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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Toiran View Post
    Guild perks destroyed the sense of community in "social" guilds.

    One of the worst things to ever be added imo, it sounded good on paper, but it backfired.

    No one speaks in these guilds, or does anything together, you are invited as a goldbot, nothing more, most guilds these days that aren't a pvp or raiding guild are starting specifically to mass invite people to line the GM's pockets.

    An actual social guild that wants a real community, would have a very hard time recruiting people other than close friends until they get the perks, which depending on amount of players and activity, can take pretty long.

    Remove them or add them as an actual guild perk, i.e, all guilds get them all.
    I really don't think it's guild perks that destroyed it. Truly as I said, it's the spamming any player receives when not in a guild.

    I feel the issue is that if a new player comes into the game and gets an invite to a guild as soon as you make a character you get the sense of "oh hey, I'm in an MMO, this is a guild so I want to join this right, since it has people?" But as you said when you join those guilds it's just pretty much a ghost town with 100+ members on.

    It's not that guild perks ruined it, it's that people who take advantage of the guild perks, for instance people who are pretty much inviting people to fill their guild bank up, are. The fact that Blizzard let's the guild invite spammers go on their merry way, or even allow the addons that do it continue some what baffles me.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by SwizzleTweets View Post
    The point is, there are many more guilds now (that have the agenda of collecting people for gold income for the few selected players).
    Is this really a thing? i mean the gold income from a few players is like nothing, u can make more by simply playing the game without any concerns of actually farming gold

  3. #63
    I don't see any major disadvantages or backfires.

    Guilds who want to use the perks for their own benefit and invite loads of people who dont care about being part of a guild and will join one nad do their own thing. How does this affect me and my guild with its close knit family feeling?

    We dont need people who want to be part of such guilds or dont care for guilds. So really, its no skin off our bank. we arent losing people we wouldnt want anyway.

    Guild's like mine with the family or bonding element get the advantages from the perks. They're nice. Why have it differently if what we have already works and theres no difference?

    Why remove it just cause some people use it differently for different reasons than most people assume guilds should exist for? Is their existence some sort of bane?

    a new guild starts at level 1 and if its a bonding guild then it should have members who cherish it enough to stick around and build it up. If its a guild that just wants the benefits, it will invite LOADS of people and level up and get its perks. Good for both of them. If the guild doesnt last, then it either was not loved enough or not enough effort was put in.

    As for those mass advertising and inviting, that existed before perks and was annoying to no end. its why we have the guild invite block feature. New players who don't know that this feature exists will soon learn or click join and either leave the alt leveling gold earning guild or stick around cause it suits them.

  4. #64
    Field Marshal Ishilien's Avatar
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    All I read here are comments on how guilds aren't social anymore and how Blizzard destroyed the old guild system with their new perks... The opposite is true. If you have a well established guild on your server and you keep recruiting with a high standard regarding what kinds of people you invite, you'll see that guild prosper. The guild I've been a part of for 2 years now, Circle of Justice on Defias Brotherhood EU, has kept their forum recruitment board since it's founding in 2006 and their in game RP interview and we're still going strong regarding socials and progression raiders. People will donate money they make to the guild bank because they can and know they'll get stuff back for it. free enchants/gems/mounts in events/etc.

    A guild is as good or bad as it's members.

  5. #65
    Making levelling perks baseline isn't solving anything, for it is still adding incentives for being in a guild without having to do a single thing.
    There should not have been any perks, full stop.
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  6. #66
    So summing up the OP's argument:

    1) Guild perks do not contribute to the social aspect of the game.

    2) Guild perks force people to join guilds to get and benefit from them(which already contradicts point 1, because however forced it is, people joining guilds does advance the social aspect of the game to some limited extent).

    3) Because of points 1) and 2), guild perks should be made baseline.


    Yeah....no.

    Even if guild perks truly do not contribute to building a community, this isn't a sufficient nor compelling reason to remove it or make it baseline.

    Please come back with a more sound argument.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by vamonos View Post
    Is this really a thing? i mean the gold income from a few players is like nothing, u can make more by simply playing the game without any concerns of actually farming gold
    The point is that inevitably the person is using people to obtain free currency. Flat out understandably enough if a leveling guild comes out and opens guild repairs for its members, but on the occasions I've actually joined one, they tend not to. In the end, while still a low amount of gold is flowing, having a guild with 100+ members looting adds up in the long run.

  8. #68
    Why make the perks baseline when they can just remove them entirely? The boosts are unnecessary and are too good for how little effort it takes to get them. I'd much rather the perks be gone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Roamingstorm View Post
    The point is that inevitably the person is using people to obtain free currency. Flat out understandably enough if a leveling guild comes out and opens guild repairs for its members, but on the occasions I've actually joined one, they tend not to. In the end, while still a low amount of gold is flowing, having a guild with 100+ members looting adds up in the long run.
    People aren't getting used. People get bent out of shape whenever someone else is getting some kind of gain over them, it's crazy. But in a level 25 guild scenario, there is no parasite. You get perks, they get gold. Everybody wins. You don't even have to do anything specific for the perks, you get them automatically.

