All 3 level 100 talents are a downgrade for MM/Surv PVP

[Deleted]

1. bola shot - the AoE can be exploited to break CC. If you trap the healer and use bola shot on the dps, he has 1 sec to move in 5y range of the healer to break him free. Or he can just stay on top of the healer and you can't use your focus dump.

2. snipe - you lose cobra/steady, can't move while casting, no way to use this in PVP ever

3. lone wolf - you lose too much utility by having no pet - cc, freedom, crit immunity, chasing rogues, healers

so it seems that if you want to PVP as MM or Survival, you can't take any of the 3 top level talents for pvp, because all of them make you worse.

I think they must change something - hopefully remove snipe altogether or make bola not affect CCed targets

[Eace]

I wouldn't be suprised to see a glyph for Bola which makes it not break CC. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Lone Wolf acting like GoSac for Warlocks, so that it gives the Hunter the pet's ability.

Anyway, we're not even close to these hitting live, so there's a lot of time for changes.

[mistahwilshire]

There's far too much unknown about all the system wide changes to CC, as well as new glyphs and subtleties of these abilities, on top of how much they'll change throughout beta. I wouldn't worry about it too much right now when we've got very very little information.

[Inval1d]

This seems to be the general consensus of whiners on MMO-Champ at the moment.

1. See game is not even in beta
2. Pick random feature and act like it's final and you know everything about everything
3. Start arguing your worries as fact.
4. ????
5. Profit

Seriously, stop making assumptions and saying something is bad when there is no final or decisive information on it or without even having tested it before (which you can't yet).

[Libertarian]

See game is not even in beta

This is pretty much it. This game is not like others and we generally have real "alphas" and "betas". Not many remember but going from Wotlk to Cata we still had 61 pt talents and midway during the friends and family alphas, they changed it completely to 31 pts. There is still a lot of time to change things.

I wouldn't be surprised if they made a "pet tier" and moved with or without you to that.

[Deleted]

This seems to be the general consensus of whiners on MMO-Champ at the moment.
Seriously, stop making assumptions and saying something is bad when there is no final or decisive information on it or without even having tested it before (which you can't yet).

Yeah we should never give feedback to the information they've made public.
Wait, why not?

[taishar68]

Yeah we should never give feedback to the information they've made public.
Wait, why not?

Nothing wrong with feedback, but it does seem premature to worry about things you haven't used yet. To the point though, I think a lot of people just get frustrated with the unceasing quantity of complaint threads...after a while, that negativity and cynicism gets old.

Now I'll get the rebuttals of "if you don't like them, don't read them", and that's a fair point, but perhaps we could start posting threads that are excited or at least curious about the changes, but then, good news doesn't sell newspapers, so w/e.

[Thursley]

I think snipe will probably mostly stay as it is; it seems to be a pretty solid idea they want to try (limit mobility for damage) and I don't see an issue that would prevent them from keeping it. With or Without You will definitely cause problems with other talents/abilities and also has the potential to be really crazy for AOE damage in PVE (assuming they balance it so it's around a neutral gain for single target and don't specifically exclude AOE attacks from the buff), but it's pretty high concept and something a lot of people have wanted for a long time so I expect they'll work hard to find a way to balance it and make it fit.

On the other hand, Bola Shot is low concept, doesn't do anything interesting, and just in general seems uninspired, even if they avoid the drawbacks of delayed AOE damage. To me it reads as something that was thrown into the talent tree for Blizzcon so they could show a full list of level 100 talents, rather than something they really like and want to make work when the expansion goes live. The devs have been talking for a while now about changes being made since Blizzcon, and I'd be surprised if Bola Shot wasn't one of them.

Basically, we're still not in beta and it's been a long time since the only information we've seen was presented. I'd reserve judgment until we see the next iteration of talents. There will still be plenty of time for feedback.

[Deleted]

The lvl 100 talents are like christmas compared to the usual crap we get fobbed off with

[Inval1d]

Nothing wrong with feedback, but it does seem premature to worry about things you haven't used yet. To the point though, I think a lot of people just get frustrated with the unceasing quantity of complaint threads...after a while, that negativity and cynicism gets old.

Now I'll get the rebuttals of "if you don't like them, don't read them", and that's a fair point, but perhaps we could start posting threads that are excited or at least curious about the changes, but then, good news doesn't sell newspapers, so w/e.

There's absolutely 0 merit to "feedback" that is entirely based on assumptions, because frankly we know nothing about the talents other than the current tooltip and the fact that it is most likely still very much open to change.

Saying something is broken or useless in any given scenario with literally 0 testing beforehand is not valid "feedback" in my opinion.

[The Kao]

And you know, if the game really comes out with all options being worse than what you'd have without them you could still opt not to choose a talent from this tier, problem solved. But something - I don't know what or where it's coming from - tells me that such a thing won't happen. Have a little faith.

[apepi]

You could you know..not spec into the talents...

[Captain Midnight]

With or Without You simply gives MM and Surv the choice not to use a pet. It doesn't force you to go without a pet but if your pet isn't there you get a nice damage boost.

