6.0 Shaman Info, Speculation, and Discussion!

[Protoman]

Technically you do need to have had a target to cast fire nova. Something has to have your flame shock on it, you just don't need to be currently targeting that target. I actually like enh shaman aoe. It's a lot better than when it exploded out from just your totem. Speaking of totems, you do have magma as a kind of 'set it and forget it' aoe. And you can throw in chain lightnings on maelstrom procs. Enh sham aoe is kind of a powerhouse.

The spec overall...I'm hesitant to ask for ability pruning, since I think Blizzard way overdid it on other classes, but enh shaman have a -lot- of tools at their disposal. In fact, I think it's just about right. It's pretty complex, but there's enough ezmode specs out there if you want simple combat. Damage numbers obviously need some tuning. I can't get addons to work, so I'm not sure exactly what dps I'm pulling but it doesn't seem very high. There's definitely no 'big burst numbers'. The biggest crits I've seen were like mid 20k, compared to say...ferocious bite 100k+ crits.

About Enhancement AoE:

At first I did not like Lava Lash spreading Flame Shocks for Fire Nova, but I have became used to it, and now with our cooldown being smaller, it is not as problematic like before. It is actually a cool AoE when Mobs last long enough that we can cast Fire Nova more than once.

Magma Totem was reworked, it now cast the first blast the moment we drop it, and while it still don't give kill credit, it is a lot better to use.

I know you need a target with FLS to use FN.... I was suggesting that you can use FN right away, regardless of FLS, on an enemy target.... just like Howling Blast. FN can be used right away, and if it hits multiple targets, it applies FLS to a few of them and then when you use FN again after the CD it will multiply based on how many active FLS's are up. It would keep the same spread mechanic we have, but it would spread thru FN not LL as well as not be dependent on FLS to use.

This would solve ALOT of problems, making it easier and more effective to use overall. It would behave just like other melee AoE's, cleaves and aoe spells that don't have anywhere near the same amount of requirements. Their AOE's are simpler and more effective.

It may be true that it's a little easier to use with shorter CD's, but I still think it's a very poorly designed AOE. When you take something like a hunter snake trap, with lots of low hp mobs... it is almost impossible to get your AOE started. That to me is a sign of a bad AOE design that is not well rounded. Blizz reviews other class abilities to make sure they function properly and "feel good".... I don't see why we have to settle for something subpar just because we can work around its flaws.

Glyphs are supposed to add something substantial, a cool extra to an already well designed class design, that works without.
Stuff like increased shead/shock range, GW being less bothered by snares, having snare procs in melee, totems to have more than 5 hp etc etc...those are not substantial improvements. It sucks to lose them. It is a nerf to lose them, but we do not have the freedom to get them back even so.

Ideally, we'd get a proper mobility tool, and this baseline nerf would be justified. I'd not be bothered with gw either (got removed now anyways though -_-)
Ideally also, they'd bake in LS glyph, like Healing Storm.

Still, the simple removal of shock range was a bullshit move. Shamans had 30y range with shocks since season 3. You cant convince me in saying we wont be noticably affected by getting a ~17% range reduction to the tools supposed to cover our lack of quality mobility tools.

I agree with you. Certain glyphs should be baseline at this point, it is long overdue. It boggles my mind why the shock range bonus became a glyph, since NO ONE will use it. Our shocks and wind shear should have a 30yd range baseline.... seriously. It should have been like that 2 expansions ago. I also think that the GW snare reduction glyph should have been baseline as well (it was in BC), especially with no proper gap closer this is an important tool in PVP to get some freedom of movement. Those two glyphs are long overdue to be incorporated into the class. The LS glyph is fairly new, but important with 10% damage reduction.... it would be nice to bake this into the class as well, considering our lack of defenses like CC or CD's (and gimped healing tree).... our self heals are pretty good on PTR right now tho so I won't say its necessary just yet.

I am amazed with how many crazy improvements other classes get, or just "givens" like Feral is supposed to be super mobile.... but we can't get some basic reliable buffs like 30yd shocks or some anti-snare on our GW. We have too many more important glyphs to ever consider those talents, even tho they are important to play well... especially with our current limitations (like mobility, closing gaps, ect).

[Omanley]

You're comparing multiple effects which all affect different spells, this simply doesn't have anything to discuss about because this comparison is so wrong.

Nope. A little handful of seconds more or less on a 30s+ cd wont make remotely as much a difference as a range loss, no matter the ability. They all do basically the same. A PS/DC/Trap/Blink will still work as always, just not as often. More often than not, you wont hit them on cooldown anyway, so the loss of the bonus will not be noticable even. Lower range meanwhile on an easily kitable spec will annoy, often.

Hamstring still exists, MS merely applies MS debuff.

So they reverted the auto apply? Well, even then, 3 Rage sounds negligible.

I'd say additional resource regeneration has an impact on gameplay, since it yields more damage.

Yes, and that is overruled by the numbers pass. You design the class to do enough damage without it, simple. If you, for example, design enh to do enough damage with a weak, 40% dmg wf, we're not dependant as much on the set bonus adding two extra strikes (not damage-wise, at least, the additional msw procs are still nice). How much RP is generated where, and how much RP abilities cost, is subject to the numbers pass, as is damage overall.
Utility isn't subject to the numbers pass though, so this range nerf hurts much more.

Considering that this merely applies for Resto / Balance, since Cyclone is a hardcast the piss poor does matter.

