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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuda View Post
    It also leads to the ilvl conundrum I mentioned above, with 4 raid difficulties on different lockouts, it's pretty difficult to determine where VP gear should fall, make it too low and anyone who raids will just be sitting on 3k the whole xpac (i.e. t14, despite being locked behind rep, it was only 489, whereas HoF and ToeS, which were launched a month after release dropped 496 gear, basically trivializing all VP stuff, even ignoring heroic mode). On the other hand, make it too high, and it trivializes loot from lower difficulties. (i.e. ToT, could get almost an entire set of 522 gear just by farming LFR for SPA rep, made the 502's you got from the *actual bosses* seem like glorified vendor trash.)
    VP gear should award normal mode gear (heroic mode in WoD). If they added some for SoO, it should be 553. VP gear being higher level than flex/LFR is not a bad thing, especially in the case of LFR. If you've raided the previous tier, you should never even get possible upgrades from a new tier's LFR. I doubt Blizzard would ever do that though, because LFR usage would plummet like a brick as soon as it ceases to drop semi-useful gear.
    VP gear being better than flex level is questionable, but VP gear is generally less optimized and has a limited amount of gear slots. Only ToT had large amounts of Valor gear, but most of it was terrible with excessive amounts of hit/expertise.

    The best implementation of Valor/Justice was during Dragon Soul. The best pieces per slot (weapons/trinkets/tier) came from raiding only, with the only downside being boss-shared loot being exceptionally rare (I only ever saw one Vial of Shadows drop). Valor offered a limited amount of gear of normal mode quality, with one piece being BoE.
    For a raiding character you might buy a few pieces before you'd be in all normal mode gear from raiding. After that you could buy Valor gear for off-specs, or buy the BoE piece for use on alts or for selling it on the AH.
    For alts the system was a god-send. You'd queue up for dungeons where you'd get Firelands-level gear, including weapons and trinkets. Along the way you'd acquire JP and VP, which you used to fill out remaining slots (JP) and for upgrades (VP).

  2. #122
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    The "VP as a carrot" thing doesn't really hold water IMO, there's been no VP gear for all of SoO and in ToT the gate was more about rep than VP.

    However this HAS resulted in me pretty much not running heroics/scenarios/etc anymore unless I felt like it.

    Back when I was raiding, the VP gear was generally no better than the gear from the previous tier so it had limited use. In fact the one time I really wanted to cap every week was in Cata when you could buy BoEs for VP and sell them...
    In the new system, each drop source has so many possible iterations through RNG that upgrades will be possible for far longer.

    Assuming for example that Warforged applies to Heroic dungeon loot (socket rolls on certain slots DO apply, tertiary stats anyway), you'll have at least 3 different RNG rolls that could affect the slot you're after, and getting one that sports all possible ones will take quite some time.

    On top of that, a warforged, socketed and optimal tertiary slot item of for example heroic dungeon quality will be much closer in quality to a raid quality item for that slot that is lacking any of the rolls. This will offer more opportunities to upgrade gear in the face of bad RNG in one area. And in my opinion, it's a lot more fun to actually get drops than to tick things off a list at a vendor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delaios View Post
    VP gear should award normal mode gear (heroic mode in WoD). If they added some for SoO, it should be 553. VP gear being higher level than flex/LFR is not a bad thing, especially in the case of LFR. If you've raided the previous tier, you should never even get possible upgrades from a new tier's LFR. I doubt Blizzard would ever do that though, because LFR usage would plummet like a brick as soon as it ceases to drop semi-useful gear.
    VP gear being better than flex level is questionable, but VP gear is generally less optimized and has a limited amount of gear slots. Only ToT had large amounts of Valor gear, but most of it was terrible with excessive amounts of hit/expertise.

    The best implementation of Valor/Justice was during Dragon Soul. The best pieces per slot (weapons/trinkets/tier) came from raiding only, with the only downside being boss-shared loot being exceptionally rare (I only ever saw one Vial of Shadows drop). Valor offered a limited amount of gear of normal mode quality, with one piece being BoE.
    For a raiding character you might buy a few pieces before you'd be in all normal mode gear from raiding. After that you could buy Valor gear for off-specs, or buy the BoE piece for use on alts or for selling it on the AH.
    For alts the system was a god-send. You'd queue up for dungeons where you'd get Firelands-level gear, including weapons and trinkets. Along the way you'd acquire JP and VP, which you used to fill out remaining slots (JP) and for upgrades (VP).
    For mains, the DS system was underwhelming at best. Drops lost a lot of their appeal knowing you could simply "grind them". Alts are not the focus of development, and shouldn't be.

