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  1. #1

    Alterac Vally needs updating. [Suggestion included]

    Alterac Vally as it stands now is completely biased, this was shown in the recent info on mmo champ and has been known for a long time by players of the game on both factions.

    It has the potential to be an epic battleground once again and I cant understate the value it would have to players who enjoy battlegrounds to have AV upgraded to a standard which can be enjoyed by both factions whilst being faction neutral at the same time.

    Now, as for the changes made that would make AV epic; I could name loads but one which I like the sound of is this:

    At the moment there is a massive rush at the beginning to cap towers/bunkers and kill mini-boss's. This is the point at which Alliance have the upper hand, no matter what they seem to cap everything first and thus have first dibs on killing last boss first. Horde cap everything second and cant regroup to kill boss in time (with the exceptions of the odd AV where people defend) but generally this is the commonality between every match.

    So, what if at the beginning neither faction could cap a single base or kill the mini bosses till they have disarmed a defensive mage shield which protects the bunkers/towers, the shield is generated by remnants of the Dalaran mages in the Alterac mountains.
    These shields are generated in the field of strife, say 50-100yards apart on opposite sides of the middle ground for each factions north/south starting points.

    This would mean a mad rush to the mid for both factions and not only will there be a massive battle over attacking/defending the mages for each faction but would mean each faction has equal chances at downing the shield so they can then start to cap towers/bunkers . The only thing then that makes one faction faster than the other is teamwork in mid.

    Promoting teamwork in AV over just plain bad mapping/designing is better IMO.

    Also maybe have a certain way of bringing back a mage for your faction to halt the progress of destroying towers/bunkers for the opposing faction.

    I know people will say, laaaggggg.... unplayable due to nameplates and crappy cpus..... however!!!! taking down the mage shield would not require the entire team as you could send people out to the bunkers/towers in preparation for the shield taken down. So that would lose the number of players the zerg in mid.

    Well this is one idea anway, I like sound of it. Well I would wouldn't I. But let me know what yall think please, provide feedback so I can try and refine and roll out creases in the idea.

    And control of the mines could be the deciding factor weather or not your faction could get the shield up again.

    Cheers Scrimjaw

    ps posted for a friend as they do not have an account.
    Last edited by CoLLaTeRaLz; 2014-02-21 at 09:45 PM.

  2. #2
    As a Horde; AV is fine. It's not Blizzard's fault if the PLAYERS refuse to play to their faction's strengths in a given BG. Horde can defend much easier, their chokes are much more effective, especially now they've been fixed so that you cannot get by Horde bottlenecks at all. You can still avoid Icewing by jumping around the cliff side. Same goes for IoC. Just because the majority of the Horde just going "OH LOOK RED NAMES ME SMAAAAAASH" and ignore any elements that actually contribute to a swift win, or loss, doesn't meant the map is imbalanced.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  3. #3
    Horde can defend much easier
    and ignore any elements that actually contribute to a swift win
    Those points don't correlate with each other.

    The fact of matter is, even when I'm in a guild group and defend with a small number of players or with obvious other guild groups/OQ groups we still lose due to not having enough number up north defending the bunkers we have tagged.
    Alliance have a much easier task of winning AV than Horde does, if Horde want to win (talking evenly matched teams here) then they have to work their butts off to do so. Which isn't really in the spirit of battlegrounds IMO.

    Over the years the communal experience of each faction has now inbuilt the formula for a straight foreword win for the Alliance and a feeling of what the hells the points for horde. So any small changes they might make to the map wont have much if any effect I fear.
    So a new objective which implores comradeship and team work to even get to the flags to cap will change that rut which the Horde has gotten itself into.

    Whilst I wont agree with you that map isn't imbalanced any more, I wont deny it either. Superficial changes wont solve the problem as far as I can see, or for that matter yet to experience.

    (made an account so I could make a proper reply rather than relay through me mate :P)
    Last edited by Scrimjaws; 2014-02-21 at 11:53 PM.

  4. #4
    Haven't played in years but have to ask.

    Did they ever do anything about the bridge into the horde base? I played as a horde and the bridge became insanely OP base defense when they started allowing players knock back abilities. We could have a shaman or moonkin or the likes just run in and AoE push them all off the bridge and give an insanely good bottleneck where even a single flare effectively prevented all enemy stealth from getting past.

    Don't get me wrong, the Alliance was also screwed in that their base defense could be entirely avoided for the most part due to poor NPC placement and a fence I could jump over and bypass. But once the push back abilities came into play, that bridge turned into the ultimate meat grinder.