Claws of Shirvallah, the lvl100 talent for ferals, allows the usage of all non damage spells while in cat form, so it does apply for feral. And yes, it will matter for balance/resto. That said, I tend to focus on enh vs other melee comparisons.

Secondly, why are you suddenly comparing Gloves effects? Those effects over all 11 Classes are so different that comparing them generally yields nothing.

Because it was implied others were hurt as much as we were, which isn't true, and shown by comparing them. Throughput bonuses will be covered by the numbers pass, and cooldown reductions, while they at times, will be noticable, are much less likely to affect gameplay as much as losing range on the tools intended to allow us to gap close.
Being kited as enh, a caster using his spells on 30y will make him untouchable and uninterruptable for me, sitting in a frost nova. That's a huge nerf in situations such as this, which will happen often. Enhancement is supposed to have tools to interrupt and snare at range, because mobility is shit. Nerfing the range of those abilities matters, a lot. Our glove bonus loss is worse than others, that's why I compared them.
Yes, they are different. Different in that ours is more of a "fix" to our crappy base-design, just like many glyphs are. Only that, as a glyph bonus, at least we weren't expected to cut our own customisation options via glyphs even more, to keep it.

Unlike Warriors Enhance doesn't have Instant gap closers, so you need something that keeps the damage going while CD's are running, else you will just get kited.

Thank god, you DO get it. We suck at gap closing, that's why we need those 30y range on shear and FrS BASELINE. They are as optional as having GW snare repressal, Ascendence and Windwalk and shouldn't be put on a glyph.

And i doubt that Glyph that makes you unkiteable during CD's could be considered not mandatory.

You can still be cced, root/snare los'ed. And burst is out of the window to a large degree anyway. Neither Liquid Magma, nor Elemental Totems benefit from Ascendence, and Elemental Mastery is dispellable crap anyways. Ascendence in MoP is a mobility tool above all, and we need it just like we need high range Shear/FrS.

Resto & Ele are doing fine currently.
And i'm going to say that you probably still think that the current Shaman PvP design is also a "shit stain".

General shaman design is bad. There are times where you can, with one exceptional strenght or two, make your way. As soon as those face nerfs, you're garbage. Bad design. Enh in wotlk had wolves+BL as saving grace, Ele wotlk had lvb+BL. Take that away, suddenly dps shamans aren't all that great. In MoP, enh turned it all around with op Ascendence, which covered high damage, reliability in getting it out, and high selfheal, when combining it with AG, in one ability. Take that away, crappy spec. => Bad design.

Look at overall shaman utility, it's bad. Name me a single baseline shaman utility spell that is strong, and doesn't have to shy away from comparison to another, superior version, on another class. I dont know what's ele's current saving grace in MoP, but I'd guess they can do good burst, if they can survive long enough as a punching back to get a window in which they can bring it out. Again, one dimensional, bland, bad design. In WoD, ele is like to be even more of a punching back, due to lb on move gone.

Comparing FrS / Wind shear to Charge & Heroic Leap is baffling, Charge nor Heroic Leap is used during your standard damage rotation, Charge & Heroic Leap are meant to be used as "standard" interrupt, Charge also has just 25 yards range.

It's baffling because blizz expects them to be a replacement to what others use, but yes, it's an appropriate comparison. We interrupt and snare on range, to make our way into melee range, just as a warrior does with charge/leap. Frost Shock has always been used for utility, not damage. That they made it part of our "standard damage rotation", where it recides on the dead last place and is rarely ever used, changes nothing. It is still our sad excuse for gap closing utility.
And while the range of charge is the same, once you manage those 25y, you're instantly in melee range. Also, leap has 40y range and can be used for those times charge outrange is a problem. The leap cd is also reduced by anger management, if the warrior chooses it. Intervening an ally or thrown banner can also serve it's purpose. And as said, shamans have always been able to interrupt at 30y range, and were designed around it. Where are all the pvp buffs to make up for all the nerfs we got?

Indeed but unlike Tremor Psychic Scream is no longer a baseline spell, Wyvern Sting for example is a talented skill but easily counterable.

So what? Tremors' purpose is that of an aoe fear break. Since it doesn't perform well as such anymore come WoD, it's crap, no matter baseline or not. Are you saying CPT is fine being crap because baseline too? Are we expected to get the old fearbreak back with a glyph now too?
Saying "It's a talent" sounds like talents are supposed to be good, but a lot of shaman talents are crappy.

Wyvern sting, with the same cd as Hex, is castable on the move, has 0.2s lower cast time, takes control away completely and has 10y range more. I am not even sure wether or not you can interrupt it even. If with easily counterable you mean Tremor: You can bait Tremor through fake casting still and then destroy it, or make it irrelevant through a silence or such, casting Wyvern while he is silenced.

If every Priest runs around with Psychic Scream then it should be changed because the Tier is heavily unbalanced.

The alternatives are Mind Control (did anyone ever use it as a baseline skill, outside of ab suicide jumps and such?) and a multi-root. An instant aoe fear imo is easily the best. Considering priests dont have any cc outside of this talent, they will be highly reliant on it, so yes, go-to talent.

Wouldn't it be smarter to discuss, from your view, the weights on the camels back instead of the straw that broke it?

As I've done, like, hundreds of times, over the years? How much did that improve. Yes, we saw some of the things implemented I kept nagging about, but it's just never enough, and we get more nerfs than buffs, or halfheartedly implemented crap instead of well designed one.

