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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    It's not about inflating your personal DPS - Shadow and Locks gain real, tangible DPS gains on the boss as a result of making use of their execute mechanics. That isn't true for any other class. We generate our primary resources during execute range - if the ability lags for a few seconds, and the mob dies before we Death - Shadow Orbs are lost - the boss dies markedly slower: which puts the attempt at risk (longer fights are more opportunities for wipes).

    For Shadow, Devouring Plague also represents a non-trivial amount of healing for us - it's the majority of our survivability at this point - so losing access to Shadow Orbs not only makes the fight take longer, it puts Spriests in particular at greater risk of dying.
    To that end, it sucks not getting a free Hammer of Wrath and the HoPo it generates.

    I say free, as opposed to having to use one of your 3 other CD based HoPo generators (which then go on CD so won't be available for however many globals)
    While Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes", to which Diogenes replied, "If I were not Diogenes, I should also wish to be Diogenes."

  2. #22
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    To that end, it sucks not getting a free Hammer of Wrath and the HoPo it generates.

    I say free, as opposed to having to use one of your 3 other CD based HoPo generators (which then go on CD so won't be available for however many globals)
    That's precisely the point - spare that Rets generate Holy Power at like, 5-6 times the rate Shadowpriests generate Shadow Orbs, so a Shadow Orb is certainly more valuable than a HoPo - but the principle is the same. Imagine if you could only Templar's Verdict or Divine Storm after a Hammer of Wrath, and then imagine if Hammer of Wrath often didn't light up until the add was dead: it would bother you.

    The Shadow Orb system is a very poor rip-off of the HoPo system rets have, spare that we get one Orb generator (apart from Death), and one finishing move (DP), and the old 3-Orb cap that Rets used to suffer under (which should be boosted to mirror the 5-orb system Rets have now, in 6.0).
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  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral Icebear's Avatar
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    Since I have played both Warrior, Shadow Priest, Destro Warlock and Ret Pala, I by far feel that SW: D is the slowest of all the executes to activate. Shadowburn is almost instant, HoW and Execute feels a tad slower, but SW: D just feels slower than all of them, around double the time it takes for Shadowburn to notice the targets health.

  4. #24
    Legendary! muto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icebear View Post
    Since I have played both Warrior, Shadow Priest, Destro Warlock and Ret Pala, I by far feel that SW: D is the slowest of all the executes to activate. Shadowburn is almost instant, HoW and Execute feels a tad slower, but SW: D just feels slower than all of them, around double the time it takes for Shadowburn to notice the targets health.
    No it's just as slow, I play both.

  5. #25
    I'm pretty sure a slower SB is worse than a slower SWD.

    > SWD does a lot less damage, really a lot.
    > When you are doing havoc sb 'cleave' you want it to activate instantly.
    > One ember gives a lot more damage than 3 shadow orbs combined.
    (Though it's more about locks being overscaled, though it's worse for them).
    Last edited by Hazori; 2014-02-20 at 04:28 PM.

  6. #26
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    I'm pretty sure a slower SB is worse than a slower SWD.

    > SWD does a lot less damage, really a lot.
    It does, but locks are overtuned and shadow is undertuned - if you adjust for the enormous difference in our DPS - I'd estimate Death (and the orb it entails) is even more important to Shadow than Shadowburn is for Locks.


    > When you are doing havoc sb 'cleave' you want it to activate instantly.
    Not sure I understand this one, when you are trying to SW: Death, you want it to activate instantly too - I'm not sure how Havoc makes it even worse, apart from that the ability hasn't lit up yet and you just blew Havoc on the assumption it would.

    > One ember gives a lot more damage than 3 shadow orbs combined.
    I'm fairly confident it doesn't - but as you and I both know/mentioned - if we scale it for the total damage of a lock vs. a spriest - DP is more important to a spriest than a Burning Ember, and likely even 2-3 Burning Embers: it's just that locks can deal double our DPS on some fights.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-02-20 at 06:54 PM.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I'm fairly confident it doesn't - but as you and I both know/mentioned - if we scale it for the total damage of a lock vs. a spriest - DP is more important to a spriest than a Burning Ember, and likely even 2-3 Burning Embers: it's just that locks can deal double our DPS on some fights.
    One Shadowburn (and if the target dies, two potential extra SBs) definitely doesn't do more DPS than 3-Orb DP/Insanity unless you happen to have every single proc available up.

