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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Reforging is gone, I think its a bad move considering they got rid of the main three culprits, Exp, Dodge and Haste thresholds.
    I agree with this, with all the changes and introduction of tertiary stats I'd like to have reforging remain in game.

  2. #242
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Once we get used to not having reforging, it really won't be too bad. We'll forget it ever existed in no-time. UNLESS Blizzard does not make the effort to balance accordingly. Then I will eat my words.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Painapple View Post
    I agree with this, with all the changes and introduction of tertiary stats I'd like to have reforging remain in game.
    Yeah, it's kind of weird that they removed the reason why reforging sucked and then removed reforging with it. The cascading reforging with hit/exp was the only crappy thing about it.

    Also, since we're discussing stat weights, I ran a raid simulation with every spec in the game with 25k iterations, stat weight scaling enabled. (It took 4 hours, lolz.)




    A quick glance through the secondaries:

    Normally I talk about secondaries by converting them into strength, this chart shows dps per point. Example: Crit gives 9.45 dps per point, strength gives 6.4 dps per point... 9.45/6.4 = 1.47 SEP

    So, the difference between crit and haste is 9.45 - 4.3 = 5.15 dps per point. So every point of haste that I can convert into crit will give 5 dps. Going through every spec on the list, there are only 2 specs that have a "major" 3 dps difference, Shadow (crit/haste, 3.1 dps) and Monks (Haste/Mastery, 2.8).

    Shadow doesn't even hate haste, the only reason haste looks so poor is because the profile has 16.5k haste rating already, and the next breakpoint is likely more than 1k haste away. Monks are similar, haste is a fairly good stat up to a certain point (7-9k? rating), and then drops off significantly.

    So out of all specs in the game at the moment, Fury is the only spec with such a massive gap in secondary stat weights. There's not even a spec that's close. The closest spec is a freaking bookin, who gets 8.4 dps from haste and 6.5 from mastery. Fury actually has the largest and second largest gap in secondarys, as Crit is 2.5 above Mastery as well.

    (Pet peeve alert: It really frustrates me when someone playing a spec like BM (4.98/4.78/5.13 dps per point on secondaries) or combat (5.17/5.98/5.38 per point) complain about itemization on gear. Really? You're going to turn down a piece of gear because it has a stat that is literally 0.8 dps worse than your best? That's ridiculous.)

    The best part about all of this, is that haste is actually propped up because warriors were given a hidden 150% modifier to haste. In reality: 9.45 - (4.3/1.5 = 2.86) = 6.59 dps difference in haste and crit.
    Last edited by CollisionTD; 2014-02-28 at 06:21 AM.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Yeah, it's kind of weird that they removed the reason why reforging sucked and then removed reforging with it. The cascading reforging with hit/exp was the only crappy thing about it.
    Kind of? And people wonder why I criticize Blizzard devs so often.

    It really is absurd.

    Mark my words, if they intend to keep plugging along with their plan to have CDR on all of our gear in the form of something that has a rating, they will be FORCED to put Reforging back in the game. That, to me, is the only good thing that could come from those stats anyway. I think Readiness is a terrible design decision, just like how moving around Storm Bolt and Bladestorm makes little sense (especially in regards to stated design INTENT). A flat CDR on a trinket is appropriate. But something that's potentially in every slot? No thanks.

    As players, we've been promised many things. But I think Blizzard's track record is particularly abysmal. Just look at how long we're going to have to sit in SoO while we wait for WoD. Didn't they say they were going to fix that after last expansion's debacle?

    People that take Blizzard's words as the solemn truth are far more often proven wrong than right. As a community, we should be questioning everything they're saying - does it actually make sense, can they back it up with results, will it work? Particularly concerning to me is that many people on these forums are completely enamored any time a Blizz dev utters anything and by the aspect that somehow, someway, this expansion (regardless of every other expansion's promising the same) will have balance tuned appropriately for every class. Bullocks. They can promise it all they want, but until I see it, I'd rather assume that they will fail - because it's far more likely. And in that case, Reforging MUST stay in the game.

    IF they actually pull off relative stat parity, then Reforging could be a great tool for differentiating yourself within your spec. Thus, the removal of it is a removal of potential choices. It'd be cool if Fury could feel different playing either a high-Haste or high-Crit (or whatever build) and still pull roughly the same numbers. That would be the ideal situation, for me. But I sincerely doubt Blizzard has the talent (or will) to accomplish that, just based on the game's history.