Enhancement getting one, single, 15-25s cd gap closer that is of good quality, I'd shut up about Frost Shock/Shear range, GW glyph and EU perk all at once. Just freaking one will do! It would do so much for the sustained damage we're designed around now. It would greatly help with survivability as well.

And a totem overhaul, god, it's way overdue.

That's my two biggest wishes for shamans in general: Better mobility in esp pvp, and a totem overhaul. But we wont get it. We wont see pvp improvements, instead we see nerfs. So I complain.

You can play withou CPT Glyph and still use it, people who manage to kill it will do it whether it has 3 Sec charge or 5 sec.

CPT is a throw-away skill. Even those few gladiator enh shamans pop it, as they say, on a wing and prayer. There are those who destroy it, but 3s and 5s is a big difference. Human reaction time is at least 1s (in very fast cases, olympic level). Many people will be to slow in destroying it with a 3s charge up. I'm not saying it would be perfect though. I'm just saying it is garbage w/o the glyph. Less garbage if we had at least the glyph baseline.

That is the kind of exaggeration i have a problem with.

I fully acknowledge that it will be worse than before, they could make this glyph baseline, it would be okay for me but calling Shock / Wind Shear garbage because a previously "baseline" effect was changed into a major glyph is just whining, especially if there is an actual greater complaint behind it.

Frost Nova => Blink+walk 2 steps => Frostbolt...out of windshear range. It's one of the most often encountered ability combinations in pvp, with mages being the most represented dmg caster, and everyone being frost. Windshear, in those scenarios, will be garbage, due to this nerf. Will it be garbage in every scenario? No. But in a lot of scenarios it wasn't garbage before, it will be now.

The problem here is that, mandatory is very often dependant on the situation or rather the comp you face, if you're up against Pally / Mage, you'll take the SR Glyph above anything else.

Mandatory means you'll used it EVERY MATCH. -10% dmg (with LS glyph) is not optional, unless you're a tank spec.
If they didn't make HS glyph baseline, it'd be mandatory still as well. SR is not mandatory. As I explained, it is one of the okay glyphs, as they are good vs certain comps, and up to customisation.

Making Glyphs baseline simply doesn't solve anything if you think that the actual issue lies somewhere else, wanting to throw intended class design (=choice between glyphs) on the fire because you actually want something else isn't good design either.

If the ability in question requires the glyph as a fix, it solves everything. If the glyph turned baseline is required to solve a general problem (such as general low mobility), and can solve the problem, but there are other options to reach that goal.
For example, while enhance's mobility issues would be more or less fixed if Windwalk was turned into a baseline 15s cd with lowered duration (what glyph does but more extreme), we could solve the problem with a mobility talent tier (like druids) as well, or could just get a new baseline ability, like a leap/charge.

Enhancement needs a sufficient base for glyphs to be, well, based on. Imo a good part are band-aids to shitty base specs, others so strong they are not an option. I want the band-aids incorporated at least, and see either buffs to the weaker glyphs, or nerfs to the mandatory ones. The +range glyph is a band-aid, and should be baseline. It's not an interesting choice to take the glyph, but something to make FrS not easily exploitable, like GW, CPT and other abilities.

[Deleted]

Finally I got the chance to try out the ptr. I'm tested shaman at lvl 90. I was an elemental before never played enhacement, but I'm really interested in it, so yould you guys tell me the basic rotation of wod enha shaman ?

[Kralljin]

Nope. A little handful of seconds more or less on a 30s+ cd wont make remotely as much a difference as a range loss, no matter the ability. They all do basically the same. A PS/DC/Trap/Blink will still work as always, just not as often. More often than not, you wont hit them on cooldown anyway, so the loss of the bonus will not be noticable even. Lower range meanwhile on an easily kitable spec will annoy, often.

Being CC'd more often may also win a match, especially on long running matches.

Yes, and that is overruled by the numbers pass. You design the class to do enough damage without it, simple. If you, for example, design enh to do enough damage with a weak, 40% dmg wf, we're not dependant as much on the set bonus adding two extra strikes (not damage-wise, at least, the additional msw procs are still nice). How much RP is generated where, and how much RP abilities cost, is subject to the numbers pass, as is damage overall.

The Runic power / energy cost of damage abilities is rarely changed because it has a fundamental impact on PvE, more often the cost of utility skills like BoS are changed.

You can still be cced, root/snare los'ed.

You mean like almost every other Melee that doesn't blow stuff like CoS / AMS for offensive purposes?

Neither Liquid Magma, nor Elemental Totems benefit from Ascendence, and Elemental Mastery is dispellable crap anyways.

If you want that, then you go back to the point where you have to wait 3 minutes to kill an opponent.

General shaman design is bad. There are times where you can, with one exceptional strenght or two, make your way. As soon as those face nerfs, you're garbage. Bad design. Enh in wotlk had wolves+BL as saving grace, Ele wotlk had lvb+BL. Take that away, suddenly dps shamans aren't all that great. In MoP, enh turned it all around with op Ascendence, which covered high damage, reliability in getting it out, and high selfheal, when combining it with AG, in one ability. Take that away, crappy spec. => Bad design.

Elemental mainly relies on bursting down people and not lock them down like Frost Mages, sure Mages shine because they have a lot of CC, but Elemental shines with the insane burst, if the burst is shit then Elemental is shit, the major difference is that Burst is much more easily broken "by accident" (= PvE changes) than CC spells.