    It does suck that the problem is as widespread as it is, but I don't think any class is as penalized as Shadow for this bug. And this is coming from someone who has raided heroics as both Lock/Priest.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-02-20 at 06:53 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerbz View Post
    That macro does not work.
    What does not work about it? Because I tested the macro and verified it in fact does work. You keep having the same target and cast SWD on it. What I do not know is if it solves the lag issue which apparently is mitigated when you retarget. That is precisely what this macro aims to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I'm fairly confident it doesn't - but as you and I both know/mentioned - if we scale it for the total damage of a lock vs. a spriest - DP is more important to a lock than a Burning Ember, and likely even 2-3 Burning Embers: it's just that locks can deal double our DPS on some fights.
    I know some people play WoW "Sans Famille" but in my world raid DPS loss is more important than personal DPS loss.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  9. #29
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    I know some people play WoW "Sans Famille" but in my world raid DPS loss is more important than personal DPS loss.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this? What I'm saying is - Shadow's personal DPS loss due to not being able to execute, is a raid DPS loss - versus a warrior or hunter getting in a kill shot. It's not simply a "high damage vs low hp target'' button for us, it's a third of a devouring plague, and at least 3-4 ticks of Insanity (subtract equivalent ticks of Mind Flay) - the loss of a shadow orb makes Death more valuable than Kill Shot / Execute / Hammer of Wrath, and likely even Shadowburn: to the raid.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    What does not work about it? Because I tested the macro and verified it in fact does work. You keep having the same target and cast SWD on it. What I do not know is if it solves the lag issue which apparently is mitigated when you retarget. That is precisely what this macro aims to do.
    Which is exactly why it doesn't work. It doesn't do anything to help input lag.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by this? What I'm saying is - Shadow's personal DPS loss due to not being able to execute, is a raid DPS loss - versus a warrior or hunter getting in a kill shot. It's not simply a "high damage vs low hp target'' button for us, it's a third of a devouring plague, and at least 3-4 ticks of Insanity (subtract equivalent ticks of Mind Flay) - the loss of a shadow orb makes Death more valuable than Kill Shot / Execute / Hammer of Wrath, and likely even Shadowburn: to the raid.
    I'd like to see the maths behind it or rather my class leader is a warlock and wants to see that

    I can easily see what you say is true for KS/Exe/HoW. I'm not sure on SB though.

    A correct optimized Shadowburn would be, during procs, Havoc'ed 3x and also lead to one Burning Ember back.

    This is 4 GCDs with a net gain of (-3 + 2 =) -1 ember. In these 4 GCD the lock is able to do a total of effectively 6 SB.

    Us? We don't get a DP3 from this nor a complete MFI. Our ramp up time towards our burst is quicker.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerbz View Post
    Which is exactly why it doesn't work. It doesn't do anything to help input lag.
    Input lag is something different than the client or server recognizing the mob is below 20%.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  12. #32
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    I'd like to see the maths behind it or rather my class leader is a warlock and wants to see that

    I can easily see what you say is true for KS/Exe/HoW. I'm not sure on SB though.

    A correct optimized Shadowburn would be, during procs, Havoc'ed 3x and also lead to one Burning Ember back.

    This is 4 GCDs with a net gain of (-3 + 2 =) -1 ember. In these 4 GCD the lock is able to do a total of effectively 6 SB.
    There are a few issues to start with before we can do math:

    On almost every fight - Affliction is higher DPS than Destruction - so your locks should be Affliction 80%+ of the time anyways. Affliction doesn't have this problem really - because it gains Soul Shards off channeling the kill, so the HP-update bug isn't an issue for it.

    Havoc is a 25 second cooldown, so it's not completely fair to assume that every Shadowburn is tripled. Further - you're assuming you have multiple execute range mobs to push out those 6 Shadowburns, which isn't a very accurate condition either. I agree it would be wrong to exclude those conditions as well - because sometimes they are true - but probably the majority of the time, they are not.

