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  1. #61
    How will I buy my tier 9-12 sets now?

  2. #62
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zell the Malefic View Post
    Man, enough with the “you’re not realizing” or “you seem to have missed” nonsense.

    It’s impressing nobody.

    I realise exactly what you’re talking about, I know what the design intent is for the matters we’re discussing, and flatly disagree with some of your conclusions based on my earlier commentary. This isn’t because I don’t understand you, it’s because I have a different opinion. If you continue refusing to read what I’m actually typing and mindlessly assuming I’m only disputing these points because I don’t get it, I’ll simply stop responding. Your approach is arrogant, patronizing and tiresome. Funnily enough, it might be why you like Hazzikostas so much.

    Let’s have another go, shall we?
    I don't know where your irritation is coming from, i'm certainly not trying to antagonize you. Look, based on your statements I have no other course but to assume that you're missing something, because you're basing your very broad claims on simly erroneous assumptions. It's not about opinions, it's about facts. If you consider anyone that actually seems to know something that you don't as arrogant or patronizing, well no wonder that you don't like the dev of a game then *shrug*
    I'll try to be more precise now.



    Go back and read my original post again. I insinuated, very clearly, that five-man content has been almost entirely moved away from in this expansion because of the extreme devaluation of valor. Worrying that further devaluation of that currency might exasperate this problem is perfectly logical, and I’ve no idea why you can’t see this. You’re arguing that the new gearing/itemization paradigm will solve this, but we don’t know enough about it yet to make that assessment. Historically speaking, there have been such dramatic jumps in item level by tier, everything before it has been made redundant from a gearing perspective.

    The part you are not getting is that it doesn’t have to be this way. It wasn’t in WotLK because you could still gear up via running old dungeons, with other incentives such as the weekly raid quest.
    The part you don't seem to be getting is that they are perfectly aware of this and have stated so multiple times. Valor points aren't being removed to leave a void behind, nor do they plan to simply leave 6.0 dungeons behind and introduce no new content or keep 6.0 relevant (or both). This has been stated multiple times in several interviews, i'm not going to take half an hour out of my time to link them all because frankly, if you really consider yourself informed you would have read them/watched them.

    The approach to gearing is a completely new one in 6.0 and going forward, and is INCREDIBLY more open to casuals while giving raiders more options at the same time as well. You can keep ignoring their intentions and plans and insist on viewing the removal of Valor points only in the context of MoP tier shifts, but then you will simply be - missing something. Namely, the context of the WoD itemization system and how drops work and where you get them.

    No, I realise just fine. What you don’t seem to realise is that I’m taking a more wholistic view of valor, something that should have been evident to you seeing as my last post discussed currency gearing in Wrath of the Lich King.



    I’m consistently realizing everything you’re saying, thanks.

    “Many more avenues to get gear of valor level” are going to exist? Do we know this? Well, no. No, we don’t. Would you mind citing the sources where Hazzikostas has implicitly stated the following:

    Heroic dungeons will drop equal or higher item level than LFR.

    All we know is that challenge modes will drop these items, and that comes under the daily quest. We don’t know how good the garrison items are going to be, we don’t know where scenarios are going to fit in, and we’ve absolutely no idea what’s going to happen after the first tier. Also, don’t forget, that valor wasn’t the only way to get upgrades in 5.0 and 5.2; not only were the usual BoE’s dropping in raids, professions were a steady source of said upgrades to the point where the unlocking of the Isle of Thunder allowed blacksmiths to develop old plans that became (IIRC) 502’s. You’re right, reputation gating and spamming LFR was the only way to get at the valor items from the Shado-pan Assault but for some inexplicable reason you’re assuming that I was perfectly okay with that.

    I wasn’t.

    Just as I wasn’t okay with the gating (and double-gating) of the launch content that was stacked behind reputation grinds as well.
    Your holistic view of Valor points directly contradicts your call for more accessible gear for casuals and non-raiders, however, and totally ignores what we KNOW about WoD so far.

    Let's look at it in detail:

    Right now in 5.4, you can gain LFR level epics exclusively through: LFR. You can spend Valor points on 522 items, and gain 516 items from heroic scenarios if you're lucky. That's it. Before that, in 5.0 for example, you had Valor rewards and LFR and that's it. Nothing else.
    If you are a non-raider, you have the option of running dungeons and scenarios over and over again along with LFR to cap, gaining virtually nothing from this content except for LFR besides points. Dungeon gear is outdated, scenario gear is outdated for the most part.