  5. #245
    I am Murloc! Archimtiros's Avatar
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    The reason they removed Reforging is because people complained about it being too much work to get an item, put it on, and go back to raiding. Everything they did; toning down Gems/Enchants, removing those offending stats, trying to equalize secondary stats; accomplishes that goal.
    I said it at Blizzcon that removing Reforging was overkill. I think its a great tool to separate those who do and do not care and feel like your customizing your character a bit more, and I really hope they rethink their decision.

    But they make the game primarily for the masses, and the cheers when they called for the removal of Reforging was pretty telling, as disappointing as that is.

    Secondary stats won't be entirely equal. Nothing is equal in a game of numbers. Thing is, as peoples awareness of mechanics goes up, so does their expectations. A couple years ago we were looking at 20%+ differences in performance between specs. Now we are looking at 5% for most of them or less. Yet people complain more! Because back then, the measurements were not as easily accessible. Is this their fault? Not particularly, but you must of course continue to evolve as times change.
    As for having a high-haste/crit build with same numbers. It has nothing to do with talent. It is completely intent. They have always designed the classes to benefit more from different things. For one it creates gearing differences, so not everyone is after the same pieces, and makes the classes feel further apart from one another. We will see how that plays out in WoD, but even then I am sure we will have certain stats that are better than others, just the gap between them is smaller. To be honest its pretty small with most classes as is, and Warriors are the red-headed step child in that regard.

    I really don't think they are as bad as you like to pretend though. You make it sound like everything they try fails and its much further from the truth. Sure some things don't work out as well as they planned but its very hard to tell how a community will react over time. The same thing happens in the real world all the time too. Ideas don't pan out. The best laid plains don't survive first contact. Insert witty saying here.


    Pulled some dates for expansions and raids just for funsies:

    WoW released Nov 2004
    BC released Jan 2007 - 2 years and 2 months
    Wrath released Nov 2008 - 1 year 8 months
    Cata released Dec 20010 - 2 years 1 month
    MoP released Dec 2012 - 2 years
    WoD will most likely release around August-September (Beta in March up to 6 month Beta) - ~1 year 8 months

    Assuming my estimate is on track, WoD will be on par with Wrath for the fastest released expansion.

    Now for Raid zones (starting with Wrath):
    Naxx 10/25 - Nov 2008
    Ulduar - April 2009 - 5 months
    ToC - August 2009 - 4 months
    ICC - Dec 2009 - 4 months (RS doesn't count, due to not being a new "tier")

    Cata:
    BoT/BWD - Dec 2010 - 1 year
    Firelands - June 2011 - 6 months
    Dragon Soul - November 2011 - 5 months

    MoP:
    MSV - September 2012 - 10 months (I realize T14 was a staggered release, most guilds did not or barely finished MSV by the time HoF was released so ignoring that fact for now)
    ToT - March 2013 - 6 months
    SoO - September 2013 - 6 months

    WoD - estimated August 2014 - ~11 months.


    So really; we had ICC longer than Dragon Soul or SoO. Yes with this projection which could be off, though I doubt it, raid tiers really haven't come much faster, but they haven't been significantly slower either. Heck a lot of people think ToT was rushed. The major problem with DS wasn't that it dragged on. The problem was it got nerfed way too hard way too quickly. ICC had stacking nerfs as well but the content still got eaten at a much slower pace. MoP is in the same situation. So yes, it sucks for those of us who cleared SoO early; but like I said before, the game is made with more casual players in mind and there is no way to appease both groups.
    Regardless I think its more about how long its been since majority of the game consumed the content before next Expansion; more than how long its been since the first groups cleared the content.

    WarriorSarri just said something I think its pretty apt though: "They've almost always done things that we as a community assumed would be awful and turned it into something we love".

    I think its pretty true. Not saying I'm happy about all the changes they are making in WoD, but people who think its the end of the world or that the devs are off their rockers should calm down or find a new game. They like introducing new and provocative ideas. It's one reason this game has continued to dominate for going on 10 years now. I've played on private servers many times, in Classic, Wrath and Cata, during which the servers were usually an expansion behind and just ended up frustrated as all hell over the lack of things we have now. Some things may not be better as far as everyone is concerned, but the "quality of life" when it comes to gameplay continues to increase with every expansion.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2014-02-28 at 02:12 AM.