    Also, maybe I'm mis-counting - but aren't you further assuming full Burning Embers all being spent on Shadowburn there, and therefore not Chaos Bolt? (Which I believe is higher priority?)

    You should be getting well over 9 ticks of MF:I out of an average DP - 3 full casts are possible, in addition to mastery procs (and 40-50% mastery is common). The 3 casts alone are 9 ticks, which should average out to 14-15 MF:I ticks per DP (mastery), without mastery or haste procs (DP and MF:I also scale extremely well with both mastery and haste procs). A third of that should be 4-5, so 3 is a pretty conservative understatement that assumes movement (or no movement, and 0% mastery - which is impossible - just to show how much of an under-estimate it is).

    Quite apart from the kind of unrealistic assumptions you are placing on Shadowburn, we get a Shadow Word: Death, + the damage of a DP1, and at the very least a full MF:I worth of Insanity ticks (almost 2), due to the Orb gain. And - for whatever it is worth, a third of a DP in self-healing (~12-25% of max hp?).

    That occurs in a single GCD, every 8 seconds - what do you suggest we fill in for the other 3 GCDs every 25 seconds that your ideal Shadowburn scenario assumes?
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-02-21 at 02:12 AM.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    On almost every fight - Affliction is higher DPS than Destruction - so your locks should be Affliction 80%+ of the time anyways. Affliction doesn't have this problem really - because it gains Soul Shards off channeling the kill, so the HP-update bug isn't an issue for it. }
    Affli does have this problem. No shard if adds die before Drain Soul has the chance to tic, no extra damage outside of execute range.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Input lag is something different than the client or server recognizing the mob is below 20%.
    Whatever the fuck the issue is the macro you provided doesn't help anything, as much as I wished it did.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleary View Post
    It must be, but its extra punishing on priests
    Can confirm that occasonally the same thing will happen with shadowburn, soul drain, and other executes.

    It'd be better if more executes used the soul-reaper style, where it's castable whenever, but decides upon impact/detonation if it grants benefits.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    On almost every fight - Affliction is higher DPS than Destruction - so your locks should be Affliction 80%+ of the time anyways. Affliction doesn't have this problem really - because it gains Soul Shards off channeling the kill, so the HP-update bug isn't an issue for it.
    Not sure who told you Affliction does more damage than Destruction? On pure multidot without cleave Affliction is better especially if you can gain Soul Shards. Most fights in SoO are however cleave fights. Destruction and Demonology shine there. On single target, Affliction will only do more damage because of its insane burst. The longer the fight last, the more Destruction will be able to catch up and eventually surpass. Maybe you're in an amazing guild where nobody ever dies and everyone outgears the content and your locks are Affliction and get ranked, but even then Affliction's AoE is a complete joke. Your locks are not playing Affliction on Siegecrafter 25 Heroic, or Spoils 25 Heroic.

    [Edit: Brusalk's viewpoint on best lock spec in SoO -> Affli on Protectors, rest Destro.]

    About Affliction's execute it obviously works on a boss but Blizzard has made certain mobs not grand Soul Shards on kill. The sparks on Elegon for example won't grand Soul Shards, and the same for the Jailer on Thok. The Jailer on Thok is a good example. If he's alive less long, means the lock can gain less shards from it. If DS does not tick at all, the lock will gain no shards and this means a max of 4 haunts missed. We should also take ToF procs & uptime into the equation.

    Havoc is a 25 second cooldown, so it's not completely fair to assume that every Shadowburn is tripled. Further - you're assuming you have multiple execute range mobs to push out those 6 Shadowburns, which isn't a very accurate condition either. I agree it would be wrong to exclude those conditions as well - because sometimes they are true - but probably the majority of the time, they are not.
    You put Havoc on the target you want to do damage to for example Garrosh and you put Shadowburn on the target you can execute. This requires only 1 target to Shadowburn. The one you put Havoc on doesn't need to be above 20% health; in fact that can be detrimental because the mob might die (from executes!!) before your Havoc expires. At the same time your target needs to die with the Shadowburn debuff or you lose 2 embers. If your main target (say, Garrosh) is below 20% then you can use him to mirror Havoc from but thats rather rare. Havoc can also be glyphed.

