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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    If you go down that route then you may as well just have everything baked into mindflay and just spam that for a whole fight.
    But minion sacrifice and shadowbolt spam was good gameplay! /s

    Binding heal could also become a discipline exclusive spell that heals two targets (and not necessarily the priest) with holy being given exclusive access to flash heal (with mana costs and throughput balanced of course). This would go some way to resolving the lack of AoE healing that discipline has outside of the L90 talents.

  2. #102
    Brewmaster Zombina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    Please no to almost everything you said.

    If you go down that route then you may as well just have everything baked into mindflay and just spam that for a whole fight.
    Our 'rotation' needs more, not less. It's already one of the simplest out there and that makes the delta between a skilled priest and an average priest depressingly small. When there's no reward for good play there's little incentive to try - which from my experience quickly diminishes the 'fun'.
    Well if fun to you is more buttons for no extra purpose then that's your prerogative, personally that diminishes the fun and I'd way rather see spells that actually do something depending on the situation and the same applies to many classes. Crusader strike is just an autoattack with a button, there's no point to it's existence.

    And at no point did I say bake everything into mindflay, so lets not put words into each other mouths ktxh

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post

    Shackle Undead is a niche spell and doesn't have a keybind (at least not since Wrath) I don't see it going.
    Fade has uses beyond an aggro dump, I macro it to my shadowfiend to make it tank - its won me fights in brawler's guild (also see tier 2 talent Phantasm)
    Mind Spike? Really? Its a core spell.
    Divine Hymn will be less powerful with haste snapshotting I believe.

    For Glyphs - Make Mind Vision a glyph and nobody loses, make the mana regen effect of Vampiric Touch a glyph that restores mana when you mind flay.
    I got Shackle bound. DKs Gargoyles are dangerous.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombina View Post
    Well if fun to you is more buttons for no extra purpose then that's your prerogative, personally that diminishes the fun and I'd way rather see spells that actually do something depending on the situation and the same applies to many classes. Crusader strike is just an autoattack with a button, there's no point to it's existence.

    And at no point did I say bake everything into mindflay, so lets not put words into each other mouths ktxh
    I'm not putting words in your mouth, I was just saying that once you head down the path of baking rotational abilities into each other then eventually you end up without anything to press.

    My understanding of bloat wasn't 'Vampiric touch, because we have SW: P'; rather, abilties that we have keybound but rarely if ever use. Mind Soothe was a good example of one that was previously cut. It wasn't an ability you could spell book when you needed it, but you needed it so rarely. Mind Vision is an example of something you use rarely but CAN spell book, there's little to no reason to need it keybound. Following that same logic I don't see many other spells left in the priests spell book that get used as rarely as mind soothe was, but needs to be keybound. Innerfire/Innerwill and Fearward maybe straddle the line - I guess you could spell book them since it's rare you need to cast these during combat.
    The only other thing I can think of is limiting the cross over spells between specs, which would involve removing things like flash heal from shadow and SW: P from holy, etc.
    Or potential redesigns of spells rarely used by certain specs. Hymn of Hope for example could be 'each time mind blast deals damage, 100 mana is distributed between the 3 lowest mana nearby party or raid members'. Or whatever else to keep the utility but remove the button.

    I just think it'd be a tough argument to make to say that vampiric touch and / or SW: P are 'bloat'. They are staple components to shadow priest gameplay and the last thing shadow needs is to be simplified.


    EDIT; after browsing my spell book. Psychic Horror could go. I havn't pressed it once this xpac, although I don't pvp. Either cut it or remove the orb cost.
    Psychic Scream would be on my list if forced to cut some, although I think this will be determined more on their overall CC redesign rather than trying to reduce bloat.
    Shackle Undead same issue as Psychic Scream
    Last edited by Redsparowe; 2014-03-06 at 04:53 PM.
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  5. #105
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    I kind of disagree with the Psychic Scream bashing crowd - landing multi-fears is a big part of skillful pvp for us - anticipating and avoiding it from enemy priests is equally important.

    Shackle could go - I could see that. But Psychic Scream? That's a big part of our game - I think it should stay, and other classes should lose their multitudes of fear breaks/immunities - it's what you should be watching for from a priest: and it makes pvp more interesting than just having some cast-time single target CC (like Shackle, actually?)