  5. #5
    Think you got your factions and bases mixed up Fugus, ally has the bridge

  6. #6
    you know noone is defending anymore, everyone wants free fast honor for gear, both faction rush last bosses taking towers on the way...and wait for them to be destroyed(win) - recatupred(lost)
    so they don't care anymore with all those side quest, summonable bosses, reputation grind. You need to change that first

    there was time on my EU battlegroup against german horde, later french also, those buggers went to galv and defend and they always wins with resources and pushing slowly each tower, and I was always praying not to get into them...
    Last edited by Zstr; 2014-02-22 at 12:19 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrimjaws View Post
    Those points don't correlate with each other.
    You do realise that I'm talking about two different battlegrounds with those points? One refers to AV, where Horde have a definitive defensive advantage while the other refers to, in particular, the Glaives which the majority of Horde tend to ignore in AV. Both BGs, when you defend, will result in a win. While the same can apply to Alliance in IoC, Horde are typically best suited to defending in AV/IoC. Just because "they have to work for it" doesn't matter.

    Is it fair the Alliance have a slightly harder time in BfG? Or is it fair that they can abuse Druid Aquatic Form Glyph while Horde can abuse Slowfalls with Speed boosts? What about the Horde advantage in AB, which allows them to more easily defend BS/LM/Farm compared to it's mirror of BS/GM/ST? I'm sure with enough exploration I could find similar faults in other battlegrounds. The only BG that is perfectly fair in design is SotA, and that's because it removes any chance of either side having an advantage, other then the number of Rogues with Subterfuge you have.

    I won't deny that over the years the typical mindset of "Fast lose, more honor, get into queue again to join a proper BG and win" isn't a factor in determining AV outcomes. But once again that's the player's issue, not a fault in map design. The only issue with AV is that the map isn't updated to reflect the "short game" ideal that Blizzard decided was the way to go with Battlegrounds after Wrath. Towers should have a longer time, but be based on proximity and not caps so that it's easier to counterattack and not just spam AoE on a flag and be unable to touch it. The placement of NPCs in bunkers/towers should be different. Small things that would meaningfully contribute to the actual play and quality of the games you actually get to play.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrimjaws View Post
    Think you got your factions and bases mixed up Fugus, ally has the bridge
    Oops, my bad. All the time toying around on the private servers starting to get it twisted, lol.

    Was horde on retail but went Alliance for the private servers because everyone on those servers go horde more than anything which gave me more things to kill and to be honest, as much as people complained about Horde racials in TBC, the Alliance had the OP racials outside of the arena.

    Shadowmeld + Perception + Stoneform > Will of the Forsaken + Warstomp + Orc Stun resist when in world PvP or BGs.

    But you got the point, that bridge was the ultimate in OP defenses after knock back effects. Between the long drop that could instantly kill many to the archers range to the fact that you could AoE slow and flare and hit the entire thing. The other base had problems as well due to the wall that could be hopped and NPCs that could be ignored but so long as the bridge had a base defense it was hell.

  9. #9
    You do realise that I'm talking about two different battlegrounds with those points?
    Ah no, I wasn't aware - my bad. I tend to disregard the letters IoC, that Bg just doesn't count as an entity at all for me.

    Sure there are many small problems with all the battlegrounds, but the thread was intended to relate only with AV. It is in my humble opinion the most imbalanced one of them all due to it having the largest discrepancy in win/loss ratio for the factions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think I need to reiterate my point.

    Despite any recent efforts to change AV for the better, it still is favourable toward alliance. Even if it is just in the mind-set of horde that they are going to lose and so do lose, how would Blizz even sort a psychological problem like that out?.....by moving a fence here or a invisible wall there? - point being very obviously not.

    So I feel the best way to fix it is to change mechanics of the BG, and so I made a suggestion. Which I'm saddened that no one has commented on yet as I think it could be pretty kick-ass

  10. #10
    Bloodsail Admiral Constraint's Avatar
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    Fairly decent ideas. But the problem with AV at the moment certainly isn't imbalance/bias, in my opinion. It's complete lack of conflict. Sure, a quick battle royale in the center over the mages might help, but I doubt it. Not only is it isolated to (predominantly) the start of the battle, but there's certainly no guarantee that it'd even take hold. It's human nature to choose the path of least resistance in this casual age of WoW - and all too often, people would rather just choose the quickest way to get the BG over and done with, win or lose.

    The mechanics of the BG itself need to change entirely. Bring back the dangerous NPCs. Get rid of the fucking reinforcements. Make the bosses HARD again.

    Remember back in Vanilla, there was that website which listed the most dangerous bosses in the game, by player deaths? The top bosses by MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS were Drek and Van. This wasn't because groups magically tried to zerg the boss over and over, graveyard ressing until he was down, it was simply because they were difficult, hit hard, and could only be realistically downed when you REALLY had the upper hand.

