What are the thee affects of the three talents for Spriest and what will be the most powerful one?
1-Clarity of Power
(for pvp and pve)
What are the thee affects of the three talents for Spriest and what will be the most powerful one?
1-Clarity of Power
(for pvp and pve)
Just from reading them it seems they could all be situationally useful. Looks like they'll largely be balanced around what ever number void entropy puts out, depending on their intent for each one ofc
but ye, too little to go on at this point
Clarity of Power:
- likely originally meant for helping spriests burst down low HP adds, using an alternate rotation - Clarity of Power is unlikely to go live as it is currently proposed
- not having Vampiric Touch active on our targets means it is not a functional alternate rotation of its own, since it will quickly drive us OOM on its own
- the best way to use the current design is, paradoxically, on Multi-dot fights - taking Divine Insight (Mind Blast procs) and FDCL (Mind Spike procs)
- in Multi-DOT we would dot up long-term targets, and funnel huge procs and the MsK/MB rotation into low health adds, or any high priority target (MsK would receive +50% from FDCL, and +40% from CoP, MB procs would receive +40%).
- Alternately, running ToF + CoP + FDCL in the same scenario could yield +40% * +50% * +15% on our Mind Spikes, and maintain +15% ToF on our DoT targets
- one issue with the proposed CoP cycle, is that it would leave a big boring gap in our rotation during Devouring Plague, with us either taking FDCL for bigger procs, or Mindbender for help with mana, or Insanity to have something to do while we wait for DP to tick out
- this is problematic, because it may even mean that waiting for DP to tick out would be a DPS waste with CoP Mind Spikes standing by - we would be encouraged to DP and then wipe our own DP off the target to continue our rotation, its really dumb, and clearly no spriest was involved in its creation
- this talent could prove very effective in both PvE and PvP, but not for the reasons it was intended (multi-dotting and proc stacking was likely not their intent)
- without DoT snapshotting, this talent will either be absolutely terrible in everything, or overpowered in PvE council fights
- defensive dispels will likely make it practically useless in PvP, consuming 3 orbs, providing no healing, and taking 60 seconds to make itself worthwhile (in a world where six seconds is considered a very slow burst cycle)
- part of the problem is that it needs to be worth significantly more damage than a devouring plague, since it doesn't heal, doesn't burst, doesn't permit Insanity, risks not running its full course before the boss dies, is extremely at risk of 'miss' - and the only way it can make up for those shortcomings is by doing additional damage, for each shortcoming it has
- so Void Entropy needs to do like, Devouring Plague DPS - except for the full 60 seconds, or it will never be the right choice
- if it does DP-like DPS, then cleaving it on council fights will be overpowered (like Doom for Locks) - and will get Void Entropy nerfed (because we can't have nice things)
- so, because of the above, the current model of Void Entropy - like Clarity of Power - will likely never go live, and clearly didn't involve a Spriest in its design, because this dilemma is also pretty obvious
- this talent, like the others, will never see Beta without a significant redesign, clearly whoever thought of it doesn't know what Shadow Orbs do
- if it were to go live, the first implication would be that Shadowpriests must now stand in melee range of everything, to shorten the flight-time and spirit-cap of our apparitions (they become far too important to stand at range)
- multi-dotting pain on targets in melee range would spam us with orbs almost faster than we could use it, and would lead to multi-dotting Devouring Plague (likely we could have 2-4 Devouring Plagues active at any given time)
- apart from the DPS implications of that, 2 devouring plagues active at the same time would yield at least ~10% of max hp per second, 4 would yield ~20% obviously - and we would fluctuate between 10-20% of max hp (or more, scaling quickly with haste/mastery on DP ticks) per second, for as long as that phase continues (perhaps the entire fight, on many fight styles)
- so clearly, that will never go live either - even on a single target fight, that many spirits would yield probably 100% uptime on Devouring Plague, and therefore Insanity as well - which might actually make us not suck at single target (but since we will be rebalanced in WoD, it would more likely make us overpowered, with this talent)
TL;DR - none of this will make it live, I'm surprised they even bothered to write it down publically
I was under the impression void entropy would be like the old DP and only be usable on a single target. Assuming that's it's overall DPS over 60sec is higher than DP - with the other 2 talents being balanced around this. It would make it a way to increase our single target damage without adding burst or pvp implications. Certainly interested to see how this interacts with SWI (would expect a similar workaround as GoSac and soul link)
either way, ye pretty much everything yvaelle said, far too many unknowns.