    I'd actually prefer we move away from Warlock Fear, Mage Polymorph, Druid Cyclone - triple-fear cycling the enemy team into DR isn't a fun or skillful gameplay - let alone what MLS and MLD do. If anything, I would rather see more avoidable CC like Psychic Scream - which can potentially have a high payoff if you land double or triple or quad fears - rather than cast time cc which is spammable.
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  6. #106
    Brewmaster Zombina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    I'm not putting words in your mouth, I was just saying that once you head down the path of baking rotational abilities into each other then eventually you end up without anything to press.
    Then I'll reiterate what I wrote for you to re-read;

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombina View Post
    I'd way rather see spells that actually do something depending on the situation and the same applies to many classes.
    A single spell rotation isn't fun, and that isn't what I said I wanted, those were your words. But that's essentially what we have, a monotone rotation, you just have to push many buttons to do it. There is no difference between SW:P and VT, they are one spell with two buttons, you always want both of them up, zero thought, zero player consideration just put it up when they end rinse & repeat ad infinitum - there is no right or wrong time to use them.

    What I would like to see more of is a simpler 'filler' rotation with more offensive spells that have a significant effect depending on when you choose to use them. I liked how archangel worked for disc priests, it had an ongoing benefit while you were spamming, then a good active effective for you to use in the right situation where you actually had to think before pushing the button. Whether you use one button for your entire rotation or ten for every tick of SW: P it doesn't change how thoughtless the rotation is atm, no thought just keep the dots up - that isn't skill.

  7. #107
    I can certainly agree with that. Although SW: P and VT do have their differences. Sure on patchwork it's just 'keep them both up' but on many encounters there is an interesting decision about dot choice. Movement plays a big part of that as does the number of multidot targets and how important the 'main' target is. I SW: P most of the adds on Galakras, but I don't VT most of them, for example. Although that's mostly dictated by the damage each one does rather than any significant gameplay management (imagine if shadow apps did give orbs, that would hugely change the role of SW: P).
    So I agree that at the moment it's a minor thing having 2 dots that essentially function the same, but I disagree that merging them is the answer, I'd rather see them become more distinct. FDCL and DI are cool in that they alter the important of those dots, I'd like to see more of that.
    Redsparowe#2548 <Crayola Inc>, Lightbringer EU

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombina View Post
    There is no difference between SW:P and VT, they are one spell with two buttons, you always want both of them up, zero thought, zero player consideration just put it up when they end rinse & repeat ad infinitum - there is no right or wrong time to use them.
    Ummm no. Spoils of Pandaria is a perfect example of the difference. You can't and shouldn't keep VT up on all targets, and keeping VT up on the right targets is the difference between good performance and OOM bottom dps.

  9. #109
    I'd personally like to get rid of all of T90 talents. They're just so boring, and seem too flamboyant for Shadow imo. You really just hit it and forget.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I kind of disagree with the Psychic Scream bashing crowd - landing multi-fears is a big part of skillful pvp for us - anticipating and avoiding it from enemy priests is equally important.

    Shackle could go - I could see that. But Psychic Scream? That's a big part of our game - I think it should stay, and other classes should lose their multitudes of fear breaks/immunities - it's what you should be watching for from a priest: and it makes pvp more interesting than just having some cast-time single target CC (like Shackle, actually?)

    I'd actually prefer we move away from Warlock Fear, Mage Polymorph, Druid Cyclone - triple-fear cycling the enemy team into DR isn't a fun or skillful gameplay - let alone what MLS and MLD do. If anything, I would rather see more avoidable CC like Psychic Scream - which can potentially have a high payoff if you land double or triple or quad fears - rather than cast time cc which is spammable.
    Actually when it comes to psychic scream, its not that I want it to go. From press videos, psychic scream may already be gone. Its still unknown whether it was missing because its actually removed or because its being rebuilt. It could be mind control is becoming baseline again, and psychic scream is becoming the talent. It could be they're just removing aoe CC.