    Let'S look at the planned 6.0 design (which we know based on multiple statements...if you refuse to look it up/believe it, wait for the infodump later this week/next week I guess):

    Normal/Scenarios -> LFR / Heroic dungeons/ Heroic Scenarios / Garrisons / Challenge Mode daily / presumably Reputation rewards: these ALL award epic gear (look it up, they've been quoted to state this). Whether you want to raid or not, all of this content gives you comparable rewards in terms of ilvl. If you can't do Challenge Modes or Heroic Dungeons, there's LFR, Garrisons and Scenarios that are easier. You won't get left behind simply because you can't run the harder group content. You won't get raid level gear, but you hardly got that ever anyway, apart from world bosses - which will also be introduced bit by bit.

    I'm not going to repeat the itemization changes, the info is all out there, and the fact remains that these changes will pretty much change the way we look at obtaining upgrades. It will be much more dynamic and with more possibilities from nearly every source save the highest level of raiding.

    As for cosmetic/crafting/pet and mount rewards: we never got mounts from Valor to my knowledge, nor pets. Would feel mightily underwhelming imo, but that's a matter of taste. As for crafting and cosmetic rewards, these are available through a plethora of other means and actually more engaging activities than just "i need x amount of valor from this repeatable content that i will now grind to get this".

    No, I didn’t miss any of those points.

    Can you cite me the sources where anyone states that heroics and garrisons give LFR level items? Because:



    That’s not my recollection of what was said. Again, I’d appreciate the sources for this.



    We know nothing about how they intend to keep 6.0 dungeon content relevant, and we don’t know that they’re going to be releasing more dungeon content as the expansion goes on.

    I’m sorry, but we know neither of those things.
    This info was and is still all out from countless interviews during Blizzcon and the in the time since. Hazzikostas alone has stated these intentions, plans and the design philosophy behind WoD multiple times. Again, it's fine if you cba to go read them, but don't refuse to view changes in their context then.

    They've repeatedly stated that YES, dungeon content WILL be kept relevant, and there WILL be new group content in newer tiers. If you choose not to believe that, that's your business. The entire itemization and progress system revolves around this being the case.

    You grinded LFR to gear up for raiding in 5.2, or you did tier 14 content. In short, you raided – there were no other catch up mechanics that were plentiful enough to get you geared. I think heroic scenarios came in as part of 5.3 and then the Timeless Isle came in as part of 5.4, but they arrived because Blizzard knew what a colossal mess they’d made by forcing people who didn’t want to raid to grind the ghetto in order to move their character on. You’re making a bold assumption (fair play to you) that they’ve learned from this.

    I’m electing to wait and see.
    I'm not assuming, i'm simply repeating what they've stated. The assumptions are being made by you, namely that you're basing your entire opinion on viewing certain proposed changes for WoD in the context of the MoP system. This simply doesn't work, and ofc it would worry you in that context.

    The Timeless Isle and scenarios did not arrive because of them "making a mess", they were planned all along.

    You’re showing your bias here.

    “Kill quest mobs in 1.1 seconds”. What? You may not like this, but Blizzard views gear as a reward. So do many players. You’re viewing it as a means to an end, and that just isn’t its sole purpose anymore which means your argument here is doing this entire debate a complete disservice.
    Ofc gear is a reward. But the fact of the matter here is that VALOR GEAR has always been more or less tied to the relative ilvl of new raid tiers, NOT the rest of the game world. So if you don't raid, let's say you gear in complete 528 gear from SoO LFR, maybe some Celestial drops too. You'll run around in 530 - vs content in the world that is tuned to an ilvl of roughly 450. You're basically invincible.

    This kind of power progression isn't going away. Removing Valor rewards is not removing your access to relative power increases without raiding. In fact, you're gaining far more options to progress your character through gear simply based on RNG factors alone.

    Well, to you. I get this argument, I do, I’m just not sure I agree. My experience is that it causes more frustration than it does happiness, and it’s not a complaint you ever hear the PvP community make. Your mileage may vary.



    I realise what you’re saying just fine. Again.

    Valor can give players a buttload of choice if they were implemented more intelligently. They’ve consistently been on the cusp of making it work, but never quite getting there because of confused design decisions and the “EVERYONE MUST RAID” mantra. We can only hope that’s going to go away. Alas, I think you’re grossly over-selling what the new system is going to do and I think that because of history. Blizzard wants people to do LFR and it wants people to raid, purely so that justification can be made to keep developing raid content that, actually, most players aren’t bothered about. Hazzikostas himself has stated that he’s been a raider since day one, but doesn’t seem to realise that not everyone is. At BlizzCon, he said that he’d heard the desire for more dungeons and then announced the smallest number to ever ship with an expansion. Brilliant.