[jason1975]

1. bola shot - the AoE can be exploited to break CC. If you trap the healer and use bola shot on the dps, he has 1 sec to move in 5y range of the healer to break him free. Or he can just stay on top of the healer and you can't use your focus dump.

2. snipe - you lose cobra/steady, can't move while casting, no way to use this in PVP ever

3. lone wolf - you lose too much utility by having no pet - cc, freedom, crit immunity, chasing rogues, healers

so it seems that if you want to PVP as MM or Survival, you can't take any of the 3 top level talents for pvp, because all of them make you worse.

I think they must change something - hopefully remove snipe altogether or make bola not affect CCed targets

Did you read the Dev blog about CC in WoD? This is all getting changed so discussion of it is meaningless right now.

[Tehterokkar]

With or Without You simply gives MM and Surv the choice not to use a pet. It doesn't force you to go without a pet but if your pet isn't there you get a nice damage boost.

In PvE single target fights the talent will be a DPS loss for SV/MM. But in multi-target, since your pet can't AoE, it wins clearly. And Bola shot will be our 2-3 target cleave. So far this is how I interpret the new talents:

Bola shot: Cleave
Snipe: Advanced rotation for best single target DPS
WOWY: Best AoE choice and also good for fights where pet is very derpy

WOWY for BM seems like using Steroids on your pet. Also changes Mastery's value very heavily as the other 2 options aren't exactly scaling with Mastery. You also get Thunderstomp which should be an AoE DPS increase.

[PuppetShowJustice]

I wouldn't be suprised to see a glyph for Bola which makes it not break CC.

I can't think of a talent that has a glyph associated with it.

[Rucati]

1. bola shot - the AoE can be exploited to break CC. If you trap the healer and use bola shot on the dps, he has 1 sec to move in 5y range of the healer to break him free. Or he can just stay on top of the healer and you can't use your focus dump.

2. snipe - you lose cobra/steady, can't move while casting, no way to use this in PVP ever

3. lone wolf - you lose too much utility by having no pet - cc, freedom, crit immunity, chasing rogues, healers

so it seems that if you want to PVP as MM or Survival, you can't take any of the 3 top level talents for pvp, because all of them make you worse.

I think they must change something - hopefully remove snipe altogether or make bola not affect CCed targets

1. You could say the same thing about Living Bomb for Mages, which is a skill that they all use even though it breaks CC if they stand next to someone. Wouldn't worry about it much.

2. You don't know yet, it depends entirely on how PvP is at level 100 which we won't know until we get there. With all the other changes, it's entirely possible you'll be able to stand still and cast. Remember back in BC how you had to do that? Worked then. Could be similar in WoD.

3. It's entirely possible that you'll gain the skills that your pet had. Don't know yet. Warlocks gain it when they sac their pet, so it'd be logical if the same happened for Hunters.

So, there, all 3 talents could be perfectly viable for PvP. You have literally no idea at all, and are just looking everywhere for something to bitch about. Wait until the beta starts so we can all see what happens before complaining about things, kk?

[Conscious]

This seems to be the general consensus of whiners on MMO-Champ at the moment.

1. See game is not even in beta
2. Pick random feature and act like it's final and you know everything about everything
3. Start arguing your worries as fact.
4. ????
5. Profit

Seriously, stop making assumptions and saying something is bad when there is no final or decisive information on it or without even having tested it before (which you can't yet).

Implying they won't ever go live like this.

You've far too much faith in Blizzard. People speculate like this for a reason - because Blizzard has done some really stupid shit.

[PuppetShowJustice]

In fairness the last time we saw the DK talents they were changed from what was initially in the Wowhead WoD talent calculator. Things are actively being refined. Unfortunately the guy playing the Hunter at the press event never bothered to look at his talents on camera so for all we know the Hunter talents we're discussing have already been replaced.

I'm not getting nervous until I can see live beta tooltips. But I agree that they can potentially screw up big time here. And personally I think Snipe is a train wreck of a talent.

[c000]

This seems to be the general consensus of whiners on MMO-Champ at the moment.

1. See game is not even in beta
2. Pick random feature and act like it's final and you know everything about everything
3. Start arguing your worries as fact.
4. ????
5. Profit

Seriously, stop making assumptions and saying something is bad when there is no final or decisive information on it or without even having tested it before (which you can't yet).

and yet the main point of a forum is to... wait for it... discuss various topics!

and unfortunately some things are better in the conception phase compared to release.

for example:

these were from blizzcon 2011. i don't know why they decided not to use any of these... along with Transmorph Trap – Place a nature trap laced with a special toxin that will transmorph the next enemy into a beast reducing their movement speed by 60% and causing them to be unable to use any of their normal abilities.

Frozen Arrows – Your arrows and ammunition are chilled with frost, causing your Auto Shot to have a 30% chance to reduce the targets movement speed by 30% for 10 sec.

Arcane Arrows – Your arrows and ammunition are infused with arcane magic, causing your Auto Shot to have a 50% chance to restore 5 Focus when it deals damage.

Venom Tipped Arrows – Your arrows and ammunition are mixed with serpent venom, causing a stacking poison damage over time effect on the target dealing Nature damage. Stacks up to 5 times.


any of those would have been better than what the 'final result' ended up being.