Name me a single baseline shaman utility spell that is strong, and doesn't have to shy away from comparison to another, superior version, on another class.

Baseline ranged interrupt, of course i'm stepping into a wasp nest with this argument but a low cd combined with Range shines above any other interrupt, especially in WoD with blanket Silence gone.

Grounding totem, soaking CC spells / CB's on anyone in your team is sure nice, considering that it also works on Brain Freeze is sometimes quite neat vs Dk's.

I dont know what's ele's current saving grace in MoP, but I'd guess they can do good burst, if they can survive long enough as a punching back to get a window in which they can bring it out. Again, one dimensional, bland, bad design. In WoD, ele is like to be even more of a punching back, due to lb on move gone.

You should know it, if you have some PvP Experience, because Elemental is quite dominant in MoP.

1.Multi Dot FS
2.Get Lava Surge Procs
3.Throw multiple Instant Lava Bursts at people
4.Hope for a streak from point 3

Lb on the move being removes doesn't hurt Elemental as much as some people say in PvP, in PvP you deal damage through Lava Burst not Lb, Lb just pokes people and is there for generating LS Charges for Fulmination, you kill people through Fulmination & multiple Lava Surge procs.

Elemental doesn't rely on Ascendance to kill people, if you blow Ascendance people will blow their Def CD's & throw their Instant CC's at you, after that they're often very vulnuerable for unpredictable burst, which is something that Elemental is able to pull off.

And as said, shamans have always been able to interrupt at 30y range, and were designed around it. Where are all the pvp buffs to make up for all the nerfs we got?

Personally i consider the removal of blanket Silence a buff for Shaman because silence fucked Shaman hard since 5.1..

Or the insane selfhealing capabilities, but to make this one out one should do some PvP on Beta and see how the general gameplay looks like.

So what? Tremors' purpose is that of an aoe fear break. Since it doesn't perform well as such anymore come WoD, it's crap, no matter baseline or not.

A lot of stuff is now on the same DR school.

For example, Fear spells are now on the same DR school as Blind and Cyclone.

With the current Tremor totem any Druid / Warlock comp would have serious troubles CC'ing anyone because their CC spells share the same DR school and the Shaman can break any warlock cc at will once every minute on the entire team.

Being able to tremor a CC spell is a huge gain in WoD because it puts a shitload of other CC's on DR.

Are you saying CPT is fine being crap because baseline too?

It needs a shift from duration to reliability if you ask me.

Saying "It's a talent" sounds like talents are supposed to be good, but a lot of shaman talents are crappy.

I think a talent shouldn't be countered half of the time because of a baseline skill, especially on the entire team.

If with easily counterable you mean Tremor: You can bait Tremor through fake casting still and then destroy it, or make it irrelevant through a silence or such, casting Wyvern while he is silenced.

You mean with the silence that Hunters no longer have?

And as i said, it is a huge boon to counter a CC in WoD.

I mean there it will a game just like standard fake casting.

Wyvern sting would be quite useless if a Shaman can counter it without any effort half of the time, even with the WoD version you are forced to use it on Shaman for 50% of the time, i mean then you even have to use it on CD every single time, if you wait 15seconds, tremor is back and you have to deal with that first.

The alternatives are Mind Control (did anyone ever use it as a baseline skill, outside of ab suicide jumps and such?) and a multi-root. An instant aoe fear imo is easily the best. Considering priests dont have any cc outside of this talent, they will be highly reliant on it, so yes, go-to talent.

Which is more a concern of Priest design, not Shaman.

Frost Nova => Blink+walk 2 steps => Frostbolt...out of windshear range. It's one of the most often encountered ability combinations in pvp, with mages being the most represented dmg caster, and everyone being frost.

You do realise that Mage will have a Blink perk which gives them a 2sec 60% sprint? With that, they hardly care about if they have to walk 2 more steps.

Even then, you still have grounding to fall back on.

Mandatory means you'll used it EVERY MATCH. -10% dmg (with LS glyph) is not optional, unless you're a tank spec.

That the LS Glyph is pretty mandatory for Shaman is obvious, yeah, the effect should become baseline or compensated somewhere else.

For example, while enhance's mobility issues would be more or less fixed if Windwalk was turned into a baseline 15s cd with lowered duration (what glyph does but more extreme), we could solve the problem with a mobility talent tier (like druids) as well, or could just get a new baseline ability, like a leap/charge.

A minor HoF for the entire team on a 15sec cd?

I could live with a short timed sprint if you go into GW, but that one is freaking overpowered.

Enhancement needs a sufficient base for glyphs to be, well, based on. Imo a good part are band-aids to shitty base specs, others so strong they are not an option. I want the band-aids incorporated at least, and see either buffs to the weaker glyphs, or nerfs to the mandatory ones. The +range glyph is a band-aid, and should be baseline. It's not an interesting choice to take the glyph, but something to make FrS not easily exploitable, like GW, CPT and other abilities.

I think the major problem simply lies within the LS Glyph and, to an extent, in totemic vigor.

The LS Glyph is currently simply mandatory for Elemental / Enhance because you're very often focused, or at least there's no team that would never consider focusing the Shaman.

If the LS Glyph would be gone, you could easily take the Shocks one against ranged caster cleaves while considering not to take it against double Melee cleaves, if they focus you, you can choose to fight in Shock range of the enemy healer and you'll be fine without the 5 yard extra range.