One way they could avoid the whole hassle with balancing Void Entropy between single boss and council fights would be to simply put a one target limit on Entropy (Edit: beaten to it by Redsparowe ), and in return make it a sufficiently powerful dot that it can compete with the single target dps gain of Clarity of Power (although I wouldn't mind if Entropy was a few % higher overall on single target fights, since Clarity sounds much easier to work with, the damage being instant vs a 60s dot).
Then again Affliction has no such limitations so why should we? Balance is apparently being given additional multi-dot utility as well (gaining an AoE Malefic Grasp of sorts), so maybe they are intent on leveling the multi-dot playing field a little, something I'd really welcome.
I can't imagine they would make Entropy mutually exclusive with devouring plague, how else would we dump our orbs during the Entropy's uptime?
As Yvaelle pointed out Auspicious Spirits will be awkward at best if the design went through as it is.. in functionality it is very similar to Divine Insight (except we don't have to wait for our DI procs to slowly float towards our target). Not to mention it would cause one talent to be drastically more dependent on crit than the other 2, and that would be against their new design philosophy of keeping secondaries close to each other in value across all dps specs..
Can't wait to see what progress they've made on these designs, if any.. beta can't come soon enough.
Last edited by Calamari; 2014-02-22 at 05:53 PM.
The biggest single problem I have with Shadow DPS talent tiers is that all too often, they all perform the same niche.
FDCL - multi-dot, but only when adds never reach execute range (because execute range gives us orbs, and orbs give us increased Insanity uptime)
Mindbender - single target option
Insanity - single target option, works best when frequent use of execute range mobs for higher orb generation
The problem with the above, is that Insanity is almost always the right choice in this tier, why you ask? Insanity and Mindbender have the same niche (ST), so since Insanity is the slightly higher of the two choices even for pure single target - Mindbender becomes a useless talent for us (apart from being adorable! ^^). Similarly, FDCL appears as though it should be the best on some kind of pure council fight (like Ascendant Council, perhaps) - where we can't get ToF uptime off adds (Troll Council in ToT) - and we will run DoTs on many targets simultaneously.
Sounds decent right? Except, in the exact same scenario - council fights where ToF can't be gamed - Divine Insight is our multi-dot council fight talent. Divine Insight buffs Shadow Orb generation, which buffs Insanity uptime - which makes Insanity too strong, even in FDCL's niche.
There are some fights where I take FDCL of course - Fallen Protectors for example - where I like multi-dotting, but also want mobility and the ability to pump damage into a high priority add occasionally. There are some fights where I take mindbender... like farm fights where I want a cute little Voidoctopus friend, instead of wall-licking shadowfiend slobbering everywhere.
The point is - instead of having distinct niches for each of the talents (ie. single target, multi-dot, aoe) - we have two sets of 'two talents which do kind of the same thing, but one of which is better' - and the winner in both sets is the same talent. Stronger niche differentiation between the talents would fix this problem. One should be the clear winner on multi-dot, one on single target, one on AoE: there is currently no AOE option.
This is I propose things like making Mindbender baseline, and giving Shadow "Shadow Crash" in its place - a delayed mass aoe burst. For AoE fights, Shadow Crash would be the clear winner, against FDCL and Insanity. That leaves us with the Insanity vs. FDCL issue - part of the solution to this would be to give FDCL procs a higher DPET, so that on very active fights where we don't have the time or mobility to channel Insanity - FDCL shines. We could accomplish that either by buffing FDCL, or buffing Mind Spike (probably the better call, since the base casts are so very pathetic right now), or if Clarity of Power remained (so that we could stack FDCL with CoP, and possibly ToF).
The level 100 talents suffer a similar fate. Clarity of Power is best on multi-dot fights, Void Entropy is best on multi-dot fights, and Auspicious Spirits is best on multi-dot fights. None of these talents are good at single target, none of them are good at AoE - or any other niche. A better design philosophy would be to try to balance the niches first, and then build talents around what would accomplish that goal.
