty much impossible to perfectly balance both all of the time. You can perfectly balance numbers all the time by making everyone have 0 gameplay, you can make perfect gameplay by completely ignoring numbers, or you can do what Blizzard does and try to do as good a job as possible with both.

    From a purely DPS performance PoV, the benefit of being able to heal is completely useless*. If your absolute no. 1 priority is performance, a pure class will always be the best option (short of the 'real' best option that most top world guilds go for - play multiple classes), because you will have the best "chance" of being able to play a spec that is in the upper group of specs. If there are 24 DPS specs, having a choice of 3 will always be better than having a choice of 1. Simple statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waylandyr View Post
    Your argument doesn't really hold much water for hybrid's in high end mythic raid environments. There's a huge difference in our mages going frost instead of fire, and me going ele instead of enhance.
    But that is my point. If performance is your primary concern (which I assume is what you allude to with 'high end mythic raid environments'), then a pure DPS class is the class to go for, assuming your hybrid-abilities (being able to go Resto) isn't required. Some guilds might want someone able to swap between melee and ranged depending on encounters, so again Shaman (and Druids in this case) would be desirable, but in these two cases its not numbers that are driving decisions, but your particular raiding environment. If your only driver is numbers, then you really should be playing a pure, its just how it works. You are statistically more likely to be able to play a 'good' DPS spec if the class you play has more DPS specs to choose from.

    *EDIT: Just to clarify, when I say being a hybrid is useless to a DPS, I mean in terms of pure DPS performance. Obviously having utility capabilities is incredibly useful in a real raiding environment, but again, that is a driver outside of pure DPS performance. Whether that utility is worth the loss of potential performance gains you can get from playing a pure class is pretty much the choice all hybrids have to make. If it is worth it to you, or you simply love the gameplay enough, then you play the hybrid. If not, then you shouldn't.
    Last edited by mmoc63fa3da953; 2014-11-06 at 06:55 PM.

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