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  1. #101
    I think this is stupid. Valor Point gear was never that good and should only be seen as a tool to help you perform better in raids until you get something from there. It was a way to offset bad luck streaks which can easily last months. Removing it means that we have to rely entirely on RNG for progressing our characters. Hopefully if they do end up removing it they significantly improve the loot system.

  2. #102
    Reserve judgement until the details are fully fleshed out or we actually have access to the game on release. The same shit applies to anything that's announced. People jumping to personal conclusions based on bias are idiots.

  3. #103
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I don't know where your irritation is coming from, i'm certainly not trying to antagonize you. Look, based on your statements I have no other course but to assume that you're missing something, because you're basing your very broad claims on simly erroneous assumptions.
    You are trying to antagonize me, you know you are, but are now feigning innocence to try and come off as the better person.

    You then, again, decide to say my assumptions are erroneous when you’re the only person making assumptions. I’m simply sticking to what we know – you can either accept that, or you can’t.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    It's not about opinions, it's about facts. If you consider anyone that actually seems to know something that you don't as arrogant or patronizing, well no wonder that you don't like the dev of a game then *shrug*
    I'll try to be more precise now.
    You have yet to prove you know anything that I don’t. That’s why you’re arrogant and patronizing, because you’re implying you know more about the subject than I do but have yet to prove this to be so. Let’s look at a few examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    The part you don't seem to be getting is that they are perfectly aware of this and have stated so multiple times. Valor points aren't being removed to leave a void behind, nor do they plan to simply leave 6.0 dungeons behind and introduce no new content or keep 6.0 relevant (or both). This has been stated multiple times in several interviews, i'm not going to take half an hour out of my time to link them all because frankly, if you really consider yourself informed you would have read them/watched them.
    See, this is an example of antagonism. You know I dislike you starting every sentence or paragraph with “you don’t seem to be getting this”, so what do you do? Start your paragraphs with “you don’t seem to be getting this”. But you’re not trying to upset anyone. I think “lolz” fits in just fine, don’t you?

    But let’s go with what you’ve stated here.

    You are assuming that what they’ve stated is going to happen will, in fact, happen.

    Would you like me to recount all of the times when Blizzard have said something and then not delivered? I can if you like. But you’d have to be very, very naïve to think they’re suddenly going to keep every promise. What YOU don’t get is that I know, full well, what’s been stated – I’m simply choosing to wait and see if they deliver, given their history. “It’s this or a raid tier” has become a bit of a joke around the WoW community recently, but I fully expect it to continue into Warlords of Draenor. The reason I’m asking you to quote sources isn’t because I’ve not read what you’ve read, it’s because you seem to have interpreted it differently. And because you flatly refuse to link anything that contradicts what I’ve said (nope, not a single time) then I can only assume that’s where this all falls down.

    You’re making assumptions off of information, but passing it off as factual, when I’m not. There’s no “misunderstanding”, merely a bit more gullibility on your part.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    The approach to gearing is a completely new one in 6.0 and going forward, and is INCREDIBLY more open to casuals while giving raiders more options at the same time as well. You can keep ignoring their intentions and plans and insist on viewing the removal of Valor points only in the context of MoP tier shifts, but then you will simply be - missing something. Namely, the context of the WoD itemization system and how drops work and where you get them.
    Ah, you’ve been rumbled so it’s words in the mouth time. I’ve never once said that the removal of valor points should only be viewed in the context of MoP, I’ve only said I’m worried that they will be. Once again, the only person missing something here is actually yourself because you’re making bland assumptions on what I’m saying rather than reading what I’m choosing to post. You are saying that 6.0 gearing will be far more open to casuals, but you have no idea whether or not that’s true. Not. A. Clue. You know what? Neither do I. I know exactly where drops come from, but what we don’t know is how strong they’re going to be.

    Let’s make this really, really simple so that you can’t misconstrue me again. Let’s say for argument’s sake this is how it’ll shake out (fictitious numbers):

    Normal dungeon: item level 100.
    Heroic scenarios: item level 110.
    Heroic dungeon: item level 120.
    Challenge mode/LFR: item level 130
    Normal mode: item level 140.
    Heroic mode: item level 150.
    Mythic mode: item level 160.