ToF and Divine Insight are pretty good talents - but Power Infusion is still too weak for Shadow. Rather than just tacking on 5% extra damage for Shadow's version (less than we all told them it needed to be) - I would much rather see them do something cool with that cooldown - like make our Mindbender's attacks (I made it baseline for Shadow remember) cause our next Mindblast, Mind Spike, or Shadow Word: Death do 100% additional damage: so that we have our set bonus from Dragon Soul back again
That would become a powerful single target cooldown, and would differentiate it from the multi-dot (with adds) vs. multi-dot (council) of ToF vs. DI.
The same is true for our level 90 options - Halo, Cascade, and Star are all variations of AoE, whether we are clumped with them, we are 25 yards away from the clump, or whether they are distributed 40 yards apart around the room. They all perform essentially the same task - so the choice becomes "do we want more healing for our raid? (divine star", "do we want fewer GCD expenditures? (halo)" and "do we want higher damage, if the adds are arranged just so? (cascade)". The talents were clearly designed with healers in mind, and they function for Shadow - we should keep them i think - but having them all do essentially the same thing is dumb.
Our level 100 talents suffer from this exact problem as well - the choice as seen from the niche perspective is multidot (CoP), or multidot (Void Entropy), or multidot (Auspicious Spirits). When it should be more like multidot vs. single target vs. burst cooldown vs. aoe vs. mobility (pick 3). I put mobility in there because our moving DPS is so bad that giving us Blink, or Displacer Beast, or Demonic Circle, or Spiritwalkers Grace, or Disengage, or cast-while-moving, would be a DPS boost on the order of giving us a level 100 talent at this point, on some fights (a niche) ><
I don't think that Void Entropy as an Orb-Finishing-Move is a good call. Shadow needs a better and more robust orb system overall - not just a single talent which give us a 'choice' of something else to do with our orbs (Psychic Horror doesn't count). For example, our finishing move probably shouldn't even be called Devouring Plague - since we're not all Undead (sorry undead spriests). It's especcially not a great design because one of the main ways we could get orbs is Auspicious Spirits - which is exclusive to the talent that gives us a second way to spend them (Void Entropy).
It's hard to speculate any further on 100 talents - because I honestly think Shadow needs some real design changes this expansion - not just random half-baked talents tacked on at 100: and any real design change would change how these talents work and what they mean.
Mindbender isn't single target talent. The funny thing with it is that it's far better than some people think it is. Mindbender has it niche which is aoe/cleave since it's the only talent in this tier that allows us to mindsear without it being dps loss that's why It's the perfect choice for fights like protectors/spoils/immerseus even galakras/siegecrafter its decent as it boosts our mana regen (and since nowadays mobs die so fast I usually only swp them , so getting OOM is quite common). I really like T45 talents, if only fcdl gets buffed a bit it would be awesome.
Fdcl is so bad that, even in pvp, where you'd expect that at high levels, people would dispel the DP or interrupt the mind flay immediately, insanity is still taken over Fdcl.
Clarity of Power seems like its going to be our biggest sources of single target dps. When it comes to pvp and multitarget, I'm actually somewhat concerned with how much possible burst FDCL and DI could have on targets that don't have dots. For pve, it may be possible to have a bunch of adds just be tanked as proc fodder, you could potentially stack several shadowpriests that just leave VT/SWP rolling on a pack or add, while taking ToF or DI, and then have FDCL procs with a 50% and a further 40% damage modifier (210% damage), in addition to 140% MBs. Again... the reason our dots got a strong as they were was because of trying to pull burst away from MB... and now we've come full circle. I don't want to see another cycle where shadowpriests are given too much single target burst causing us to be nerfed for pvp yet again.
Void Entropy has potential. With a dot that long rolling on a council fight, my guess is that you'll want to take PI. As soon as the dots are rolling on every target, pop PI+damage cooldowns and all 12-13 dots are now ticking for insane damage. Its got a long ramp up without DI, but I think it really might work out better.