    Also, maybe I'm mis-counting - but aren't you further assuming full Burning Embers all being spent on Shadowburn there, and therefore not Chaos Bolt? (Which I believe is higher priority?)
    If you can spend your ember on SB and the damage is relevant you should do so. A warlock who is casting CB on the boss with 10% health left is doing it wrong. Remember using Havoc + SB = more DPS than Havoc + CB. Only if you are unsure you will be able to use Havoc with SBs (because the target dies too quick) you can play it safe with CB.

    What I want to know is how much is our DPS loss versus a warlock who is "playing it safe" in other words a warlock who is just using (glyphed) Havoc on CD whenever he can + CB.

    You should be getting well over 9 ticks of MF:I out of an average DP - 3 full casts are possible, in addition to mastery procs (and 40-50% mastery is common). The 3 casts alone are 9 ticks, which should average out to 14-15 MF:I ticks per DP (mastery), without mastery or haste procs (DP and MF:I also scale extremely well with both mastery and haste procs). A third of that should be 4-5, so 3 is a pretty conservative understatement that assumes movement (or no movement, and 0% mastery - which is impossible - just to show how much of an under-estimate it is).
    I don't want to underestimate, I want an accurate comparison thanks for the effort tho.

    Not sure how you manage 14-15. With GCD cap and 50% mastery I get about 11-12 ticks. Thats with refreshing MF:I with 0,5 sec remaining on DP. If I take MB into account its only 10 ticks. Does Skada show the mastery as normal MF damage?

    If you get bumped up in the air on Malkorok, no cookie. If you have to move on Spoils, no cookie. Thok, no comment. Even on Siegecrafter if you get a Sawblade on you, you at least must use a GCD to interrupt your MF:I. There are a lot of movement heavy fights in SoO and they're friendly towards SWD, Havoc, and SB but not MF:I. We should also not account for MF:I and mastery too much. After all, your mastery would've proc'ed with a same % on avg on a normal MF as well, and if you did not have MF:I you would've just used MF so the damage from a normal MF should be retracted. We would also use 3 extra GCDs: 2x SWD and 1x DP, but a lock has far more flexibility with their Embers and has more freedom with turreting. Its a weakness of our spec but carefully designed by Blizzard when they gave us the new MF:I.

    Quite apart from the kind of unrealistic assumptions you are placing on Shadowburn, we get a Shadow Word: Death, + the damage of a DP1, and at the very least a full MF:I worth of Insanity ticks (almost 2), due to the Orb gain. And - for whatever it is worth, a third of a DP in self-healing (~12-25% of max hp?).
    I almost never time my DP around self healing, so its just lucky cleave healing usually. A lot of the time it will cause overhealing, or just triage healing a healer would've picked up with a minor heal like a HoT.

    That occurs in a single GCD, every 8 seconds - what do you suggest we fill in for the other 3 GCDs every 25 seconds that your ideal Shadowburn scenario assumes?
    It costs us 3 GCDs: 2 SWD and 1 DP and you are right we don't have an alternative but they lose DPS so its a pissing contest who executes first. Also of importance a warlock can spec for KJC and lose a bit of burst DPS while our loss of DPS is much bigger when we opt for movement friendly spec.
    Last edited by lolalola; 2014-02-24 at 04:03 AM.
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  17. #37
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    You can start spamming SW:Smiley hotkey at 30% and if the raid DPS is really high you won't be able to get a single SW:Smiley before the target is dead, been there a thousand of times.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    It's not about inflating your personal DPS - Shadow and Locks gain real, tangible DPS gains on the boss as a result of making use of their execute mechanics. That isn't true for any other class. We generate our primary resources during execute range - if the ability lags for a few seconds, and the mob dies before we Death - Shadow Orbs are lost - the boss dies markedly slower: which puts the attempt at risk (longer fights are more opportunities for wipes).

    For Shadow, Devouring Plague also represents a non-trivial amount of healing for us - it's the majority of our survivability at this point - so losing access to Shadow Orbs not only makes the fight take longer, it puts Spriests in particular at greater risk of dying.
    Ret Paladins also get a charge of HP per HoW. Similar issues if the add is blown up quickly.

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