    I’d be shocked if garrison items were as good as LFR, but they’ll certainly be no better. At this point, you don’t know if this is correct or not; neither do I. You’re stating certain things as fact, but have yet to cite a source confirming that so I’ll assume there isn’t one. If you’re talking about the gearing path Hazzikostas recently mentioned (heroic dungeons take you to normal raids), that says nothing about item level and is more likely to be a reference to the current flex mode being in the next expansion from the start. If you want to disagree, I want a source.

    Now, this is where you and I are dovetailing (except I understand that, and you don’t).

    We don’t know what’s going to happen with these scenarios, dungeons, challenge modes and garrisons as the expansion moves on. As soon as someone has geared through LFR, their personal development on that character may have stopped because all content before it ceases to become a path to gearing, other than the pure RNG hope for tertiary stats (tertiary stats you actually want) or a gem slot. When the next tier of content is released, let’s say at item level 170 for its LFR version and rising 10 points per mode, then we have to start making assumptions on how that’s going to be handled.

    1) Do we know that there will be more dungeons? No. All Hazzikostas said at BlizzCon was that they’d “try to do more of that”. Key word: try. If you think otherwise, source.
    2) Do we know what item level these dungeons will be? No.
    3) Do we know that there will be more scenarios? No. Next to no commentary has been made on them, but I’d imagine it’s likely we’ll see them. They’re cheap and easy.
    4) Do we know what item level these scenarios will be? No.
    5) Do we know if garrison items will be updated? No. Very little has been said on gear gathering from your garrison followers.
    6) Do we know what item level garrison gear would be? No.

    In short, unless you can cite me sources for each question where I’m wrong, all you’re doing is speculating, passing it off as fact, and telling me I don’t get it.

    So we’re left with a player who could potentially start the expansion having a ball, getting his gear from all sorts of sources and then blasting his way through LFR to a shiny weapon and his four-piece. This is great! At this point, his item level is going to be at an average of around 130 and he might be content farming the piss out of what he’s already done in order to get more gems or tertiary stats. History, of course, says that he won’t because RNG gearing causes more frustration than enjoyment under this auspice. His next choice, if he wants his character to develop, is to raid… And that’s it. He’s not going to gain item level from anywhere else because there are no more valor items or upgrades, but he may pick up a few crafted pieces or BoE’s from the auction house.

    He’s done.

    Next tier, we know we’ll get a raid tier because that’s what Hazzikostas wants to develop. We also know… Well, nothing. We don’t know if we’ll get more dungeons, because all they’ve said to my knowledge is that they’ll “try” to do them. It’s likely we’ll get scenarios, for reasons already stated, but their gear delivery system is pretty lousy in the main; triple-random rewarding doesn’t sound that fabulous to me (first, do I get something? Second, can I use it? Third, does it have the tertiary I want?). In neither case do we know what item level these dungeons or scenarios will deliver, but I’d wager they’ll be less than LFR assuming dungeons would have challenge modes that reward LFR items. Will garrison gear be upgraded? Dunno.

    And with no valor points, players will have no way of protecting against having to raid in order to develop beyond LFR gearing… Exactly as now.

    So you see, there’s no “misunderstanding”. You’re just choosing to swallow what you’re being told and making blind assumptions on what that all means, and I’m not.

    Again, if you want to disagree, I’ll ignore what you say without a valid and specific source.

    Prove me wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Let'S look at the planned 6.0 design (which we know based on multiple statements...if you refuse to look it up/believe it, wait for the infodump later this week/next week I guess):

    Normal/Scenarios -> LFR / Heroic dungeons/ Heroic Scenarios / Garrisons / Challenge Mode daily / presumably Reputation rewards: these ALL award epic gear (look it up, they've been quoted to state this). Whether you want to raid or not, all of this content gives you comparable rewards in terms of ilvl. If you can't do Challenge Modes or Heroic Dungeons, there's LFR, Garrisons and Scenarios that are easier. You won't get left behind simply because you can't run the harder group content. You won't get raid level gear, but you hardly got that ever anyway, apart from world bosses - which will also be introduced bit by bit.
    I like your use of the word “know”. Nothing you’ve stated outside the obvious is actually “known”, but I do like your assertions to the contrary.

