There has to be some sort of minimum level thats at least not a laughable joke. I do know this, at what point is it too easy? The current point, right now at this point of time it is much too easy and because of that, not fun at all...how could it be?So tell me Grogo, at what point is it difficult enough? when you have to have a full group just to quest at all? A game already tried that and WoW nearly put them out of business.
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I usually keep two active MMO subs and right now that's both Warcraft and SWTOR. I mention this because in TOR the melee tanks (Jedi Guardian, Sith Juggernaut) both play very much like vanilla WoW warriors. To maintain threat you practically have to constantly tab target, apply sundering strikes, use hilt bash and force sweep (equivalent to thunderclap) every cooldown, and manage your damaging abilities to strike a happy balance between threat management, DPS, and talent linked mitigation abilities. I'm fairly decent at it but you know what?
It just isn't fun. It's tedious to the nth degree. It's why my Guardian is on the shelf. It's why I got to 60 on a Vanilla WoW warrior and went back to DPS. The skills needed aren't really that hard and with WoW's addons the skill curve is lessened... but, again, it wasn't fun. Micromanaging threat, having to pay attention to damn near every skill you have bound, having to be nearly flawless in your rotation to maintain threat or risk losing mobs (and subsequently being blamed for a bad pull).. No thank you.
The changes to threat and the rise of active mitigation takes some of the tedium off of the plate of tanks and makes it easier for them to be the meatshields they're supposed to be. Threat shouldn't be a separate "thing" for tanks.
Sub numbers disagree with you.
Financial numbers disagree with you.
So to quote "The Dude": That's just like.. your opinion, man.
Just read a bit through the comments in this thread... Call me weird, but I enjoy stuff like threat mangement, resource management(mana) and limited CC. I find it fun. I like organizing, and these are aspects that made teamwork feel organized and that there was a thread through it all, keeping it together.
None of the above works in the current game though, which is a heavy shame in my opinion.
Having to do LFR with the worst the community has to offer is fine?
People are being scared away from tanking due to LFR and it's fine?
BC heroic dungeons were more difficult primarily because there were few catch-up mechanisms for gear. The majority of the playerbase was essentially stuck wearing normal dungeon blues with perhaps a drop or two from Karazhan (those that did raid). The relative few that had common success in BC heroics found themselves collecting badges for a very long time before they were able to buy anything from that vendor.I disagree. Vanilla and BC were a much better level. How can you even compare then to the current reality. Come on dude, lets keep it real.
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It used to work like this: (5 mans)
Release of 5 man
Go in, have to be on the ball to succeed in a timely manner
Not ready? Didn't go well first time in? Take some more time to gear up a little better to bring down difficulty
As you geared up it became easier, as you got into raid gear, even easier
Meshed together - gear - skill - time
Even in Wrath, the heroics were relatively easy, but you could still wipe on some of them. It's pretty much impossible to wipe in MOP heroics unless you are trying really hard or playing with people asleep at the wheel. Remember the Oculus heroic? I recall wiping on that because people didn't understand how to use the drakes correctly. There WERE some challenges in 5 mans in prior expansions. Blizz attempted to revive that in Cataclysm but was shouted down immediately when people hit 85. Those heroics didn't stay difficult for very long and that's a shame.
Last edited by Varabently; 2014-02-18 at 05:32 PM.
Running around like an idiot trying to contain all of the mobs because you have limited abilities to keep threat - and the fact that tanks get tasked with yet another resource to manage - is idiotic. It's a relic of the Holy Trinity MMOs and its one reason why the MMO market is greatly diminishing. Us MMO old farts are tired of the same, bland, EverQuest style design.
Again, threat should not be an additional "thing" that only one subset of one particular class type should be forced to deal with. BTW, there's a common complaint between WOW and TOR right now. Care to guess what it is?
Almost no one ran strat/scholo 5-man at Vanilla release, they ran them as 20+ raids instead (until Blizzard removed it and retuned them). After that, they were pretty enjoyable dungeons that did not require warriors to even be protection spec in most groups. I had a lot of good times there.
Jump forward to TBC, prot and heal specs required but it was all about gear. Get lucky enough to have a tank with some raid gear? heroic dungeon suddenly a lot easier. I'm not going to really say they were all that fun. There was several anti-fun things revolving around them - like the frustration of finding people with keys and them not realizing they didn't have the key on that character until they tried to zone in.
There is something to be said about TBC heroics though - people seemed to prefer to just farm Karazhan for badges rather than TBC heroic dungeons toward the middle/end of the expansion.
A dungeon cannot have even represent half the current classes, assuming no duplicates.
Remember the fuss kicked in the likes of magisters terrace when there wasn't a warlock and a mage present ?
That is why CC sucks in dungeons, when a group simply does not have the tools that are expected.
Questing HAS to take into account those players who are experiencing it for the first time.
Always this complaint about difficulty from the view of an experienced player who keeps forgetting that they do not represent everyone.
If you want CC and/or harder dungeons go do Challenge modes , expecting a randomly put together group to apply team work will not work in most groups. Also calling MoP heroics when you are doing them after 2-3 tiers of gear is not the way to assess the difficulty , they were of reasonable difficulty when we were first gearing when MoP came out , as we get more gear its understandable that those dungeons will be faceroll and that is why there is Challenge Modes.
I'm looking forward for the tanking role to die off, myself. It is difficult to explain using story, tanking abilities don't translate to PvP, and it's always been a thorn in the side for anyone trying to put a group together (or try to shorten queue times).
On the other hand, I tend to get amused at watching a "supposedly intelligent" raid boss be distracted by a tank yelling at them after a DPS lands a barrage of huge critical hits. Also like how an "intelligent" raid boss can't figure out it's the healer with glowing yellow or green hands that is keeping that tank alive. Ahh, scripts.
Bringing a DPS to also CC fails.
Bringing a CC class to CC allows the game to be built to support classes that do nothing but CC/buff/debuff. See: Archon in Rift or enchanter/bard in EQ1. They weren't there to blow things up. They were there for CC and to make everyone else blow things up better.
dunno why ppl want to have CC in 5man dungeons while we (nearly) never use them in boss encounters , even the hardest ones.
I agree they need to improve 5-man experience. but it should be done by giving the bosses more HP , giving them more 1-shot abilities (non-personal) so they could be used as a training tier towards lfr/flex