[tru]

Finally I got the chance to try out the ptr. I'm tested shaman at lvl 90. I was an elemental before never played enhacement, but I'm really interested in it, so yould you guys tell me the basic rotation of wod enha shaman ?

Try reading through the spell book... its not rocket science.
Interested so you need someone to tell you what to do?

[Hekili]

Try reading through the spell book... its not rocket science.
Interested so you need someone to tell you what to do?

That wasn't very helpful.

The current single-target priority list is basically:

1. Searing Totem up.
2*. Liquid Magma, if you talented for it, and your Fire totem will be up 15+ seconds.
3. Unleash Elements if you have Unleashed Fury.
4. Elemental Blast if you have it, with 1 or more MW stacks.
5. Lightning Bolt with 5 stacks, 4 stacks and no Ascendance, or 3 stacks + Ancestral Swiftness.
6. Stormstrike/Windstrike.
7. Lava Lash.
8. Flame Shock with <9 seconds left, unless you have Elemental Fusion, then use it with 2 stacks of EF when there's <16 seconds of Flame Shock left.
9. Unleash Elements.
10. Frost Shock, if you don't have Elemental Fusion, or if Flame Shock has >16 seconds left.
11. Lightning Bolt with 1+ stacks, not in Ascendance.
12. Refresh Searing Totem with < 20 seconds remaining, if you don't have Liquid Magma up at the moment.

Note that I include Liquid Magma as single-target and don't hold onto it as a cooldown, since every 5 seconds you delay LM is ~11% damage lost from the ability. I treat it as rotational.

[Omanley]

Being CC'd more often may also win a match, especially on long running matches.

Usually though, you try to set up several ccs for a kill though, instead of ccing on cd.

The Runic power / energy cost of damage abilities is rarely changed because it has a fundamental impact on PvE, more often the cost of utility skills like BoS are changed.

The pvp set bonuses increase damage. As I said, with the dmg reshuffle of the numbers pass, the glove bonus turns negligible, if they fine tune pve vs pvp with those set bonuses.
The only thing to consider utility-wise would be the new enh set bonus that reduces time being cced. That said, it doesn't improve gap closing, really, causes wolves to pull triple duty, both for damage, healing, and cc reduction, and has to be used as a preemptive meassure. It sounds good, and maybe they considered that if we can cut down cc durations like that, we need to be nerfed in interrupting those casts on range, but even if that were the case, it still wouldn't justifiy the nerf to gap closing, or to interrupt dmg casts outside of 25y.

You mean like almost every other Melee that doesn't blow stuff like CoS / AMS for offensive purposes?

You claimed Ascendence makes us unkitable. Well, it doesn't. A warrior would instead leap towards the pillar and continue dpsing, BoS would be superior also, same as an instant gap closer, before LoSed. And besides, you deflect the essence of my line. Your argument that shocks/shear work just fine even with the nerf was negated, as Ascendence with the ranged aspect would be the same crappy thing, only that you put some invisible line somewhere and try to argue that that would be something different.

If you want that, then you go back to the point where you have to wait 3 minutes to kill an opponent.

Again, missed the essence of my comment. The essence is: 1) Ascendence is not needed for cds, and 2) "During cooldowns" doesn't mean much, because we are more of a sustained spec now. Enh needs a frequently avaiable high quality mobility tool, instead it gets nerfs to the low quality stuff it has to make do with.
I'm not asking for the old burst back (though getting an almost certain kill once every 3s is better than none at all). I'm asking for blizz to give us the mobility to make sustained work.

Elemental mainly relies on bursting down people and not lock them down like Frost Mages, sure Mages shine because they have a lot of CC, but Elemental shines with the insane burst, if the burst is shit then Elemental is shit, the major difference is that Burst is much more easily broken "by accident" (= PvE changes) than CC spells.

You said it. Ele is so one-dimensional, it can only throw rock. For one, melees are strong vs casters atm. That means a weak tool kit will make you a easily drainable and shut down sand sack. So much for burst. And pve balance may wreck also, if unlucky. Having a good utility kit makes you good for all seasons. Tell me when last frost was horrible? Or rogues? Or hunters? Having lots of high quality tools can easily substitute lacking burst, but nothing can substitute a lack of utility.
Let's say frost is very bursty during a season or two? What's ele's strong point then, in comparison?

Baseline ranged interrupt, of course i'm stepping into a wasp nest with this argument but a low cd combined with Range shines above any other interrupt, especially in WoD with blanket Silence gone.

12s vs 15s is not really low. And the range is needed, because no gap closer. Even during 5s (talented) cd times, enh wasn't exactly fotm. It was simply how it made up for low mobility. If you're comparing it to counterspell (vs elemental): Yes, it has a lower cd, and a lower lockout time. In fact, the overall lockout time is the same (12s/3s vs 24/6s), plus, 40y range on cs.

Grounding totem, soaking CC spells / CB's on anyone in your team is sure nice, considering that it also works on Brain Freeze is sometimes quite neat vs Dk's.

Spell Reflect is, in a lot of ways, stronger. Undestroyable, not locking out other utility, usable while silenced (very important), actually throwing stuff back... GT is not bad, and "not bad" is about the best we can hope for.