    NOT just when you capped a few towers and magically despawned the defenders.

    Have we heard any information in regards to how they stated they were turning the 40-man BGs into "War Games" instead of BGs? Perhaps that's the start of the resurrection of the former glory of AV - and don't get me wrong, it was an AMAZING experience, for those not fortune enough to enjoy it in the past. It was EXCITING calling in the wolves/druids/lok'holar etc. It was rewarding pushing the other team back by brute force and superior tactics. There's NOTHING like that in AV anymore, and it's a crying shame.

  11. #11
    Epic! Doctor Blithe's Avatar
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    Constraint makes a really good point; and I like Matt's idea on having caps based on proximity instead of the usual. Mingling the two would definitely make it a great battleground again. There's nothing fun about a rush, and turtling can go both ways.

  12. #12
    Couldn't take OP seriously after in 2 paragraphs he blamed map balance for horde losing and then admitted they lose ebcause they don't back cap (which is easier for horde)

    Learn to AV /thread
    "Moral reason must learn how to make coercion its ally without running the risk of a Pyrrhic victory in which the ally exploits and negates the triumph."

  13. #13
    I think that the only thing to save Alterac Valley is a return to its classic iteration. The moment whichever team of geniuses at Blizzard decided to "streamline" the battleground is when everything went to shit. It's supposed to be an epic war effort, one that lasts for hours upon hours; not a few honour points waiting to be collected in a swift manner.

  14. #14
    It's a sad day because I no longer remember the names of the lieutenants and commanders...

    Personally I'd move the Horde cave back up to where it was before because the change makes the run back to the Horde base that much longer. Maybe also rethink the bridge because knockbacks did not exist when the map was created.

  15. #15
    Epic! Doctor Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Couldn't take OP seriously after in 2 paragraphs he blamed map balance for horde losing and then admitted they lose ebcause they don't back cap (which is easier for horde)

    Learn to AV /thread
    It's true in that it's imbalanced, especially when it comes to Towers. Horde Towers are much closer together and easier to cap; you don't have to deal with NPC's, or run larger distances to reach them where as Horde do, but I guess we make up for this by having a stronger turtle.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitheqt View Post
    It's true in that it's imbalanced, especially when it comes to Towers. Horde Towers are much closer together and easier to cap; you don't have to deal with NPC's, or run larger distances to reach them where as Horde do, but I guess we make up for this by having a stronger turtle.
    Read what you just wrote. The towers are closer together, which makes taking them easier. It therefore makes RETAKING them just as easy. Just because horde don't know how to play AV doesn't mean its the maps fault.
    "Moral reason must learn how to make coercion its ally without running the risk of a Pyrrhic victory in which the ally exploits and negates the triumph."

  17. #17
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Read what you just wrote. The towers are closer together, which makes taking them easier. It therefore makes RETAKING them just as easy. Just because horde don't know how to play AV doesn't mean its the maps fault.
    Except a tower with no players in a tower with players in a completely different entities. Once a player is in a tower (Which you always are when you are attempting to cap) horde is harder to take than alliance because alliance flag is a lot easier to access while being hard to hit - throw multiple players in and many times I've taken an alliance flag with 3 allies in their bunker. This DOES NOT happen in a horde tower.

    Easier to defend, harder to take back (with players). It's balanced if the rewards for long vs short games are equivalent, but shorter games are better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #18
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Except a tower with no players in a tower with players in a completely different entities. Once a player is in a tower (Which you always are when you are attempting to cap) horde is harder to take than alliance because alliance flag is a lot easier to access while being hard to hit - throw multiple players in and many times I've taken an alliance flag with 3 allies in their bunker. This DOES NOT happen in a horde tower.

    Easier to defend, harder to take back (with players). It's balanced if the rewards for long vs short games are equivalent, but shorter games are better.
    Then wouldn't those sam towers be easier for the Horde to defend in the first place?
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  19. #19
    Nah it's nice that alliance manage to actually win 1 of the BG's (well 2 if you also include IoC). Horde win the others more often tha not.

  20. #20
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Then wouldn't those sam towers be easier for the Horde to defend in the first place?
    Yes, but longer games are less honor currently so losing fast is worth it over winning slow. Horde is the defensive faction and can force a turtle if they play defensively. The problem being you're still risking losing (not that this is ACTUALLY A problem, just with current honor gained from W/L) and even with a win 30mins later you could have lost 3-4 times in that period.

    I noticed horde AV queues were near instant during the weekend particularly, 0 reason to attempt a turtle win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

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