6.0 Paladin Discussion and Speculation (All Specs)

[Felspark]

Except inquisition is not a dps cool down. Just as slice and dice is not a dps cool down. It's a problematic charge up that makes us completely useless for three globals. That means an decrease in DPS outside of the hybrid tax, poor performance in PVP (I'd like to see you counter this statement as another person made it and it was ignored), and generally making ret feel like a cookie cutter spec. There is no complexity as a ret. We all know the rotation and we aren't given a system that compels intelligent gameplay. Look at Boomkin, that is a great spec that rewards smart choices and has significant complexity. You can't tell one good ret paladin from another, that is not the case for a boomkin. Playing ret with inquisition is straightforward, cut and paste. The vocal majority of ret paladins see these things as being true. I'd rather play a complex class than a keyboard roller.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Like I said in the other thread.
Would people have a problem with inq if it lasted 2 minutes? (basically avenging wrath without the hammer spam)

How would you add "complexity" ?
Only way I can think of is adding Divine Purpose back to the baseline spellbook (if you can call RNG dps increase complex).
DoT snapshots are gone with WoD so there's not any complexity with spreading Censure on 3 targets with trinket procs either.
Adding a brand new ability directly goes against the ability reduction scheme Blizzard are going with (even if I agree that ret needs at least 1 more button or mechanic to our single target arsenal, I would prefer DP baseline).

[Zabannith]

Ok, let me ask people this .. what if AW had a 20 sec cd on it? it last 20 seconds ..would you guys consider it a dps cd still? if you do then your point of view is skewed because inq is exactly the same as the example that I just gave.
you apply it once a min , when the buff is about to run out , effectively making it a 1 min cd

[Torgal]

And here I thought this was going to be a Paladin discussion thread, not an argument over one damn spell that some people like and others dislike. There's no discussion to be had about the spell, I don't know why people are trying so hard to attack/defend it.

Personally, I'm looking forward to what they haven't told us about the talents, I found many of what we have seen to be bland.

[Xs]

And here I thought this was going to be a Paladin discussion thread, not an argument over one damn spell that some people like and others dislike. There's no discussion to be had about the spell, I don't know why people are trying so hard to attack/defend it.

Personally, I'm looking forward to what they haven't told us about the talents, I found many of what we have seen to be bland.

You expected too much of the Internet.

[Chickat]

My thought on the light within as ret. Seal twisting option in a talent. I can see us switching from truth to righteousness to maintain the buffs.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Ok, let me ask people this .. what if AW had a 20 sec cd on it? it last 20 seconds ..would you guys consider it a dps cd still? if you do then your point of view is skewed because inq is exactly the same as the example that I just gave.
you apply it once a min , when the buff is about to run out , effectively making it a 1 min cd

Avenging Wrath would just be similar to Inquisition if AW is a 20 second CD. Believe me I'm being patient with you but I think what we have here is a conflict of beliefs and we may not ever agree.


So it's best to call this a draw for the life of this thread >.>

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

On one hand people are complaining that Inquisition isn't "fun" enough to use so they're fine with getting rid of it, doing so means our mastery would lose 30% scaling power and all our mastery triggering abilities would hurt because of that. Don't say "remove inquisition, it's not a fun mechanic", say "Inquisition isn't a fun mechanic, please add something to it."
This is what people need to do, removing inquisition will ruin ret severely which means blizzard has to re-balance every single ability AND our mastery to compensate for the removal of inq. Please, PLEASE stop saying that you want Inq gone. It's seriously important that it stays!

[Fhi]

Don't say "remove inquisition, it's not a fun mechanic", say "Inquisition isn't a fun mechanic, please add something to it."

I agree with this, even though I am in the camp who thinks the current incarnation of Inq does not add much to the gameplay. Obviously, this is something we disagree on. I want the current Inq - where you press the button for 3 HP every min to gain 30% holy damage - to go away, but I want something else to be put in its place, even if it's called Inquisition.

I would like Inquisition to add a tactical decision in our rotation. It's interesting that you compare it to AW. I think that AW is not as bland, simply because 1) you cannot have it up all the time, and 2) there are a few abilities that are tied with AW - Hammer spam being one. When I activate wings, I am making a decision to receive a boost in my damage output, knowing that I have to then make full use of the duration. For example, I might delay AW for a few seconds if I know that the raid leader is going to call for Bloodlust/Heroism soon, or if a boss if going to receive a "+damage taken" debuff.

As far as I know, you shouldn't macro AW to an ability so that you use it everytime it's up. That is what I feel the current Inq is doing - you just press it every 60 seconds or close to it. There is very little thought involved, other than perhaps the start when you decide whether a regular mob or add will die by the time you hit the first TV.

[clault]

As a dwarf Hpal, really excited about the Crit/ heal bonus. I just hope crit stays relevant!