You should know it, if you have some PvP Experience, because Elemental is quite dominant in MoP.
1.Multi Dot FS 2.Get Lava Surge Procs 3.Throw multiple Instant Lava Bursts at people 4.Hope for a streak from point 3

So if LvB does weak damage (I've heart it mentioned that it's not very impressive atm, but maybe that has already changed/still will), the spec is pooped? Good to now. Outside of that, a lot of defensive dispell or simply bad rng, and that's it, burst-wise. Even if ele turned out really strong in WoD. If 95% of that was of damage, it'd be still design fail. Shamans are the masters of the elements, the spirits and ancestors, they imbue weapons and totems and wear elemental shields, and all it comes down to is "they deal damage well". Awesome.

Personally i consider the removal of blanket Silence a buff for Shaman because silence fucked Shaman hard since 5.1..

Uhm, silence spells do still exist, afaik. Didn't they only remove silences attached to interrupts (i.e., counterspell)?

Or the insane selfhealing capabilities, but to make this one out one should do some PvP on Beta and see how the general gameplay looks like.

Didn't seem that impressive, watching yt vids (dont have beta access). It seems to come down to msw heals, which means great dmg sacrifices due to lb still dealing quit some damage. That plus the healing nerfs we got through AG, HST, HTT and burst nerf (AG) makes me sceptical.

With the current Tremor totem any Druid / Warlock comp would have serious troubles CC'ing anyone because their CC spells share the same DR school and the Shaman can break any warlock cc at will once every minute on the entire team.

That's actually a good point.
I've wondered this before, myself. Does it actually affect these other spells now?
It also comes downsides for us though, even if it does. For example would warriors be able to bersi-rage our Hex (as it's incapacitate now, apparently).
Looking at how druids are already immune to it...

It needs a shift from duration to reliability if you ask me.

I agree. They could make it a shadowfury clone. And improvement it would be, yes. Imo, not my preference. I'd rather have a single target, 5s stun. Easy to balance, easy to make use of.

I think a talent shouldn't be countered half of the time because of a baseline skill, especially on the entire team.

There's one single class that happens to counter it. And only half of the time, and you can even silence the shaman and then fear, or bait the totem, destroy it, and then fear. Others have cc breaks as well. TT isn't that special. Being instant and aoe is strong, so I dont think it's op to counter half of those, esp if the priest doesn't do anything to prevent those halves.

You mean with the silence that Hunters no longer have?

Or such means any short duration ability preventing the shaman from planting a totem. Scatter shot, or an ally may silence instead. Not that hard to pull of, I believe.

Which is more a concern of Priest design, not Shaman.

It is, as we're on the other side of it. I'd be fine if they gave priests to other nice cc options, and made TT more useful again. A priest could then simply decide to take a talent more fitting against shaman opponents.

You do realise that Mage will have a Blink perk which gives them a 2sec 60% sprint? With that, they hardly care about if they have to walk 2 more steps.
Even then, you still have grounding to fall back on.

Yes, I know about the perk. Your point? They still walk those 2 steps to outrange windshear. and GT by itself doesn't replace the loss of shear range, esp since we cannot control which spell it will be consumed by.

A minor HoF for the entire team on a 15sec cd?
I could live with a short timed sprint if you go into GW, but that one is freaking overpowered.

I meant Spiritwalk, sorry. I'm talking about a ~6-8s sprint, with snare/root removal. Given that blizz doesn't see BoS or shapeshifting as op, why would this be?

If the LS Glyph would be gone, you could easily take the Shocks one against ranged caster cleaves while considering not to take it against double Melee cleaves, if they focus you, you can choose to fight in Shock range of the enemy healer and you'll be fine without the 5 yard extra range.

In theory, yes. I'd probably still choose other glyphs, like CPT, GW, Spiritwalk, SR, Purge, and so on.

[Kralljin]

The pvp set bonuses increase damage. As I said, with the dmg reshuffle of the numbers pass, the glove bonus turns negligible, if they fine tune pve vs pvp with those set bonuses.

Gloves bonus is gone in WoD, the point is that certain Gloves effects, dk for example, generated resources which in turn increased your damage output.

You claimed Ascendence makes us unkitable. Well, it doesn't.

On the other hand, Enhance doesn't care about roots during Ascendance until the target is LoS or out of range, even then you can still fall back on Spirit walk / Wind Walk to break roots.

And besides, you deflect the essence of my line. Your argument that shocks/shear work just fine even with the nerf was negated

The essence of both spells still work, they still slow / interrupt and they do it on range far greater than Melee range.

Again, missed the essence of my comment. The essence is: 1) Ascendence is not needed for cds, and 2) "During cooldowns" doesn't mean much

Then you should phrase it better because your original comment sounded like "Talents don't affect Ascendance and that's bad".

because we are more of a sustained spec now. Enh needs a frequently avaiable high quality mobility tool, instead it gets nerfs to the low quality stuff it has to make do with.

I think the mindset you have is that practically any team has a Frost mage that locks down any Melee, Frost Mage is next to hunter the god of kiting melees in WoW, just because you can't stick to these 2 guys doesn't mean that you can't stick to any ranged.

You said it. Ele is so one-dimensional, it can only throw rock. For one, melees are strong vs casters atm. That means a weak tool kit will make you a easily drainable and shut down sand sack.

I'm used to being focused as Elemental, handling the focus properly is a basic requirement for this spec.
Even if they focus you, most of your damage still comes from instant spells, while the constant stuns fuck off and your own inability to properly kite, Elemental is still strong, despite being focused he can dish huge burst out of nowhere.

So much for burst. And pve balance may wreck also, if unlucky. Having a good utility kit makes you good for all seasons. Tell me when last frost was horrible? Or rogues? Or hunters? Having lots of high quality tools can easily substitute lacking burst, but nothing can substitute a lack of utility.