    Like I say, we don’t know how they’re going to set up what you’re talking about against the rest of the expansion. We’ve no idea. We’re hoping it’ll work as you imply, but we simply don’t know.



    No, I’m not mistaken. I’m 100% objectively correct. Read what you’ve quoted again. I said “currently” and not “in WoD”. Hopefully WoD will see some changes, but the bottom line is that I just don’t believe what Blizzard tells me anymore without evidence of it.



    Listen to him. Not only does he talk to interviewers like they’re children, he’s spent the last two BlizzCons he’s been a part of telling players that they don’t really feel what they feel, and that he (and the team) know better.

    He’s a cock.
    "The smallest number to ever ship with an expansion" but conveniently ignore: scenarios and heroic scenarios, challenge modes. All things that previous expansions did NOT have at release and aim at the exact same audience, with the possible exception of CMs.

    Look let's be honest here. In the end, you've not looked at all the info, and that info you do look at you choose to disbelieve. You're free to do so, but you can't pick and choose certain aspects of the gear system in WoD and choose to view them outside of their WoD context.

    At the rate you're going, the infodump will hit and you're going to sit here crossing your arms pouting, refusing to believe any of it will happen.

    And I'm glad certain people at Blizzard feel they know better than the community. Because frankly, they just do, whether that irritates you for some reason or not.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I'm okay with them being removed, but I do like the the point system as a supplement to drops so if you got unlucky with a particular slot, you could buy or upgrade a lower quality piece.

    I also liked being able to buy trade goods with JP as we could in Cata, or convert them to HP for pvp gear.

    I wonder what they are going to do with all the old gear and heirlooms that are currently purchased with JP.
    this! Old valor gear made sense to me!

    - - - Updated - - -

    i also like having stuff to do on my main! Raid 1/2 nights and then have more stuff to do with it than just go do the same with alts...

  4. #64
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elderamy View Post
    this! Old valor gear made sense to me!

    - - - Updated - - -

    i also like having stuff to do on my main! Raid 1/2 nights and then have more stuff to do with it than just go do the same with alts...
    You're in luck then, since pretty much every activity outside of raiding awards gear in WoD.

  5. #65
    Brewmaster Breccia's Avatar
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    As long as old JP/VP gear was available for purchase in some way, for transmog or lower-level players, I guess I can live with it. I've done nothing with my valor since 5.4 but upgrades, and those are going away.

  6. #66
    Scarab Lord Gimlix's Avatar
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    Alll the thing i care about is, do we get them converted into Feats of Strength's these achievements?
    » Active MMO-Champion visitor since: 12-12-2012 «
    » Predict Warlords of Draenor to sell 3 Million copies at first day «
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    no king rules forever, but WoW is a stubborn bastard.

  7. #67
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Alll the thing i care about is, do we get them converted into Feats of Strength's these achievements?
    Course, we got the old badges as FoS, so why wouldn't we.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    So what do I log in for? Friday night raid and thats it.
    Is that so bad? If all you want to do is raid then why should you be forced to supplement your valor acquisition rate with a bunch of other crap that you didn't particular care for? I know that raiding is the fastest way to acquire valor, but suppose you're extending lockouts to work on progression. Now you have to jump through hoops to valor cap on top of that. While I don't mind so much because I actually prefer five mans and dailies over raiding, I don't think that's very fun for the average raider.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  9. #69
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Is that so bad? If all you want to do is raid then why should you be forced to supplement your valor acquisition rate with a bunch of other crap that you didn't particular care for? I know that raiding is the fastest way to acquire valor, but suppose you're extending lockouts to work on progression. Now you have to jump through hoops to valor cap on top of that. While I don't mind so much because I actually prefer five mans and dailies over raiding, I don't think that's very fun for the average raider.
    I don't think people realize how different gear will be in WoD right now. You'll be running content a lot MORE than now, especially if you're a raider, to get better rolls on your items. There will almost always be a reason to run a dungeon again to get a more optimal version of one slot or another.