    Anyway, I’d like some sources:

    1) You say all of those activities reward epic gear, but I’d like to know their item levels. This should be easy, you’re saying you “know”.
    2) You say all of that content gives comparable rewards in terms of item level, but not what they’re comparable to; each other? This should be easy, you’re saying you “know”.
    3) You say nobody will be left behind, but without knowing item levels that’s a guess. This should be easy, you’re saying you “know”.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    As for cosmetic/crafting/pet and mount rewards: we never got mounts from Valor to my knowledge, nor pets. Would feel mightily underwhelming imo, but that's a matter of taste. As for crafting and cosmetic rewards, these are available through a plethora of other means and actually more engaging activities than just "i need x amount of valor from this repeatable content that i will now grind to get this".
    Just a couple of points here, actually. I think cosmetic things such as pets and mounts, and particularly transmogrifiable items, would be very cool as rewards for playing the game how you like and using a currency. It’s not happened so extensively yet, but as I clearly stated earlier, that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen. As for “I need x amount of valor”, this isn’t traditionally how people have used the system; they’ve usually gotten what they want, then turned in the excess – I see no reason why that wouldn’t change.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Hazzikostas alone has stated these intentions, plans and the design philosophy behind WoD multiple times. Again, it's fine if you cba to go read them, but don't refuse to view changes in their context then.
    Lolz.

    Since when did “intentions, plans and design philosophy” become facts? That’s what you’re presenting them as.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    They've repeatedly stated that YES, dungeon content WILL be kept relevant, and there WILL be new group content in newer tiers.
    Source, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I'm not assuming, i'm simply repeating what they've stated. The assumptions are being made by you, namely that you're basing your entire opinion on viewing certain proposed changes for WoD in the context of the MoP system. This simply doesn't work, and ofc it would worry you in that context.
    No, you’re assuming. Sorry. You’re assuming they’re going to do what they’ve said they will (because Blizzard ALWAYS do what they promise…) and then passed off your interpretation of statements as the only interpretation. Again, to prove me wrong, you’re going to have to cite your sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    The Timeless Isle and scenarios did not arrive because of them "making a mess", they were planned all along.
    An assertion based on…?

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Ofc gear is a reward. But the fact of the matter here is that VALOR GEAR has always been more or less tied to the relative ilvl of new raid tiers, NOT the rest of the game world. So if you don't raid, let's say you gear in complete 528 gear from SoO LFR, maybe some Celestial drops too. You'll run around in 530 - vs content in the world that is tuned to an ilvl of roughly 450. You're basically invincible.
    That wasn’t the case on the Isle of Thunder, when running around in 496 gear would still see you reasonably challenged; particularly when fighting rares or doing the solo-scenarios. That’s the type of development I’d like to see, while I also see nothing wrong with quickly killing mobs in the pre-tier world when you’re trying to do other things like exploration, rare hunting, professions, achievement chasing etc.

    Basically, I’m not an elitist who thinks only raiders should have nice gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    "The smallest number to ever ship with an expansion" but conveniently ignore: scenarios and heroic scenarios, challenge modes. All things that previous expansions did NOT have at release and aim at the exact same audience, with the possible exception of CMs.
    There you go again. I didn’t “conveniently ignore” anything. Blizzard have admitted that scenarios and challenge modes didn’t scratch many itches, and they’re not demanding to make; they use existing art and are simply populated with mobs (scenarios) or tuned up (challenge modes). His point at BlizzCon was very clear; he had heard the community say they wanted more dungeons, but delivered less. Don’t try and obfuscate the point by dragging it elsewhere. It doesn’t wash.

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Look let's be honest here. In the end, you've not looked at all the info, and that info you do look at you choose to disbelieve. You're free to do so, but you can't pick and choose certain aspects of the gear system in WoD and choose to view them outside of their WoD context.
    Let’s be honest, you’ve not managed to prove a single assertion you’ve made yet and have either misunderstood or grossly misrepresented my concerns while behaving like a smug, know-it-all throughout.