  3. #123
    I'm worried about how are you going to gear alts for raiding without pve vendors. t14 - heroics + jp vendors; t15 - heroics for jp -> honor gear; t16s14 - timeless; t16s15 - heroics for jp -> honor. At some point some old vp gear moved to JP to give little options, but that's about it, you just changed it to honor otherwise. If you remove JP completely, and don't have high disparity between pvp and pve items like it did in s14, you will be looking at huge influx of freshly dinged chars at bgs doing nothing really productive just to gear up for lfr and flexes, which is not really fun for either them or people they are teamed with.

    To combat that, they will need to add either multiple heroics per raid tier (unlikely), scale up dungeon drops each tier, or have timeless-like gear drops each tier. Hope they will do at least something.

  4. #124
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    Also kinda sucks because I can no longer farm some honor in 5mans for example.
    Right now i have 577 itemlevel in PVE gear but 0 itemlevel on PVP gear. I can blaze through heroic dungeon in like 5 minutes, but I'm barely useful in a battleground or arena with this gear. Heroics provide quick way for me to grind some 522 honor gear easily.
    Tried capping arena in full PVE yesterday. While i did score some wins, it took very long time and battles where they had a healer lasted to about 60-70% dampening.
    Even tho we did execute nice lengthy CC chains on the healer, i just couldn't do enough damage. That is, 8 sec fear into 5 sec wyvren into 4 sec scatter into 6 sec frost trap, rinse and repeat.

  5. #125
    Oh joy, more RNG >.>

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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    For mains, the DS system was underwhelming at best. Drops lost a lot of their appeal knowing you could simply "grind them". Alts are not the focus of development, and shouldn't be.
    I disagree. Nothing's more discouraging than putting forth effort and time, and at the end of the week being no closer than you were when you started.

    It's like grinding a rare drop. No matter how many mobs you kill, you're never any closer to your goal, you're just trying over and over again to get lucky. There are plenty of activities like that in the game that I won't try because there is no guarantee of progress. (I'm ok with high time or difficulty, even absurdly high depending on the task, but only as long as I get at least a tiny bit closer to the goal).

  6. #126
    They did not out and out say valor and JP are going away. They are probably moving to a one currency system for both PVE and PVP, that's what I would do. Otherwise you could not get old gear, you could not get hierlooms, etc. for the past 3 expacs all (well most) gear except tier pieces. So yeah I really doubt this system is going away. Bonus rolls don't even begin to cut it, part of the gearing to get into raids in the first place is rep gear. I guess they could remove the requirement for that. Hmm.

  7. #127
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Well, if there's one thing this thread shows is that we should wait and see how this works on beta, and if there is still a currency, what this gives access to, how the drops actually play out etc.. this thread demonstrates that many people just see the "remove" side of the coin and can't really visualize the "get instead" side of it. We'll have to wait and see.

  8. #128
    Deleted
    The ability to upgrade that piece of shit weapon you've had for far too long, because RNG is a wankstain, was fantastic.

    This will be troublesome.


    Inb4 "WEAPONSNEVER DROP, CAN'T UPGRADE ITEMS. CAN'T DO DPS, BLZIZARDPL0X!!11"

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    I disagree. Nothing's more discouraging than putting forth effort and time, and at the end of the week being no closer than you were when you started.

    It's like grinding a rare drop. No matter how many mobs you kill, you're never any closer to your goal, you're just trying over and over again to get lucky. There are plenty of activities like that in the game that I won't try because there is no guarantee of progress. (I'm ok with high time or difficulty, even absurdly high depending on the task, but only as long as I get at least a tiny bit closer to the goal).
    Not a bad summary of my view; I think it's why people prefer grinds to pure RNG, as at least you're getting somewhere with a grind.

    "You'll get it eventually".

    That's the thing - no, you may not. You could do the same thing for years and simply never get what you're chasing.

  10. #130
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zell the Malefic View Post
    Not a bad summary of my view; I think it's why people prefer grinds to pure RNG, as at least you're getting somewhere with a grind.

    "You'll get it eventually".

    That's the thing - no, you may not. You could do the same thing for years and simply never get what you're chasing.
    While guaranteeing rewards in time makes content stale and redundant faster. There's flipsides to both approaches, with the focus on drops incentivizing the actual gameplay more and doesn't force to optimize gaining a currency somehow.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffseid View Post
    If you don't raid then what would anyone need JP/VP for anyway? And if you don't raid OR PvP then why play the game at all? To quest? To level? To farm gold? Pet Battles? None of which requires JP/VP/HP/CP gear.
    This is wrong. Blizzard increases the difficulty of PVE non-raiding activity each tier; Timeless Isle has stronger mobs than the Isle of Thunder mobs who are stronger than the Vale of Eternal Blossom mobs. As long as Blizzard follows that pattern, their needs to be gear progression for non-raiders.
    You're not allowed to discuss conspiracy theories on mmo-champion, which makes me wonder what they're trying to hide.