And what is your solution, then? Give everyone the same tools that in case they fuck things up they fall have something to fall back on?

And the range is needed, because no gap closer.

So? You said :

Name me a single baseline shaman utility spell that is strong, and doesn't have to shy away from comparison to another, superior version, on another class.

suddenly bringing in other types of spells is not something you have asked for.

Even during 5s (talented) cd times, enh wasn't exactly fotm.

Because a short timed interrupt doesn't make a not so good spec overpowered, but it still is a good spell.

But a short time in Wotlk showed what Enhance can do with a high uptime.

If you're comparing it to counterspell (vs elemental): Yes, it has a lower cd, and a lower lockout time. In fact, the overall lockout time is the same (12s/3s vs 24/6s), plus, 40y range on cs.

Still Wind Shear allows you to prevent much more cc's / heals to land on a target.

Spell Reflect is, in a lot of ways, stronger. Undestroyable, not locking out other utility, usable while silenced (very important), actually throwing stuff back... GT is not bad, and "not bad" is about the best we can hope for.

Spell reflect doesn't affect the entire group, unless you take mass spell reflection but that one has a 1min CD and takes away your solo Spell reflect in WoD.

So if LvB does weak damage (I've heart it mentioned that it's not very impressive atm, but maybe that has already changed/still will), the spec is pooped? Good to now.

Considering that you can generate LS Charges through Lvb, Fulmination becomes a real hard hitter, Shocks deal serious damage for instant spells (especially with EF), Ascendance granting immunity to Interrupt / Silence effects, you are not as dependant on Lvb damage alone.

Outside of that, a lot of defensive dispell or simply bad rng, and that's it, burst-wise. Even if ele turned out really strong in WoD. If 95% of that was of damage, it'd be still design fail. Shamans are the masters of the elements, the spirits and ancestors, they imbue weapons and totems and wear elemental shields, and all it comes down to is "they deal damage well". Awesome.

Your utility spells / skills need to support your playstyle, but not neccesarily be the center of it.

If burst is what makes your spec great, then you'll suck without burst, but that doesn't mean the rest of your toolkit can be useless just because you can burst.

Even if i can burst a lot as Elemental, because I'm being a rather easy focus target i need to keep CC's away from my healer, Wind Shear / Grounding / Tremor do just that, if i don't properly use these tools then i'll simply die no matter how good my burst is.

Uhm, silence spells do still exist, afaik. Didn't they only remove silences attached to interrupts (i.e., counterspell)?

Merely two classes with Silence exist, Dk and Sp, both are even dispellable by your healer.

I've wondered this before, myself. Does it actually affect these other spells now?
It also comes downsides for us though, even if it does. For example would warriors be able to bersi-rage our Hex (as it's incapacitate now, apparently).

Possibly, but not sure if it would be intended.

Hex tooltip still states that the target is unable to use any skills / spells while the tooltip from gouge / Repentance just says "Incapacitates" the target, maybe Berserker Rage merely applies for effect that instantly break on damage.

I agree. They could make it a shadowfury clone. And improvement it would be, yes. Imo, not my preference. I'd rather have a single target, 5s stun. Easy to balance, easy to make use of.

Or simply killing it yields direct discharge, stun duration based on the time left.

There's one single class that happens to counter it. And only half of the time, and you can even silence the shaman and then fear, or bait the totem, destroy it, and then fear. Others have cc breaks as well. TT isn't that special. Being instant and aoe is strong, so I dont think it's op to counter half of those, esp if the priest doesn't do anything to prevent those halves.

If it would just work on the Shaman, it would be okay but since it works on the entire group, it is different.

If your entire team is hit a psychic scream then you made a grave positioning error, the consequence is that your entire team is cc'd now, which might cost you the match, with a Shaman it's fine for 50% of the time to make this error.

Even in WoD you just have to use a single trinket to fix the error easily, since the CD from Psychic scream goes up, you just can just use it 3 times before trinkets are back.

Or such means any short duration ability preventing the shaman from planting a totem. Scatter shot, or an ally may silence instead. Not that hard to pull of, I believe.

Since Silence effects are rather rare in WoD, i'm not sure if people want to use a silence effect on an Enhance to land a CC, even then you might avoid it if your healer has a good reaction and dispel is off cd.

And Scatter shot is gone in WoD, almost any Ranged Instant CC is gone. (Don't ask me how Hunters land Freezing trap in WoD)

Yes, I know about the perk. Your point? They still walk those 2 steps to outrange windshear. and GT by itself doesn't replace the loss of shear range, esp since we cannot control which spell it will be consumed by.

That it even with 30yards Shock range, they will have an easier time to outrange Wind Shear in WoD.

I meant Spiritwalk, sorry. I'm talking about a ~6-8s sprint, with snare/root removal. Given that blizz doesn't see BoS or shapeshifting as op, why would this be?

For BoS, maybe the 30 energy cost might balance this spell, i'd say it put a 45 energy cost on it or bring back the old mechanic that it just removes snares.

For Shapeshifting, i see that Druids want to keep the Shapeshift bonus, which is okay, since it is an old druid mechanic, but then Displacer Beast / Wild Charge / Dash / Stampeding Roar / Skull bash should be a target.

Ferals simply have too much on top of shapeshifting that they don't even rely on it anymore.

I mean Ferals can be the class that naturally has a high uptime, but that's just too much what they have currently.

