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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Raeph View Post
    I think so for Ret. If prot chooses it then I'm not really sure which choice it will be.

    If the gameplay video that they released last week or two weeks ago is any indication we should see 100k hp tanks at level 100 (maybe a bit more but that should be what we see).

    100k with the +3% Hp per sec bonus is obviously 3k hp per second, on top of whatever they do for self healing (depending on what they do with vengeance scaling on Eternal Flame/Word of Glory/Sacred Shield). Not sure what we can see with regard to tank AP, I'd guess somewhere in the range of 7-10k in the first tier, so that is only 700-1k AP with the 10% AP bonus.

    Guess we'll see. Don't really have time to napkin math it out atm.
    Not really much point even doing napkin maths when we have no idea what the updated attack power/spell power scaling will be, what with base damage being removed. Especially as the first balance pass will be a good two months after the beta starts.
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  2. #282
    Random thought...

    Blizzard likes a bit of randomness so lets remove seals as "stances" and tie it to Judgements...so when you judge a target one of 3 seals appears on the target.

    Seal of Truth - Preferred Single Target Seal/When used against a player it becomes Seal of Justice.
    Seal of Righteousness - Preferred AoE Seal
    Seal of Insight - Preferred Healing Seal

    So once you attain the seal you want on your target you can lock it in with Inquisition. As long as you maintain Inquisition then further judgements proc the seal.

    Seal of Truth - I wouldn't do a dot, I would do an extra strike or something with a revamped holy fire graphic or something as proc damage.
    Seal of Justice - Proc a slow that would get you to the next judgement blah blah blah
    Seal of Righteousness - AoE blast of light impacting all nearby targets (ignoring CC'd mobs/players)
    Seal of Insight - AoE blast of healing to all nearby targets

    Possibly the new L100 talent could be to give Judgment a charge system (like Warriors charge) to reduce some of the randomness and up your dps/healing and add a bit strategy. Just a fresh brainstorm, but certainly would spice up some rotations.

  3. #283
    Personally I do not like mechanics that can only be triggered by one ability. You will then always look out for those procs when using this single ability and praying to the rng gods to let it proc after that next button press. Rather I would like to see all our abilities have a certain chance to proc it. Then it wouln't be that predictable and furthermore not as frustrating because you always know the next button press, no matter which attack it is you are about to press, can proc the mechanic.
    Last edited by Kyra; 2014-03-03 at 04:21 PM.

  4. #284
    Makes sense to proc with all abilities, can certainly be balanced that way. On further reflection I like your way better (random proc on all HP giving abilities or something rather than 100% on Judgement)

  5. #285
    Herald of the Titans Nurvus's Avatar
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    Lovestar, you need more Crit and Mastery before trying to make a compelling argument out of ridiculing those who enjoy(ed) Seal Twisting and exaggerating its flaws with a Wall of Text.

    I don't particularly look forward Seal Twisting, with or without GCD, but I admit it is a good change of gameplay.
    Your counter-proposal (temporarily activating all seals) is the kind of Talent that would probably be weaker in its damage potential to compensate its increased utility, and remove choice because it just gives you everything in one button, both of which make you look rather contradicting in your assessment of the current state of The Light Within.
    Your other counter-proposals represent the blandest kind of Talent blizzard could come up with. The kind of talent you put in when you're really out of ideas.

    We don't yet know exactly how much GCD will be freed by the changes to secondary stats and our abilities, and as such saying that Seal Twisting is unviable is a baseless statement.

    Furthermore, the talents are not in their final iteration, and we may see llonger and/or stronger buffs compensating the GCD loss.

    Please be less hyperbolic.
    Last edited by Nurvus; 2014-03-03 at 04:26 PM.
    Why did you create a new thread? Use the search function and post in existing threads!
    Why did you necro a thread?

  6. #286
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    For the sake of helping keep conversations organized (as organized as they can be in large threads, anyways), there are now spec specific megathreads for Warlords.

    Protection

    Retribution

    Holy

    We'll keep general Paladin info to this thread from now on.