  12. #132
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    This is wrong. Blizzard increases the difficulty of PVE non-raiding activity each tier; Timeless Isle has stronger mobs than the Isle of Thunder mobs who are stronger than the Vale of Eternal Blossom mobs. As long as Blizzard follows that pattern, their needs to be gear progression for non-raiders.
    And there will be. To assume, as some have done in this thread, that a possible removal of Valor points / gear will somehow mean non-raiders don't any gear progression anymore is bordering on retarded. Blizzard isn't suddenly ignoring casuals and non-raiders, if anything, this portion of the playerbase has the least to complain about with the insane amount of alternate activities to raiding that are in the game as well as being implemented, as well as the catch-up mechanics that are always being added.

    Expect plenty of updated/new group content as well as Timeless Isle style content as WoD moves along.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    And there will be. To assume, as some have done in this thread, that a possible removal of Valor points / gear will somehow mean non-raiders don't any gear progression anymore is bordering on retarded. Blizzard isn't suddenly ignoring casuals and non-raiders, if anything, this portion of the playerbase has the least to complain about with the insane amount of alternate activities to raiding that are in the game as well as being implemented, as well as the catch-up mechanics that are always being added.

    Expect plenty of updated/new group content as well as Timeless Isle style content as WoD moves along.
    Oh I know, I was just pointing out the absurdity of the quote.
    You're not allowed to discuss conspiracy theories on mmo-champion, which makes me wonder what they're trying to hide.

  14. #134
    Banned -Superman-'s Avatar
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    There should be ONE currency for PvE and ONE currency for PvP. And they should have an equal exchange rate.
    Last edited by -Superman-; 2014-02-28 at 03:13 PM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    http://www.pcgamesn.com/wow/blizzard...rlords-draenor

    Seems both currencies are to be removed and loot will be purely handed out through drops.

    Seems alright to me, Valor points are pretty irrelevant these days and just used to upgrade, Justice points have barely any use.
    Seems to contradict what they said at Blizzcon 2013, Where queing with friends will reward more of either Valor or JP.

  16. #136
    Go back to the badges system. No caps on things, allow us to buy gear that is a tier behind or LFR quality with badge farming without any kind of restrictions. Might make me actually want to play my alts outside of logging into them, doing a random dungeon/scenario once per day for VP/rep/gold, doing their profession cooldown and logging off.

    The model in ICC was the best IMO. You could get mostly-full T10 and some offset 264 from frost badges, and T9 for other slots from triumph. There were systems in place to help you get them faster like the weekly raid and daily heroic quests. LFD had just been released and actually had quality players queuing up regularly. On top of that you could do both 10 and 25 man ICC for double badges each week. I had tons of alts that I loved playing and raiding with, some of which did heroics and got up to HLK. I would kill to have another raid tier like that where I could actually do real raiding with my alts and have fun with it, instead of slogging through LFR hoping to get lucky enough to get into a flex group to get gear that still sucks.
    Last edited by Farabee; 2014-02-28 at 03:50 PM.

  17. #137
    Vp has pretty much been for just upgrading gear since 5.4. Grinding trivial content for the sake of grinding. Were item upgrades not in the game (which I think they shouldn't), there would be no need for vp at all for many folks right now.

    Come to think of it, if there was no vp now, I wouldn't be on the stupid test of valor quest on my alts (quite possibly the stupidest quest for any legendary). "Hey we can't think of something cool right now so cap vp for 6 (now 3) weeks". Yee-freakin'-haw.

  18. #138
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zandrae View Post
    This is a pretty awful change for people with chronic bad luck.
    agreed does anyone remember all the 10 man guilds in firelands who went the entire patch without getting a certain piece for one or more of their raiders? this is whats going to happen more and more often come wod. just another reason for me to not buy it or resubscribe.
    this change will screw over rogues and other melee classes whose dps is tied to their weapons ilvl.
    Last edited by breadisfunny; 2014-02-28 at 09:39 PM.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  19. #139
    Just this past week I purchased a trinket for my tank with valour points after having no luck all week getting one from the raids.

    So now come WoD this idea that I can guarantee to offset a bad week with a decent, but much weaker than current tier item, I can instead have JUST my 3 weekly bonus rolls to cover it and once those fail to give anything but gold I'm fucked and enjoying my blue trinket and can just hope next weeks bonus rolls do better.

  20. #140
    Banned -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeya Shaman View Post
    Just this past week I purchased a trinket for my tank with valour points after having no luck all week getting one from the raids.

    So now come WoD this idea that I can guarantee to offset a bad week with a decent, but much weaker than current tier item, I can instead have JUST my 3 weekly bonus rolls to cover it and once those fail to give anything but gold I'm fucked and enjoying my blue trinket and can just hope next weeks bonus rolls do better.
    RNG - she's a cruel exwife. As for the currency thing, it is what it is.

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