[Tyze]

I actually have a real issue about Multistrike, we were the only class that could make a second spell trigger after using one. Now everyone has that feature?? Is it just me that cares about this? The new mastery.. It okey, pretty cool thing. But i rather be the only class that can trigger a second spell, now I do t feel that Shamans are unique

[Triggered Fridgekin]

I actually have a real issue about Multistrike, we were the only class that could make a second spell trigger after using one. Now everyone has that feature?? Is it just me that cares about this? The new mastery.. It okey, pretty cool thing. But i rather be the only class that can trigger a second spell, now I do t feel that Shamans are unique

While everyone has access to it, Elemental Shamans are the kings of Multistrike so there's that.

[Muffinator]

I actually have a real issue about Multistrike, we were the only class that could make a second spell trigger after using one. Now everyone has that feature?? Is it just me that cares about this? The new mastery.. It okey, pretty cool thing. But i rather be the only class that can trigger a second spell, now I do t feel that Shamans are unique

Elemental shamans DO have +20% multistrike base. They are still the masters of it.

I felt much like this when lots of casters started being able to dps while running, where as a hunter that used to be our specialty.

Thankfully that's being changed.

[Satori]

Also (I could be totally wrong here) Ele shamans are the only class to have multistrike visually trigger another spell. For the other classes it's just extra numbers.

[Nebria]

Also (I could be totally wrong here) Ele shamans are the only class to have multistrike visually trigger another spell. For the other classes it's just extra numbers.

thought the same but after Lavindar said I'm wrong I did some testing. each class has an additional animation triggered. is it just very hard to see cause it isn't working like our old mastery where there is some time between original and copied cast. multistrike casts are much faster after each other. the second animation overlaps with the first one. this is why you don't notice it that much.

[chairmanmao]

Is anyone actually reading the multiquote garbage posts? PM each other or something.

[Deleted]

Is anyone actually reading the multiquote garbage posts? PM each other or something.

Dunno, the same people are still defending poor class design of shaman in 6.0 for months now. I dont know what satisfaction it gives them to constantly argue over facts.

[Murderdoll]

Whats really frustrating is, the same issues we are having now have been poking their heads out since Cataclysm.

The totem system is only getting worse. Our damage sources are still very plentiful with our class defining abilities (Stormstrike and Lava Lash) are still falling by the wayside.

AoE I can handle. Ive come to accept that we have strong burst/single target but weak snap AoE. Its still a little weird in some instances but it has its place and thats fine.

There are positives here, I like what theyre doing to Wolves and the shift to more active damage is promising but still needs to be more.

[jayinjersey]

Is AoC being bugged on the PTR 6.0 a known issue?

[Protoman]

Whats really frustrating is, the same issues we are having now have been poking their heads out since Cataclysm.

The totem system is only getting worse. Our damage sources are still very plentiful with our class defining abilities (Stormstrike and Lava Lash) are still falling by the wayside.

AoE I can handle. Ive come to accept that we have strong burst/single target but weak snap AoE. Its still a little weird in some instances but it has its place and thats fine.

There are positives here, I like what theyre doing to Wolves and the shift to more active damage is promising but still needs to be more.

Yea. Totems are bad.... but if they made Totemic persistance and projection baseline, then they would be just fine. The annoying restrictions would be gone, and we would finally have some control over them..... stuff like CPT stun would be eaiser to deal with as well as having both earth elemental and ebind for example. It would also let them create new totems without interfering with existing ones (like all the water totems that have 30 sec cd, 15 sec durations and stuff).

For SS and LL.... it seems they are getting better, in PTR atleast they do good damage and more then LB. I just wish there was more to our rotation.... something to build up to. They spent time to give ret pallys holy power and a buildup mechanic, I thnk we are due for one. At this point, it is completely "whack a mole", waiting for things to be off CD.... this happens more frequently now too with the haste CD reduction and stuff like EotE. Its fun to use your strikes more often, but it just feels totally random. Even something simple like after 3 SS your LL does double damage would be cool..... then you can use that buffed LL for extra burst when you need it.

Shocks are still annoying me.... should have never removed Earth Shock. Frost shock as our only burst shock will lead to problems in PVP.... and I can't see how our lvl 100 talent for shocks as Enhance will work since we will use shocks at same rate as LL meaning we will never get 2 stacks of that buff.

And L100 talents just piss me off. Seriously. What poor design, so underwhelming. I get really furious when I see them and how they compare to any other class/spec..... they made unique talents for all 4 druid specs and couldn't even bother making something fun/creative/useful for Shaman. Other classes got talents that helped streamline rotations (like necrotic plague for DK), made abilities more potent (like ret pally having all holy finisher which also buffs their aoe), or made rotations more complex (like monk talent that changes based on chi)..... we got some generic CRAP.

We haven't heard a single thing from Blizz.... any valid complaints are dismissed or they say its fine.

[Raiju]

Is AoC being bugged on the PTR 6.0 a known issue?

You mean being 1.5%~? It's been on the forums for a few weeks at least. Guildie said blizzard responded in tweet but I haven't seen that personally.

[Deleted]

You mean being 1.5%~? It's been on the forums for a few weeks at least. Guildie said blizzard responded in tweet but I haven't seen that personally.

It will be fixed, reason why it's bugged is the scaling of it isn't implemented yet or as i havent tested it yet just a tooltip issue. It will be as powerful at 90 but gradually scaled down up to 1.5 at 100. I cant find the source right now sorry.