Auspicious Spirits sounds like the alternative for Clarity of Power, for the shadowpriest that intends to remain true to shadow as a dot class. It might be the talents that hits the middle ground between the other two, although there's no way I expect 100% proc chance on that to hit live.
With all the new stats, I'd really like to see shadow as a class that continues to scale well with haste in most cases. The one stat I'd like to see Blizzard actually steer away from is Crit. If at any point we need nerfs, I'm almost positive it will be due to excessive burst scaling with crit in PVP. Personally, I'd like to see shadow be at its best with a combo of haste/mastery/multistrike.
My guess is that regardless, clarity of power will play slightly differently, especially with regards to haste (perhaps only wanting to hit DP+1 or +2, for the full extra tick, rather than a partial), perhaps replacing haste with CDR (cool down reduction) for more mindblasts, and maybe mindbenders/shadowfiends. I'd really be curious if CDR will effect PI.
A.SP increases HP generation and works exceptionally well with Insanity. For Entropy to work it has to be equal the damage of 1 DP + 3 Insanities, plus the number of DPs + Insanities A.SP generates per minute. With current gear values we're looking at 5 DPs per minute - that would require Entropy to tick for a lovely 200k at 30 ticks per minute. But even then you're loosing out on a massive around of self-regen.
Entropy will never be able to compete with an A.Sp. Even if Entropy would be able to match A.SPs damage (that is A.SP is massively capped - the current Press build change with orb instead of dealing damage is far from enough with how little damage SA deal), there still are three big issues: No Self Heal, No Insanity and No Burst capability.
I'd argue that haste for a lower Mind Spike cast time will result in more Mind Blasts with Clarity due to the passive -1 sec MB on it.perhaps replacing haste with CDR (cool down reduction) for more mindblasts,
I expect CDR to be impossible to balance (that is make it useful) for shadowpriests:
- For CDR to be even a consideration, it has to contain Mindblast. Shadow Fiend alone is so little (3%) of our damage, that it can't work.(bad)
- CDR reducing Mindblast is countering Divine Insight (bad)
- Ugly gameplay at high CDR levels (low CD MB isn't good, we had it for 2 weeks in MoP beta when haste reduced MB CD) (bad)
- Clarity of Power (a coneptional single-target talent) has a built in "-1 CD on MB per MSp"effect. That will most likely scale better with haste than with CDR, plus haste also benefits ALL of our other spells, while CDR doesn't.
- Haste effectivly reduces Mind Blast cooldown, because you cast it faster.
- Shadow Fiend and Mind Bender do not scale with Mastery, a Mastery + CDR combination is generally bad.
- CDR works with one(two) talents - that is Mind Bender (and maybe Insanity). Haste/Crit/Mastery/Multi-Strike work with several of our talents.
If you cannot put VE dot on the boss together with DP -which I doubt, since nothing of that is mentioned- you can still use DP on secondary targets.
Which means, yes, you could combine VE with PI to snapshot PI. You cannot use it to snapshot your trinket procs, weapon procs. As such, the burst you gain is much less RNGish and less overall as well. I consider it a Good Thing.
- - - Updated - - -
"When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."
For some reason, I didn't understand Power Infusion affected DoTs while it was active. I guess the meaning of dynamic DoTs never clued in. It's interesting if Power Infusion increases DoT haste on already active dots. It might be a viable cooldown, finally.
I still hate Void Entropy with a passion.
Edit: for the record, I'm thinking like WotLK / Cata Power Infusion usage - PI has (almost) no good uses in MoP
If PI is going to work like TF and Eclipse (and I don't see why not), PI will still supports dot snapshotting. It would remain working as it is today. Given its a 2 minute CD and our dots last less than 20 seconds I don't think its a huge deal.
Like I said, people don't understand dot snapshotting isn't completely removed. I'd say it is "toned down" since its removed from trinkets and procs, not from CDs and certain (?) class mechanics. Eclipse is a class mechanic which Blizzard confirmed still supports dot snapshotting. As a rule of thumb moonkins will be reapplying dots ideally when they enter Eclipse or right before they leave Eclipse. Which is how I remember it from Cata.
We also get Pandemic.
