Thok's Tail Tip for WW?

[Enpoli]

@jwx

I was actually looking at the top monks on ProRaiders and then checking out their armories. These are people that consistently produce the highest dps across all bosses, not just one or two lucky parses. Still a valid point, but I was surpised when I checked ~40 different armories (both 10 and 25man raiders) and still didn't see a single monk using TTT. I know its a pain to acquire, and pretty much guaranteed we won't be seeing a WF version.. but still, I was surprised that no one was using it.

[Promdates]

Celestalon just confirmed that it is multiplicative with the meta.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...27925323374592

He followed up with the correct formula:

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...29346240323585

Trinket only applies to crit bonus damage, not the whole crit damage.

(1 + 1 * 1.09) * 1.03

So, what I posted was right? The Trinket is only applied to the damage, and the meta is applied to everything. Glad to know that Celestalon verified what I posted. Thanks Hinalover

[Totaltotemic]

@jwx

I was actually looking at the top monks on ProRaiders and then checking out their armories. These are people that consistently produce the highest dps across all bosses, not just one or two lucky parses. Still a valid point, but I was surpised when I checked ~40 different armories (both 10 and 25man raiders) and still didn't see a single monk using TTT. I know its a pain to acquire, and pretty much guaranteed we won't be seeing a WF version.. but still, I was surprised that no one was using it.

Right, and as we've just been over the reason why no one really uses it is that it's incredibly difficult to make the argument that it's better than an equivalent TED. At the end of the day a H WF TED is the best trinket you can get to pair with Haromm's, so the only reason someone would have a TTT is if they either get a heroic warforged TTT (spoilers: your tanks and plate DPS would throw a huge fit if you got one instead of them upgrading to H WF from Heroic), which won't happen, or a heroic TTT after everyone else has gotten one but you still haven't gotten a heroic TED. It's extremely unlikely that someone would get a TTT that's a higher ilvl than the TED they have, and even then it would only be temporary.

[brt2pp]

i'm kinda happy with mine harom and {trinket from blackfuse}

[Ayr]

I would love it if I could even get a normal TED to drop. Switching between a normal TTT and was using AoC on HSeigecrafter belt duty.

Enjoying the information here, and the math to get into the nitty gritty of it all.

[Callimonk]

I would love it if I could even get a normal TED to drop. Switching between a normal TTT and was using AoC on HSeigecrafter belt duty.

Enjoying the information here, and the math to get into the nitty gritty of it all.

You can have mine. But only because you're Ayr.

(That said, I'd really like to coin something other than gold.

[Promdates]

(That said, I'd really like to coin something other than gold.

Funny story, every Malkorok kill I've done on my warrior I've yet to get the Vial trinket (we had one HWF drop, went to our paladin tank) including Flex and LFR. I did coin Heroic bracers and was saddened that they sold for less than the gold I could have gotten (18g sale, instead of 24g coin roll).

[Ayr]

You can have mine. But only because you're Ayr.

(That said, I'd really like to coin something other than gold.

Awwwwwwww. Internet high-foot. Because monks.

I will say I sorta feel bad about passing up a H WF AoC now, could've been useful since I doubt I will ever see TED. X_x

[Serendepityz]

@jwx

I was actually looking at the top monks on ProRaiders and then checking out their armories. These are people that consistently produce the highest dps across all bosses, not just one or two lucky parses. Still a valid point, but I was surpised when I checked ~40 different armories (both 10 and 25man raiders) and still didn't see a single monk using TTT. I know its a pain to acquire, and pretty much guaranteed we won't be seeing a WF version.. but still, I was surprised that no one was using it.

While i admit i have not played with a Thok's I in no way shape or form can we it out performing a TED of equal ilvl. I still don't quite understand why but most windwalkers underestimate how much dps a 17-19 stack TED FoF will do (and its not hard to get off with Chi Brew.) Usually with a TEB ticking for upwards of 600k crits. The only reason I can't completely say TED>Thok's is that as most people have said without it being fairly obvious its BIS there is no way im getting a warforged one over anyone else anytime soon. Even when most of them have Heroic Thok's

[Stuffs]

Awwwwwwww. Internet high-foot. Because monks.