    You and Hazzikostas would make great bedfellows.

    Your next post needs sources, or needs to be forgotten about.

    Your call.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewor View Post
    Reserve judgement until the details are fully fleshed out or we actually have access to the game on release. The same shit applies to anything that's announced. People jumping to personal conclusions based on bias are idiots.
    I couldn't have said it better myself.

  4. #104
    The Patient Amnaught's Avatar
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    I'd much rather see a combination of drops and points. Imagine this. No cap to the points, but after every boss, you get a point based on its' difficulty tier. Save up enough, and you can purchase one of three things: For this example, Heroic Dungeon points, spent to buy either a random item from a boss in a Normal Raid, a choice item from a random assortment of Heroic Dungeon drops, or any specific item that drops in any Normal Dungeon. That way, going back is less "I've been here 57 times I just want my item, hurry up tank." and more "I can run this three more times and get my item, but it might drop this time!"

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    "I've been here 57 times I just want my item, hurry up tank."
    Oh dear, that brings up a good point. I HATE players who drop group as soon as their item drops and leave the group stranded. (And it's not much better joining an instance half way through to replace them). VPs do have the nice side effect of inducing people to finish the instance.

  6. #106
    sounds more like the system is being changed rather than removed

  7. #107
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zell the Malefic View Post
    snip
    I'm not getting into this anymore. You're the one trying to turn it into a crap-flinging fest, not me. The info is all out there, carefully following the abundant number of interviews that are out there will give you confirmation on everything I said.

    The bottom line to ALL your arguments is this (and I pointed this out in my last post multiple times):

    You don't BELIEVE that these designs will happen the way they are intended.

    You are free to do so, but starting an ad hominem thread war over the fact that you choose to not believe anything Blizzard says, and you choose to not view anything in context doesn't change the fact that in light of what has been proposed so far, it all makes sense and sounds very much like what you originally stated you wanted, in your first post.

    I'm not claiming to know I'm claiming to know what their devs have stated.
    Excuse me but what else are you going to go by? You have a different source for discussions on WoD changes coming up than the devs of the game?

    Please feel free to wait for the blogs coming up which will likely confirm it all.

  8. #108
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    You are free to do so, but starting an ad hominem thread war over the fact that you choose to not believe anything Blizzard says, and you choose to not view anything in context doesn't change the fact that in light of what has been proposed so far, it all makes sense and sounds very much like what you originally stated you wanted, in your first post.
    Nice try.

    You're pulling out because I've asked you to prove a number of assertions you've made based on what we've read so far.

    You can't.

    You tried to dismiss someone whose opinion reasonably differed from yours, based on the same evidence, and are now trying to make it look otherwise because you've been called on it. This isn't about my choice to not "believe anything Blizzard says", it's about you stating as facts things we don't know (particularly the subject of item level) and then ignoring/misunderstanding simple questions on these subjects under the guise of knowing better.

    I'm not fooled. Nobody is.

  9. #109
    lol just because they replace "valor points" with "charms of fortune" doesn't mean the system will be any different. its just consolidation of currency which they do periodically.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    lol just because they replace "valor points" with "charms of fortune" doesn't mean the system will be any different. its just consolidation of currency which they do periodically.
    I agree it's not clear but there is stuff in the article that is consistent with their interpretation. The fact that they have already effectively got rid of VP gear this tier (and JPs have been worthless for most of MoP), makes me inclined to believe the headline. However, I'll wait for official confirmation.

  11. #111
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zell the Malefic View Post
    Nice try.

    You're pulling out because I've asked you to prove a number of assertions you've made based on what we've read so far.

    You can't.

    You tried to dismiss someone whose opinion reasonably differed from yours, based on the same evidence, and are now trying to make it look otherwise because you've been called on it. This isn't about my choice to not "believe anything Blizzard says", it's about you stating as facts things we don't know (particularly the subject of item level) and then ignoring/misunderstanding simple questions on these subjects under the guise of knowing better.