Would it break a trinket like UVLS? Assuming the crit buff changes on the fly like SP would (currently crit is snapshotted on the trinket): yes and no. Yes, you wouldn't be able to reapply and snapshot. You could wait popping your CD (PI/SF in our case) until the proc occurs (or any good procs for that matter). No, your 100% crit would apply to everything on the fly so it'd just be a short burst. It could also still proc certain mechanics like Starsurge and with low amount of crit in start of expansion that'd be great. With Doom, since Doom only ticks every 15 sec it'd depend on how long the 100% crit (or whatever proc) would last and how long it would take to proc to occur and how RNG it is if the proc is going to occur. If it were same as UVLS, no. It'd also all depend on the set bonuses since that is what fueled the trinket as well for us.
If you take a trinket like BBoY/Wushoolay's these would still also work with PI.
If Blizzard wants CDR to reduce PI they need to make PI baseline, add 2 more options with a CD to that tree, or be OK with CDR affecting only 1 talent from the tree. The latter would be OK. After all, it isn't something available on 1 out of 3 or 4 trinkets in the raid instance. Instead, it will be a minor bonus on gear, not a common stat. Removing ToF and DI, well I wouldn't miss my ToF on pull macro that is for sure. DI, it overlaps with FDCL, so they could move DI and FDCL in the same tree. If they put PI and MB in the same tree they only need to add 1 more CD for us. Since Void Entropy is a CD that'd make #3. It'd be against the spirit of having a new talent at level 100, and it'd be a terrible CD on low level too. Heck it'd be a terrible CD for any content except a raid boss. So instead of juggling around CDs in the talent tree maybe they will remove one of the proc-based talents. Especially the level 75 talent tree has heavy emphasis on procs and the new level 100 introduces 1 more. I'd say 4 in total with 2 in 1 tree is 1 too many. So either remove ToF or DI. Since we're balanced around high ToF uptime, remove it, remove level 90 off healing (with the possibility of a glyph which reduces the damage our level 90 talents but increases their healing) and increase our overal damage slightly.
Channeled Divine Star/Cascade/Halo well a nerf to the cool stuff from MoP was incoming. Psychic Scream removed, not a big deal. I'm sure Howl of Terror is also removed. Maybe Psychic Scream will become a channeled spell you can talent for, who knows. We're still very early in development.
Last edited by lolalola; 2014-02-24 at 06:29 PM.
"When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."
Shadow priest really need to be overhauled big time. the state it is right now is broken.
This is my proposed changes to the spec. please note these are the shadow counterpart of the spells im not gonan introduce what happens if you are holy or disc.
Void Tendrills (1sec cast time 30sec CD rooting up to 5 enemy players within 8 yards of caster for 20sec (8sec in pvp)))
Psyfiend changed into Void Touched (Void touched is a 6sec sleep on a 1.2sec cast (20sec iv pve))
Dominate Mind (1.5sec cast mind control up to 30sec (8sec in pvp))
Body and Soul (When you cast power word : shield or leap of faith, you increase the target's movement speed by 50% for 5 sec)
Angelic Feather (8sec recharge only 3 feathers can be place at one time. increase movement speed by 80% for 5sec)
Phantasm (Remove all movement imparing effects from yourself and movement speed by 10% for 5sec when casting fade, can not bring you below 100% movement)
FDCL (dmg from Vampiric touch has a 15% chance to give you a instant cast mind spike free from mana that deals 80% more dmg 3 charges)
Shadow Tentacles (45 sec CD Summon a massive amount tentacles scrathes the target from underground(cannot be targeted) Deals aoe damage in 8 yards around the target last 10sec, will move around if target moves.