I will say I sorta feel bad about passing up a H WF AoC now, could've been useful since I doubt I will ever see TED. X_x

Im using a flex TED+ H AoC because I cant get anything

Could be worse

[Promdates]

While i admit i have not played with a Thok's I in no way shape or form can we it out performing a TED of equal ilvl. I still don't quite understand why but most windwalkers underestimate how much dps a 17-19 stack TED FoF will do (and its not hard to get off with Chi Brew.) Usually with a TEB ticking for upwards of 600k crits. The only reason I can't completely say TED>Thok's is that as most people have said without it being fairly obvious its BIS there is no way im getting a warforged one over anyone else anytime soon. Even when most of them have Heroic Thok's

I only recall one or two people being advocates of using FoF. Pretty much everyone else I've ever seen on here says they never use it.

[Babylonius]

I only recall one or two people being advocates of using FoF. Pretty much everyone else I've ever seen on here says they never use it.

The people who say they never use it are doing it wrong. The players who should be giving advice are the ones who advocate using it as often as possible, provided all the requirements to use it are met. Its a DPS increase to use it correctly and a DPS decrease to use it incorrectly. Its just not easy to use it correctly so most players just avoid it. The majority not using it doesn't make them right.

[Serendepityz]

I only recall one or two people being advocates of using FoF. Pretty much everyone else I've ever seen on here says they never use it.

In the first week of 5.4 only 1 or 2 people were advocates of Chi Brew. Infact alot of the people who post often on the forums said Chi brew was at most a 1-2% dps increase and these are the same people that now preach Chi Brew > Ascension. Its just people who either don't see results in game or want to believe FoF is not a required part of the rotation to simplify it for themselves.

[Jayma]

In the first week of 5.4 only 1 or 2 people were advocates of Chi Brew. Infact alot of the people who post often on the forums said Chi brew was at most a 1-2% dps increase and these are the same people that now preach Chi Brew > Ascension. Its just people who either don't see results in game or want to believe FoF is not a required part of the rotation to simplify it for themselves.

?
Chi brew was a 1-2% dps increase and since then it got buffed.

[Totaltotemic]

In the first week of 5.4 only 1 or 2 people were advocates of Chi Brew. Infact alot of the people who post often on the forums said Chi brew was at most a 1-2% dps increase and these are the same people that now preach Chi Brew > Ascension. Its just people who either don't see results in game or want to believe FoF is not a required part of the rotation to simplify it for themselves.

It was only 1-2% better, now it's 3-4% better. Did you miss the part where Chi Brew was hotfixed to provide ~40-50% more TEB?

Anyway, FoF only gets marginally more useful with TED. The BoKs could be done at the beginning anyways, the only part that really benefits from the snapshotting is the part that's a replacement for AAs. I did some math on this a while back and found that the whole "but it snapshots!" thing to actually matter less with TED than it would with the last second of any other trinket because the snapshotting with TED only increases the average Agi by about 2-3k whereas extending, say, a Haromm's proc is a 10k+ difference.

What makes TED likely better than Thok's is Tigereye Brew because WWs selectively increase their damage based on expected spikes in DPS and the spike is much larger with TED than it is with TTT which has a higher "resting rate" instead. If it wasn't for TEB, we could probably say that it's so close that it comes down to personal preference, but TEB makes procs more important and thus weights some of the trinket's worth towards the proc end rather than the passive end.

I've thought and talked about this more times than I can count, but DPS is an equation of a series of options (variables) where only one combination of all of the variables can have the greatest outcome. What is the most DPS is using FoF without capping energy, wasting RSK cd time, or losing ticks of FoF (whether through accidental cleaving or movement), however the snapshotting factor of FoF is enough to override either the RSK CD or energy provisions, but not both at the same time. It's also important when talking about FoF and trinkets to note that AoC is devalued not because FoF is difficult to use properly, but because the conditions that make using FoF the correct choice do not typically happen more often than its 25 second cooldown anyways; that's a fundamentally different statement than not using FoF simply because it is difficult and doesn't provide a huge benefit.