[Kosha]

The sky isn't falling yet Bear. They might just make the buff it gives a 100% uptime passive and add something else to the ret rotation they deem more exciting. Worry about them taking the 30% holy power damage and crit chance increase out of the spec. Not the ability itself. Maybe a blue will answer this soon.

[Zabannith]

To change the pace a bit , what are your guys thoughts on the new racials? personally as a space goat ret i love the change ,it will be like having 3 professions I'm guessing

[PosPosPos]

As a dwarf Hpal, really excited about the Crit/ heal bonus. I just hope crit stays relevant!

Unfortunately for you, crit is the worst stat for holy paladins

[Jackielope]

As a dwarf Hpal, really excited about the Crit/ heal bonus. I just hope crit stays relevant!

It hopefully will be, especially if they manage to add some degree of depth for healing specs where secondary stat choices can affect the playstyle while still being good. They have the best opportunity ever to do that considering the massive stat and spell overhaul.

Unfortunately for you, crit is the worst stat for holy paladins

Crit is only -currently- the worst stat. We have no idea whether it will be come WoD. Don't count your chickens before they've hatched into iguanas.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

To change the pace a bit , what are your guys thoughts on the new racials? personally as a space goat ret i love the change ,it will be like having 3 professions I'm guessing

Most Alliance racials are getting much better so I'd say it's good to be Alliance Paladins for once.


/happydance

[Jackielope]

Most Alliance racials are getting much better so I'd say it's good to be Alliance Paladins for once.


/happydance

Wasn't it always good to be an Alli palli because Belf and Tauren racials were pretty much useless in the first place? You guys got +hit or +expertise, but Horde was stuck with minor mana regen and a crappy cast time AOE stun.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Wasn't it always good to be an Alli palli because Belf and Tauren racials were pretty much useless in the first place? You guys got +hit or +expertise, but Horde was stuck with minor mana regen and a crappy cast time AOE stun.

Yes but better racials makes me a happy person.

[PosPosPos]

Crit is only -currently- the worst stat. We have no idea whether it will be come WoD. Don't count your chickens before they've hatched into iguanas.

As a dwarf Hpal, really excited about the Crit/ heal bonus. I just hope crit stays relevant!

Given your track record at making uninformed assumptions and a general lack of reading comprehension, I am just going to make myself extremely and explicitly clear - I was responding to clault's claim that crit was relevant to begin with - it's not as you have also kindly mentioned yourself.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

For ret 1% str > 0,5% haste and 0,5% mastery.
If they let the human racial also give crit damage, cd reduction, cleave or whatever the new secondary stats are then it might be something to consider. Nothing is going to compare to Troll and Orc racials though. They should just make the troll give 1% haste like everyone else and Orcs 1% prime stat like Draenei will get. Stacking cds will always be better than minor perma stat increases (which is why engineering is far better than JC, Enchanting, LW and so on) just hope Blizz has the balls to go through with it

[Shelly]

Ok, let me ask people this .. what if AW had a 20 sec cd on it? it last 20 seconds ..would you guys consider it a dps cd still? if you do then your point of view is skewed because inq is exactly the same as the example that I just gave.
you apply it once a min , when the buff is about to run out , effectively making it a 1 min cd

It would then be a maintenance buff and pretty much lose anything special or purposeful about it. I get the viewing of Inquisition as a dps CD, but that's not what it is at all. A CD has just that, a cool down period. Meaning it can't be up all the time so you have to choose when to use it correctly to insure maximum efficiency and results. A maintenance skill is just that, maintenance. It's all about making sure it's up all the time.

It's the difference between a nitrous oxide booster on your car - the cooldown - and just having gas in the tank.

Like I said in the other thread.
Would people have a problem with inq if it lasted 2 minutes? (basically avenging wrath without the hammer spam)

How would you add "complexity" ?
Only way I can think of is adding Divine Purpose back to the baseline spellbook (if you can call RNG dps increase complex).
DoT snapshots are gone with WoD so there's not any complexity with spreading Censure on 3 targets with trinket procs either.
Adding a brand new ability directly goes against the ability reduction scheme Blizzard are going with (even if I agree that ret needs at least 1 more button or mechanic to our single target arsenal, I would prefer DP baseline).

There are a few ways to add complexity:
1) Give it a shared CD with another ability. So say it then becomes you can either do 30% more holy damage for the next minute OR you could do the same damage with a built in cleave for 75% of your damage for the next minute.
2) Make it an actual CD, it would need to be changed to something other than a generic copy of AW but you could have it be like Banner of War where everyone in your group for the next X-seconds does an additional Y-Holy damage.
3) Remove the buff entirely and make it a different damage dealing ability in competition with TV and DS. Or more likely a heal in competition with WoG but that would really require a different name.

Any of those adds complexity to the ability because they now all have a dynamic choice attached to them. Do I do Inquisition or Ability-Y? Do I use my Inquisition now or do I need to save it for the pack of adds that will come into the fight in about 2-minutes? Do I spend this holy power on Inquisition or TV - which will give me the most damage in this particular situation against this many foes?