  10. #70
    Scarab Lord Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Course, we got the old badges as FoS, so why wouldn't we.
    Good GOOD!, Then i'm positive for removal.
    More FoS for me
    » Active MMO-Champion visitor since: 12-12-2012 «
    » Predict Warlords of Draenor to sell 3 Million copies at first day «
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    no king rules forever, but WoW is a stubborn bastard.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I don't think people realize how different gear will be in WoD right now. You'll be running content a lot MORE than now, especially if you're a raider, to get better rolls on your items. There will almost always be a reason to run a dungeon again to get a more optimal version of one slot or another.
    That sounds fun, but typically when players are looking to upgrade a single slot they target specific dungeons. That to me is more fun than just blindly running crap until your VP meter is maxed out for the week. I would rather run one or two dungeons every day with the anticipation that this next run will drop the item I want than what I would currently do, which is to mindless chain content until the meter is full.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  12. #72
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    That sounds fun, but typically when players are looking to upgrade a single slot they target specific dungeons. That to me is more fun than just blindly running crap until your VP meter is maxed out for the week. I would rather run one or two dungeons every day with the anticipation that this next run will drop the item I want than what I would currently do, which is to mindless chain content until the meter is full.
    Which is exactly where WoD is headed.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I'm okay with them being removed, but I do like the the point system as a supplement to drops so if you got unlucky with a particular slot, you could buy or upgrade a lower quality piece.

    I also liked being able to buy trade goods with JP as we could in Cata, or convert them to HP for pvp gear.

    I wonder what they are going to do with all the old gear and heirlooms that are currently purchased with JP.

    Anyone else getting the bad feeling Blizzard may move them to the wow store?

  14. #74
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saucywench View Post
    Anyone else getting the bad feeling Blizzard may move them to the wow store?
    Nope, it's just you. Must suck :x

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Drops? Seems this time around they plan to release/update scenarios and dungeons to keep their value relative to new raid tiers. So plenty of incentive.



    Probably change them to gold or some coins that drop somewhere Timeless Isle style.
    Or they stay as old currency? Dungeons could still give VP or JP in WoD, with the sole purpose of buying heirlooms

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray82 View Post
    Sounds great. Specialy the part for bonus rolls. If they fix those duplicate rolls that would be great.
    I do wonder tho, how will we buy old PvP sets and all the other stuff that JP were used for.
    I really do not see duplicate drops/bonus rolls are an issue. If they removed that then after a couple of weeks you would have everything you wanted/needed from a raid. Now if you are talking bonus roll giving you the exact same thing you just won off that boss then yeah I think that needs some work. But week after week getting the same roll item is fine. We have currently seen the exact same two items from the first four bosses in SoO 10H three weeks in a row. As frustrating as it may be, if we were guaranteed to get the different items each week it would be a bit anticlimactic.

  17. #77
    Scarab Lord Conscious's Avatar
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    People need to lose the notion that Blizzard is going to scale back the amount of time it takes to do these things. The grind isn't going to be currency-centric anymore, it's going to be drop-centric.

    You're still going to grind the shit out of dungeons. Only your gear is going to be attached to a drop rate, and one that I'm fairly certain will have a direct correlation to the time it would've taken you to farm the items through currency.
    Looking to refund your Warlords of Draenor purchase? Contact Support chat directly - here.

  18. #78
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Like I said in another thread one exactly the same article and subject yesterday - what I read is that they want to "simplify" the system. JP, VP. Conquest, honor and extra currencies for bonus rolls in each raid. Add elder charms and timeless coins if you so want and I can see that happening.

    Anyways that is how I read it before I literally can find the words "we will remove JP AND VP"
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Conscious View Post
    People need to lose the notion that Blizzard is going to scale back the amount of time it takes to do these things. The grind isn't going to be currency-centric anymore, it's going to be drop-centric.

    You're still going to grind the shit out of dungeons. Only your gear is going to be attached to a drop rate, and one that I'm fairly certain will have a direct correlation to the time it would've taken you to farm the items through currency.
    Except that it will be designed around a mean time via currency, which will let the lucky end of the curve be finished very quickly and the unlucky end spending far more time getting what they wanted, rather than everyone having to do roughly the same number of dungeons or whatever to get the points needed.

    The last thing this game needs is even more RNG based progression and "bonus rolls" are in no way a substitute for bad luck - not even if they are made semi-intelligent (which they didn't promise, just spouted vague promises about)

  20. #80
    Brewmaster Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saucywench View Post
    Anyone else getting the bad feeling Blizzard may move them to the wow store?
    ...well I do now! Thanks a lot

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