    I'm not fooled. Nobody is.
    I'm pulling out because I frankly have better things to do than compile links for you that you're too lazy to look up yourself or explain circumstances you're too ignorant to accept.

    It's not up to me to prove something that has been ANNOUNCED BY THE DEVELOPMENT TEAM, it's up to you to somehow prove that this will all magically not happen.

    You fail to apply a certain amount of common sense, as in item level. All the mentioned activities award epic gear. It is reasonable to assume that this ilvl will be above normal dungeon/scenario ilvl, and therefore in the ballpark of LFR drops and the likes. Anything else would automatically make one avenue of gearing superior to others. You fail to apply this form of logic to anything you argue.

    Again, don't take my word for it, you obviously don't want to. Wait on the blogs.

    You can argue all the day long that everything is subject to change, in that case, don't bother debating something that is obviously under development. Certain things only make sense under certain premises.
    Last edited by miffy23; 2014-02-27 at 01:23 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Force non raider to run LFR !
    Good Job.
    Heroic dungeons and challenge mode dungeon rewards will be awarding gear as good as or better than LFR. Why are you even in this thread?

  13. #113
    I actually like the way Valor is now. Upgrading makes it so you are almost always making your gear better.

    I really hope they don't remove upgrades from PvE gear.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    I actually like the way Valor is now. Upgrading makes it so you are almost always making your gear better.

    I really hope they don't remove upgrades from PvE gear.
    The issue is that it (like so much else) ends up becoming a requirement instead of a nice boost. You better cap your valor every week to make sure all your pieces are 2/2 and that you have extra available if a new piece drops otherwise you're a "baddie" and won't get into a raid team dreaming of getting to 3/14 HC before the end of the xpac.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Force non raider to run LFR !
    Good Job.
    Well it sounds like they're reviving heroic dungeons. If they follow through with that I think we'll all be better off.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  16. #116
    This sucks no end.

    After doing tons of runs on siege normal, I am still stuck with 4 items of flex gear and bonus rolls ALWAYS gives me something else in the loot table than what I want (or that fu**ing gold bag!)

    Bad luck protection my ar*e!

    Currency simply works better. The reason it works better is because I can actually choose my upgrade!

    Another roll of the dice doesn't work well when it gives you the same old crap from the bosses loot table (or worse the gold "up yours" bag)
    RNG is NOT fun, no matter what Ion says.
    Last edited by Briga; 2014-02-27 at 04:05 PM.

  17. #117
    I agree with them.

    VPs have become a tool solely for upgrading items. JPs are pretty much entirely useless. Neither serves any compelling gameplay purpose.

    The idea of several bonus rolls a week is sound and works in practice. For people playing catch up (LFR mainly), they've made it so loot has a greater chance to drop and given you as many rolls as you can farm in older content.

    My only worry is going to be a lack of things to do between raids. Maybe they'll fill the world with more end game content (Timeless Isle, etc). Maybe there'll be nothing. We'll see how it pans out.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Rioo View Post
    Getting rid of ilvl upgrades would be awesome. I don't mind valor being removed either. Feels like you no longer need it even if you're not raiding due to LFR and Flex.
    Well you can sort of tell they were phasing out points with SoO since the valor gear didn't get updated. I dunno if they did that because of timeless isle or what. But I haven't bought a valor piece in a while, I just upgrade ordos/normal/flex loot in that order. Haven't had a problem thus far since drops are plentiful with bonus rolls. Averaging a couple new items every week.

  19. #119
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I'm pulling out because I frankly have better things to do than compile links for you that you're too lazy to look up yourself or explain circumstances you're too ignorant to accept.
    "Lazy".

    "Ignorant".

    Nah, you're not trying to antagonize anyone at all. Not one jot. No, sir.

    You're not linking contradictory tweets/comments for one reason, and one reason only; they don't exist.

    See ya in a week.

  20. #120
    If you don't raid then what would anyone need JP/VP for anyway? And if you don't raid OR PvP then why play the game at all? To quest? To level? To farm gold? Pet Battles? None of which requires JP/VP/HP/CP gear. These currencies are being made redundant by the changes to how raid loot works. They are no longer necessary for raiding or anything outside of raiding.

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