  9. #69
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    i never join a guild that isnt level 25 because i want my perks.

    so i guess in a way that hurts new guilds, but meh.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    i never join a guild that isnt level 25 because i want my perks.

    so i guess in a way that hurts new guilds, but meh.
    It's not your fault the system is the way it is. Don't feel bad for being the person you need to be to succeed in the system.

  11. #71
    Been around since the beginning. Been in several guilds due to running on multiple servers (mostly to run with friends). Perks made 0 changes to how guilds worked IMHO. Some guilds were/are communities of players dedicated to helping each other while some are just a more convenient and zone-non-specific General channel. My personal guild exists solely to be a bank, and I think a large number of the low-level guilds are that. It doesn't take long for a "real" guild to hit 25.

    Honestly, I think they took away the most community-building perk when they dropped "Have Group, Will Travel". The guild I was in used that to make rare farming runs--one guildmate circled each zone of the the expansion we were hunting rares for and anyone who needed a kill would get summoned when one was found.

  12. #72
    the type of people who didn't harvest a social environment before and just join guilds (or make&invite people) for the perks wouldn't have been contributive to the social aspect of guilds with or without perks anyway.

    Like i said a few posts ago. iam not seeing a problem. non-social guilds existing for perks dont have people who would automaticly become paragons of brother/sisterhood if perks are removed.

    The boosts are unnecessary and are too good for how little effort it takes to get them. I'd much rather the perks be gone.
    Why and how are they innecessary? Why is that a bad thing? why should guilds lose the perk benefit compared to this vague reason? does this vague reason have disadvantages that out weigh the good? How are they too good? what is enough effort to get them? Why should it take more effort to get them? If they're unnecessary how are they are too good? What are they better than? Non guilded? why would it matter to the non-guilded then? Why should the guilded lose something cause people choose to be non-guilded in an mmo? what do the non-guilded lose?

    i see nothing but a general good thing for guildies of any type that is fine as it is and only disadvantages to removing it for absolutely no advantage gained for doing so.

  13. #73
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwizzleTweets View Post
    The point is, there are many more guilds now (that have the agenda of collecting people for gold income for the few selected players).

    Now how does that make this easier for newly level 1 guild that has the best intentions of finding social people to make a good community with?

    Most people's priority is best stats, best XP, so why would anyone give you the CHANCE? :|
    Even the nice new players doesn't grasp what a guild means anymore.

    New players think it's about perks and getting a auto invite to a guild is normal and they end up staying there, then after a week, suddenly everyone left and their guild master gave you the guild master and it's a level 17 guild you can't quit from.

    Great 1st time experience for new players of the MMO genre or in general.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Let guilds have their achievements with rewards to the members that was already there, be rewarded.
    Then if they joined after, then the guild would do this achievements again in order for the other member to get the reward, then at least it would be contributing the guild to participate in playing with each other and doing things with each other and be rewarded for it.

    Rather than being invited, do quests alone, oh I got a new guild mount and new guild pet, *learn* goodbye.

    The whole level 1-25 guild isn't good idea.

    Should just been Guild (stop) and guild achievements with guild rewards by doing those achievements.
    best intentions don't count for a lot. I have the best intentions of providing a place for the best players on our server. it is not just falling in my lap but taking a lot of effort because the guilds that were here prior to me provide a lot of push back.

    same with guild perks. earn it.





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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenjen View Post
    the type of people who didn't harvest a social environment before and just join guilds (or make&invite people) for the perks wouldn't have been contributive to the social aspect of guilds with or without perks anyway.

    Like i said a few posts ago. iam not seeing a problem. non-social guilds existing for perks dont have people who would automaticly become paragons of brother/sisterhood if perks are removed.



    Why and how are they innecessary? Why is that a bad thing? why should guilds lose the perk benefit compared to this vague reason? does this vague reason have disadvantages that out weigh the good? How are they too good? what is enough effort to get them? Why should it take more effort to get them? If they're unnecessary how are they are too good? What are they better than? Non guilded? why would it matter to the non-guilded then? Why should the guilded lose something cause people choose to be non-guilded in an mmo? what do the non-guilded lose?

    i see nothing but a general good thing for guildies of any type that is fine as it is and only disadvantages to removing it for absolutely no advantage gained for doing so.
    Perks were an extra nail in the social atmosphere of World of Warcraft. The boosts were never needed before, and I don't see anything necessary about them now. If there were no perks, people would be joining guilds because they want to be in that guild, not because it's more optimal to level with the perks. That's just not the kind of choice people should have to make in this game. Have you ever been inside a level 25 feeder guild? Nobody talks. They're guilds in name only.

  15. #75
    Person A, B and C is in a chat.

    Person A is looking for a guild, somewhere nice.

    Person B and C both suggests to join their friendly, mature and social guild.

    Person A is not sure, both seem like nice people, does he roll the dice? No. He asks another question.