  7. #287
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellash View Post
    Lovestar, you need more Crit and Mastery before trying to make a compelling argument out of ridiculing those who enjoy(ed) Seal Twisting and exaggerating its flaws with a Wall of Text.
    I haven't ridiculed anyone nor am I trying to exaggerate flaws. I said straight-up that there's a legitimate market for it, but I'm sceptical that market will be large enough to keep the talent alive since Blizzard tends to redo or chop anything that proves too unpopular statistically.

    I like the idea, personally. I think the concept sounds cool — all the T100 talents sound cool. But you're looking at a class which for whatever reason has had Inquisition boosted from I think 18-24s or something crazy low in Cata Beta (!) to 30s via Inquiry of Faith to finally now 60s (!!) while also constantly increasing its ability to generate Holy Power during that time period.

    Blizzard doesn't make these decisions blindly. Even if Inq seems fine to you or me, they have good reasons for giving in or softening the requirements. In that environment, I'm sceptical that people will tolerate "Press Truth > Judge > wait 15s > Press Righteoussness > Judge > Press Truth". And if people don't even bother shifting out of Truth, then what you basically have is a passive 10% AP with some throwaway optional gimmick perks no one uses.

    And again, this is a talent. The rotation has to work without it. Which means it will either trample all over a clean rotation, or the baseline rotation will feel glacial and stilted without GCDs to plug up with Seals. Neither possibility is appealing IMO. That leaves off-GCD Seals, which has its own set of issues.

    Obviously, you're correct we don't know what's happening to rotations or ability lists yet, and that talents are still iterating. But since this is the 6.0 Speculation and Discussion thread, I decided to speculate and discuss based on what we do know. :p And my speculation is that no matter what Blizzard does design-wise for WoD, Seal Twists probably won't work out in practice based on preexisting patterns of player reactions — at least not as currently proposed.

    Our discussions are monitored during periods of development like this. Even if we're proposing concerns that are silly, overblown, or already neutralized internally, it still provides the devs part of what they're looking for — real-world expectations and reactions to their designs. I think that "Just wait and see what happens" is, generally, less useful than constructively speculating about flaws or issues or how you would use something.

    If the worst thing that happens is someone runs numbers and tells me I'm wrong and here's why — good!! Now we all know better. =)
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2014-03-03 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Borked the original Inq duration

  8. #288
    Stood in the Fire Zabannith's Avatar
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    updated op with dev watercooler stuffs for holy ppls
    New Ability: Renounce. When cast, Renounce permanently changes the Retribution Paladin into a Warrior and actually be able to dps worth a damn.

  9. #289
    Lay on Hands is currently exempted from the percentage-based heal "nerf" because of its super long cooldown and "once per fight" usage.

    Screenshot of conversation with Lore on twitter earlier today:
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  10. #290
    Stood in the Fire Zabannith's Avatar
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    Awesome I'll put that on the OP thx for the find
    New Ability: Renounce. When cast, Renounce permanently changes the Retribution Paladin into a Warrior and actually be able to dps worth a damn.

  11. #291
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensim View Post
    Blizzard likes a bit of randomness so lets remove seals as "stances" and tie it to Judgements
    I'd keep them as stances but how to work them as such....

    Maybe soemthign like...

    SoT - Extra Holy damage.
    SoR - Self heal plus Righteous Fury
    SoL - 5% healing increase

    EJL

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabannith View Post
    Awesome I'll put that on the OP thx for the find
    Hardly difficult to find, given that it was me that was talking to him
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  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Lay on Hands is currently exempted from the percentage-based heal "nerf" because of its super long cooldown and "once per fight" usage.
    Huh, I thought they wanted to move away from "uber-cds." I suppose it's not only balanced by its cd but its Forebearance lockout, as well. Still, I wonder why the longer cds like Reincarnate, Army of the Dead, Lay on Hands, etc. aren't either being retuned or removed.
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  14. #294
    The Undying Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    Huh, I thought they wanted to move away from "uber-cds." I suppose it's not only balanced by its cd but its Forebearance lockout, as well. Still, I wonder why the longer cds like Reincarnate, Army of the Dead, Lay on Hands, etc. aren't either being retuned or removed.
    Those aren't necessarily raid wide cooldowns.
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  15. #295
    I seem to recall reading a post a few years ago about how they pruned down long cd abilities because they didn't want classes to be reliant on them for dps/healing/whatever. This is alleviated with the current paradigm of boss encounters resetting cds on wipe, but I wonder if that design is still relevant. Alas, after a while of searching, I can't find the post, so I'm not sure if that was ever said.