  6. #246
    Stood in the Fire
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    EDIT: nvm, I read the dev blog wrong
    Last edited by burk23; 2014-02-28 at 06:06 AM.

  7. #247
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burk23 View Post
    Not sure if this is discussed already. I just read that crit is now 150% dmg baseline. Thus im pretty sure you will need only half the rating to get 1% crit. This way it should be pretty easy to reach 50% crit even without gemming/reforging.
    I read that somewhere before but I Couldn't find it again do you have the source? I found one that states against players

  8. #248
    I've heard rumors of the 150% crit damage thing as well, it's more likely to be a PVP thing. If that change was made to every spec, it would absolutely destroy the value of crit to every spec other than fire/fury.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    I've heard rumors of the 150% crit damage thing as well, it's more likely to be a PVP thing. If that change was made to every spec, it would absolutely destroy the value of crit to every spec other than fire/fury.
    I thought crits were 200% for PVE and 150% for PVP?

    https://twitter.com/holinka/status/439223761695301632

    Or maybe 175% for PVE? I dunno.

  10. #250
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jalopy View Post
    I thought crits were 200% for PVE and 150% for PVP?

    https://twitter.com/holinka/status/439223761695301632

    Or maybe 175% for PVE? I dunno.
    Well if its 150% for pvp (with 25% reduction) it would mean that PVE is still 200%

  11. #251
    Stood in the Fire
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    Yeah, I read that wrong. Im pretty sure its still 200% in PvE and 150% in PvP.
    Which makes it really useless in PvP and frankly destroy every crit reliant class...

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by burk23 View Post
    Yeah, I read that wrong. Im pretty sure its still 200% in PvE and 150% in PvP.
    Which makes it really useless in PvP and frankly destroy every crit reliant class...
    No class in PVP is crit reliant like any class in PVE. It's just a burst nicety. Maybe Hansol will cry or the oft "guys fury is good in PVP this season I swear" guy.

    And even so, nerfing the damage has nothing to do with the crit necessary for spec performance.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    We know nothing about Flurry yet, but it devalues Haste so its a prime candidate to get changed/removed.
    I don't know of any abilities that are weapon damage + AP. Most are either Wdmg + X or AP + X (and the + X part I think is getting removed entirely? I can't remember, it's late).
    They are indeed removing base damage from spells. So it's all going to be weapon damage/ap.

  14. #254
    Epic! Ashtwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    They are indeed removing base damage from spells. So it's all going to be weapon damage/ap.

    So we basically want weapons ASAP? :/

  15. #255
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtwo View Post
    So we basically want weapons ASAP? :/
    Ap will still contribute as much damage to spells as it does now its just the "does 360% weapon damage +3800" will be gone

  16. #256
    The Lightbringer Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtwo View Post
    So we basically want weapons ASAP?
    Didn't we already?

    Also, from the recent posts, "Crit/Haste/Mastery/Readiness/Multistrike. " are the secondary stats. I've been incorrectly suggesting there would be fewer. My bad. Readiness, at least, could be a handy tank stat.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Didn't we already?

    Also, from the recent posts, "Crit/Haste/Mastery/Readiness/Multistrike. " are the secondary stats. I've been incorrectly suggesting there would be fewer. My bad. Readiness, at least, could be a handy tank stat.
    i think 5 stats is enough, but they should remove Multistrike with something else, i dunno what that thing is, maybe cleave.

    Multistrike feels like a lower crit
    Amp feels like a stat that increase your dps by %, boring. it doesnt increase your dps by making you faster or hit twice as hard or whatever.


    also i want to ask, they are removing skull banner entirely ? what happens to banners ?

    should this thread turn into warrior WoD discussion ? am i missing a different thread ?

  18. #258
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouri Kogorou View Post
    i think 5 stats is enough, but they should remove Multistrike with something else, i dunno what that thing is, maybe cleave.

    Multistrike feels like a lower crit
    Amp feels like a stat that increase your dps by %, boring. it doesnt increase your dps by making you faster or hit twice as hard or whatever.


    also i want to ask, they are removing skull banner entirely ? what happens to banners ?

    should this thread turn into warrior WoD discussion ? am i missing a different thread ?
    Amp and cleave are being droped for now.

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