    Person A asks B and C, what kind of stuff do you guys do?

    B and C answers, everything. And A replies, cool.

    A asks another, what level is your guild?

    B replies that the guild is level 25, while C replies the guild is level 5.

    What does person A think?

    --- In reality, this conversation never take place because:

    1) People join a perk guild to reach max level fastest.
    2) People then join a raiding guild to experience end game content.


    -- What happen before perks came?

    1) People didn't join a guild - or people joined a guild if they wanted someone to chat with while leveling.
    2) People reached max level and joined a raiding guild nontheless, or they found themself really happy in the social guild they leveled up with and stayed there?


    See the difference here? Less chances for a new social guild to survive long enough to be a solid guild now.
    Also you wouldn't have to be afraid to recruit people that didn't really want to be in your guild (hence just caring about perks without saying so > then to have them leave cus they found a guild that had that special mount or pet from guild achievement)

  16. #76
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwizzleTweets View Post
    Person A, B and C is in a chat.

    Person A is looking for a guild, somewhere nice.

    Person B and C both suggests to join their friendly, mature and social guild.

    Person A is not sure, both seem like nice people, does he roll the dice? No. He asks another question.

    Person A asks B and C, what kind of stuff do you guys do?

    B and C answers, everything. And A replies, cool.

    A asks another, what level is your guild?

    B replies that the guild is level 25, while C replies the guild is level 5.

    What does person A think?

    --- In reality, this conversation never take place because:

    1) People join a perk guild to reach max level fastest.
    2) People then join a raiding guild to experience end game content.


    -- What happen before perks came?

    1) People didn't join a guild - or people joined a guild if they wanted someone to chat with while leveling.
    2) People reached max level and joined a raiding guild nontheless, or they found themself really happy in the social guild they leveled up with and stayed there?


    See the difference here? Less chances for a new social guild to survive long enough to be a solid guild now.
    Also you wouldn't have to be afraid to recruit people that didn't really want to be in your guild (hence just caring about perks without saying so > then to have them leave cus they found a guild that had that special mount or pet from guild achievement)
    social guilds have a way of staying around that borders on fanatical. they some times keep good players from moving to raiding guilds that need them. they also don't need the perks.

    also a guild only needs to be level 6 to have both leveling perks, which in a massive social guild happens very quickly.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Whales96 View Post
    Perks were an extra nail in the social atmosphere of World of Warcraft. The boosts were never needed before, and I don't see anything necessary about them now. If there were no perks, people would be joining guilds because they want to be in that guild, not because it's more optimal to level with the perks. That's just not the kind of choice people should have to make in this game. Have you ever been inside a level 25 feeder guild? Nobody talks. They're guilds in name only.
    So what? Have you ever been inside a raid guild? People guilt you into doing things that you don't want to do.

    Whether people want to admit it or not, guilds are tools to achieve a goal. You use a guild, a guild uses you. This idea that a guild is some kind of happy social function where everyone has some sort of mutually beneficial bond and socializes with each other runs contrary to everything that I've seen in every MMO that I've ever played. It's more like "HAY we want to do something that's not raiding, so lets put together a group made up almost entirely of our little clique and exclude those members that we don't like over ignorant and trivial things (I'm guilty of this too.) and hey we need heals/a tank ... Well that one is leveling his/her alt and is having fun but lets guilt them into wasting their afternoon with us instead!" A raid guild is essentially a large number of people that don't necessarily like each other getting together in order to get better loot.

    Sometimes a nice quiet guild that doesn't communicate is preferable. If it wasn't for the perks I would have been guildless since the start of Cata, but thanks to the perks I joined a social guild. So it seems to me to help the social aspect of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    social guilds have a way of staying around that borders on fanatical. they some times keep good players from moving to raiding guilds that need them. they also don't need the perks.
    How do they keep players from moving to raiding guilds? If a player chooses to not join a raiding guild that's their choice. There isn't much incentive to join a raiding guild anymore, and that's probably a good thing. Bad for raiding guilds, but good for the sanity of the players.
    Last edited by RoKPaNda; 2014-02-18 at 04:18 PM.

  18. #78
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    I agree some perks aren't really that social. Instead of existing perks, though some can stay, I think they should focus more on group play perks. Such as more valor for doing a guild run in a dungeon, much like how their friend group will be in WoD. Cheaper repairs, and things like that too.

  19. #79
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    I agree some perks aren't really that social. Instead of existing perks, though some can stay, I think they should focus more on group play perks. Such as more valor for doing a guild run in a dungeon, much like how their friend group will be in WoD. Cheaper repairs, and things like that too.
    cheaper repairs is already a perk.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  20. #80
    Legendary! Pendra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    social guilds have a way of staying around that borders on fanatical. they some times keep good players from moving to raiding guilds that need them. they also don't need the perks.
    Uhm...if a player really wants to move to a raiding guild, they will. Nobody in a social guild can prevent them from doing so.
    If those good players don't want to join a raiding guild, however, maybe the raiding guild just isn't what they are looking for.

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