    EDIT: Found it! From 2009.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard
    Hybrid and base class abilities
    We agree with Communism. We often give classes situational spells as base class abilities rather than as talented abilities for the same reason -- you're really only out a little gold by learning the ability. This is particularly a problem for hybrids. Nearly every rogue can find a use for Fan of Knives. Balance and Feral druids have much less use for Nourish. Heroic Throw is clearly a tanking tool.

    On the one hand, yeah it's cool if a hybrid class can make use of their ability regardless of role. However some of our balance problems currently are caused by hybrids being able to do too many things to well with the same spec. If the tool is good for the role that's intended to use it, there's a good chance it's going to be too good for the other roles. That's why we often prop abilities up with spec-specific talents. One of the problems with the Holy paladin tree is it doesn't grant enough healing focus for investing in the tree. At the same time, paladins can heal very well so it's not as simple as just going into the deep tree and smearing a bunch of +healing effects on existing talents everywhere. (Source)

    Paladin
    Lay of Hands
    We don't think "Sure I can heal myself for 25,000+ health as a dps spec or 50,000+ health as a tank, but not very often," is balanced. Abilities can be unbalanced even if overall a character is not. This isn't a non-issue just because it doesn't affect Arenas. Also, it doesn't mean paladins are being singled out for one-vs-one duel balance (though I'm sure I'm going to be reading that for months to come).

    If we gave warriors (especially Prot warriors) an ability to cause 50,000 damage in one hit with no preparation on a 90-minute cooldown, most reasonable players would call that a balance problem. The long cooldown doesn't save it. Beyond some point you can't balance a very powerful ability just by increasing the cooldown.

    In general, we've been moving away from long cooldowns anyway.
    (Source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...hp?f=2&t=26600)
    Last edited by Lyese; 2014-03-09 at 10:24 PM.
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  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    I seem to recall reading a post a few years ago about how they pruned down long cd abilities because they didn't want classes to be reliant on them for dps/healing/whatever. This is alleviated with the current paradigm of boss encounters resetting cds on wipe, but I wonder if that design is still relevant. Alas, after a while of searching, I can't find the post, so I'm not sure if that was ever said.

    EDIT: Found it! From 2009.


    (Source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...hp?f=2&t=26600)
    Paladins aren't reliant on Lay on Hands to heal. It is the button you want to never have to press. It is also a lot less important as a tank with 5xBoG WoG/EF healing you for 80+% health potentially every 15-20 seconds.
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  17. #297
    Stood in the Fire Zabannith's Avatar
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    updating OP with new infos , keep checking
    New Ability: Renounce. When cast, Renounce permanently changes the Retribution Paladin into a Warrior and actually be able to dps worth a damn.

  18. #298
    you know, I get the whole dps CDs trimming yada yada
    but guardian and wings were 2 of the most flashy and awesome looking abilities in the game, sad to see that you only get access to one of them now

    well guess they can always put in some minor glyph

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    you know, I get the whole dps CDs trimming yada yada
    but guardian and wings were 2 of the most flashy and awesome looking abilities in the game, sad to see that you only get access to one of them now

    well guess they can always put in some minor glyph
    Yeah, overall, I definitely get most of the changes. I understand the concept of streamlining, and generally support it. I do have some critiques (it feels like utility was handicapped across the board, though I feel Paladins already got the worst of that in Cataclysm), but what bothers me most is when the cool stuff gets trimmed. I know Blizzard cares about fun (they made a post on Hearthstone about how the perception of fun is often more important to them than statistical balance), so I'm saying this hoping they'll see it.

    Guardian of Ancient Kings may have been an awkward ability for the other specs, but come on... you get to summon a cool angel companion. Can that visual at least just proc off something else for the other specs, even if it isn't technically doing anything on its own?

  20. #300
    Inquisition being removed for Ret is... interesting. I wonder if they're going to balance the abilities so that it's not necessary anymore, or just bake it in. If they do, then it'll be a relatively nice quality of life improvement, not having to worry about Inquisition upkeep is not a bad thing.

    If they're just yanking it and no compensation, then I'll be very unhappy
    l

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