Solace and Insanity (Not changed cba to list the effects it does)
Desperate Prayer (Does not break shadowform, instantly heals the caster for 40% 2min cd)
Angelic Bulwark (Puts a shield on you if your health goes below 20% for 40% of your hp ICD 120sec)
Holy surprise (Does not break shadowform, regenerate 50% of your health over 15sec, 2min CD)
Twisting minds (Damaging a enemy that is below 30% health increases your damage done on him by 25%)
Power Infusion (1min CD increases your haste by 15% and damage by 15% last 15sec)
Divine Insight (7% chance when dealing dmg with shadow word: pain, to cause mind blast to be reset, instant and deal 7% more dmg)
Cascade (6 random friendly target within 60 yards(Mythic) gets healed for 10% of their total health over 5sec and deal same amount of dmg as healing to nearest target enemy, reverse if used on enemy first 1sec cast 30sec cd)
Divine star (shoot 3 stars in front of you that travels 24 yards heals and damage damage on their way back 15sec cd 1sec cast)(the stars will move like this \ | / )
Halo (50sec cd 25 yard range 1sec cast deals damage and healing to every target around you for 25 yards. same dmg at all yards)
Clarity of power (Changes Vampiric Touch so, that it give the raid 1.5% health every 3sec Instead of dealing dmg, changes Shadow word Pain: so that i regenerates 1% mana to the raid every 3 sec instead of dealing dmg, changes Devouring plague into devouring touch which deals x dmg 1sec cast time and cost 3 orbs, and also increases dmg done by Mind blast and mind spike, mind fly by 25%, mind spike will not remove dots from target)
Void Entropy (Replaces Devouring plague 1.5sec cast time deals dmg to target and every enemy within 3yards and heals yourself instantly for 33% of that amount reduced effect over 4 targets)
Auspicious Spirits (Your shadow apparations has double chance to spawn and deal 50% more dmg)
When choosing shadow spec. A Shadow priest can only cast not cast Binding heal, Flash Heal, Renew and Prayer of mending. Rest can be cast without chanceling shadowform.
ShadowForm ( Assumes shadowform, icnreases your shadow damage by 30% and increases your armor by 100% also increaases your raid members haste by 5% and health by 10%)
Dispersion (not changed)
Fade (not changed)
Fear Ward (not changed)
Hymn of Hope (Regenerates 3% mana to 6 random target(prefers healers) every 1sec for 5sec channel spell)
Inner Fire (Increases your armor by 40% and reduces spell dmg taken by 7%, also increases your spell power by 9% your movement speed by 5% and makes your spells cost 2% less mana)
Leap of Faith (Drags a friendly party or raid member to you 60sec CD 1sec cast time)
Levitate (Not changed)
Mass dispel (Dispel magic in a 15 yard radius, removing all harmful spells from each friendly target and 1 beneficial spell from each enemy target Effects up to 20 targets, 20sec CD 1.2sec cast (does not work in rated battleground or arena)
Mind Blast ( 1.8 sec cast 8sec cd deals damage and crants a shadow orb. Cast time and cd reduced by haste)
Mind Sear (Channeled spell causes a explosion of shadow magic around the target every 0.5sec for 2sec 7 yards around the target)
Mind Spike (1.5sec cast time (note deals 15% more damage than it does now))
Mind Vision (not changed)
Shadow Fiend (1min CD caster receives 3% mana when the shadowfiend attacks last 10sec)
Power word: Shield (15sec cd when used by shadow priest it will not apply the weakened soul effect (note effect is 60% of current shield))
Psychic Horror (60sec cd will make enemy target drop his weapon for 5 sec and be rooted in place in horror (note cost no orbs)
Psychic Scream (40sec cd causes 5 random enemies within 10 yards to flee for 8 sec in fear, damage may break the fear)
Ressurection (4sec cast cost 20% of mana can be cast in combat if used in combat there is a 5min cd on it. Resets when out of combat)
Shackle undead (not changed)
Shadow word: death (not changed)
Shadow word: pain (not changed)
Silence (25sec cd interupts and prevent the target from casting spells for 5sec(45sec cd in arena/rated battleground))
Vampiric Embrace (heals the raid for 2% of the damage done passiv)
Vampiric touch (not changed)
Void Shift (instantly puts your target and you at 50% health 10min cd)
Mastery: Shadowy Recall (not changed)
Shadow orbs (stacks up to 5)
Shadowy apparitions (4% chance when you deal dmg to spawn a shadow apparitions to deal dmg. This shadow apparition stand beside you for 6sec and cast 2 mind flay)
I have not put in specific dmg numbers sicne i have no clue how dmg will be in wod. and some spells might be nerfed buffed percentage wise but this is how i hope shadow will become in next expansion.