    They've removed disarms, meaning psychic horror could replace psychic scream as a single target CC, with a baseline 3-4 sec horrify (rather than needing orbs, hopefully).

    Time will tell.
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  11. #111
    Every time I read this thread I swear I'm share a class with a bunch of lazy people. Some of things you guys claim you need to bind is so out of whack. Worse is the people wanting to get rid of mind vision for no reason.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmorgrim View Post

    They've removed disarms, meaning psychic horror could replace psychic scream as a single target CC, with a baseline 3-4 sec horrify (rather than needing orbs, hopefully).

    Time will tell.
    I hope it's this, I really do hate this Psychic Horror.

  13. #113
    As I said before, they can't remove psychic scream. It would be the worst change i have seen in the past 9 years of playing shadowpriest.

    It is a core part of shadow pvp gameplay to land it when necessary and hit multiple targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNovster View Post
    I'd personally like to get rid of all of T90 talents. They're just so boring, and seem too flamboyant for Shadow imo. You really just hit it and forget.
    Agree. Halo was 'cool' for 1-2 weeks and Cascade is completly useless in pvp.

  14. #114
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    I don't think that will lose it, but we must lose it, because it's terrible: Shadow Apparitions

  15. #115
    Brewmaster Alanar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serratth View Post
    I got Shackle bound. DKs Gargoyles are dangerous.
    Exactly this, if you don't have a macro in pvp for auto target chackle on gargoyle then you have no clue..

    Outside of this this spec is hardly used, but against dk's it's kinda key.


  16. #116
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    How bout that Disc-only version Holy Nova. Wonder what it'll beeeeeeee

  17. #117
    Apparently they want us to lose the ability to instant cast our level 90 talents and Prayer of Mending.

    "All of these changes taken together are intended to make gameplay more consistent between PvE and PvP, and invigorate healers with more dynamic gameplay."

    I would agree with a greater risk/reward model being more fun, but I'm not seeing anything about increasing the strength of the spells changed from instant to 1.5s cast time. For instance, renew is not exciting at all. The amount it heals is quite low, and it's guaranteed aside from being dispelled. If it healed more but was harder to cast and cost more mana, that might be more rewarding for both the caster and enemies trying to stop it.
    Last edited by Achtalon; 2014-03-07 at 04:03 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    I don't think that will lose it, but we must lose it, because it's terrible: Shadow Apparitions
    Aww cmon, it's not THAT terrible anymore. Remember the "every day i'm shufflin'" days when they would get confused midway and stop to play poker with one another.

  19. #119
    Yes, psychic horror has been a part of priest pvp forever... and just like everyone else that's losing their aoe CC, they have to adapt.

    Aoe CC is being made extremely more rare and weaker, if not removed altogether everywhere.
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  20. #120
    Psychic Horror was a great spell until they added the orb cost. Why doesn't warlocks Fear/Howl use shards/embers, same with Paladins HoJ and holy power? Their design logic is so wierd sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I kind of disagree with the Psychic Scream bashing crowd - landing multi-fears is a big part of skillful pvp for us - anticipating and avoiding it from enemy priests is equally important.

    Shackle could go - I could see that. But Psychic Scream? That's a big part of our game - I think it should stay, and other classes should lose their multitudes of fear breaks/immunities - it's what you should be watching for from a priest: and it makes pvp more interesting than just having some cast-time single target CC (like Shackle, actually?)

    I'd actually prefer we move away from Warlock Fear, Mage Polymorph, Druid Cyclone - triple-fear cycling the enemy team into DR isn't a fun or skillful gameplay - let alone what MLS and MLD do. If anything, I would rather see more avoidable CC like Psychic Scream - which can potentially have a high payoff if you land double or triple or quad fears - rather than cast time cc which is spammable.
    Yes that's all true, but then you meet a shaman and all that skill vanishes. With Totemic Restoration Tremor's cd is like 35 seconds so they can basically Tremor each of your PS. But it has been like that since ages so I guess they are fine with our CC being useless agains one specific class.

    Don't get me wrong. Landing a huge PS feels like you won the world cup ;p But it's a bit sad that Shamans can counter it so easily.

    Maybe they want to go into the direction of removing PS and leaving us with only PH as a single target non spamable CC.

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