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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The appeal of vanilla dungeons was that they were ACTUALLY dungeons. You weren't just waltzing into some place because it was there. Every dungeon had a massive story behind it, and an actual evil to defeat that was hidden deep within. And when you walked in to do so, you felt like you were being overpowered by their forces, with the only things keeping you alive being your righteous defender and noble healer. And I mean you ALWAYS felt like it. Trash would literally be too powerful if you weren't careful.

    Take BRD for example. I was far from a seasoned veteran when I first went there. And I'll admit it. I got lost. So too did the rest of my group. And we DIDN'T CARE. Why? Because the WHOLE POINT of the dungeon was that you were invading an enemy fortress. Hell no you're not supposed to know where you're going, and that's perfectly fine. It took me over a dozen runs to realize how to get to the other half of the instance, and I COULD NOT WAIT to lead more people through it. That place was epic. And the first time we got to the room with the torchkeepers? Don't even get me started. I was happier than a pig in the filthiest shit it could find.

    Theme is everything in a game. When you lose sight of the theme, you're left with... Well, what WoW has become. I mean, look at Stormstout Brewery... I know there's a story behind it and all... But what in fucks name are we supposed to be accomplishing there? What in hells name do a bunch of partying monkeys have to do with Chen's family's brewery? And do we even accomplish anything? It looked to me like it ends with Uncle Gao basically being like "Who the fuck cares if I screwed everything up, I succeeded!" All in fifteen minutes or less! I don't understand how people can say dungeons these days are even comparable to old dungeons. Today's dungeons can't even wave a god damned stick at old dungeons.
    I'll be honest, I don't really recall the story of many of the Vanilla dungeons. Maybe it's a time-sensitive thing, though because since WotLK, I remember exactly why most of the dungeons exist because there were lengthy quest chains leading up to the events of the dungeon.

    Back in Vanilla, I definitely remember a story leading into WC and VC. I didn't quest much to get to it, but there was lore about ST. I found out about that lore because I was researching why the heck there were elite dragonkin all around that place. But most of the places may have had their own story, but they didn't fit in to the overall world and story the way Dungeons have since Wrath. A few examples:

    Wrath - the epic adventure through Howling Fjord, only to have Lich King snatch away the final boss and send him to Utgarde Pinnacle. Then at 80 you came back to UP and finally closed out that story line. Or going through the Coldara quests and seeing Keristraza sacrifice herself for you, leading you to go into the dungeon and "free" her.
    Cata - All of Vash'jir culinates in a 5man (TotT) that was supposed to also include a raid that got scrapped. Uldum is practically a feature length movie (and spoof on Indiana Jones) leading up to Halls of Origination.
    Mists - Temple of the Jade serpent is the culmination of Jade Forrest zone. Kun'Lai summit has a lengthy quest chain, whose story ends at the door of an instance. I do think the Mogu weren't introduced as well as they should have been, so Mogu'shan Palace felt like some weird, somewhat random adventure....

    As for Stormstout Brewry, that's a huge step in Chen Stormstout's journey. The point is his family's legacy is being trampled and their brewry has been run into the ground to the point there ARE crazy hozen partying around and Virmen have taken over a part of the place as well.

    To counter your point, you spent several hours not even running all of BRD. How can you say you even accomplished anything in those multiple hours when you couldn't even get to the other part of the dungeon?

    I'll concede dungeons today are not as "epic" in length, but that's largely because they're being used as a piece of a larger story, like in Chen Stormstout's case. That's just one part of Chen's overall story line. BRD was, well, kind of integrated into the story. Parts of it were, anyways. Mostly it was just a place that existed and had some people in it and you went in and killed stuff for hours on end.

  2. #162
    The appeal of dungeons was that 99% of players have nothing else to do at lvl60.


    End of story.

  3. #163
    I just like how open they are, I don't like it when they're linear. Maraudon, old WC, Deadmines, Dire maul. I literally played hide and seek in some of those dungeons in the past for fun and it was some of the best WoW time I've ever had xD. The dungeons nowadays are just way too linear, and I don't consider a layout like ICC to be 'non linear' - One big hall that breaks off into 3 paths isn't what I mean; I want labyrinths.

  4. #164
    I always liked dungeons new and old, the only one I can remember hating was H HoR because of stupid people, and Occulus because of stupid people. Other than that loved the dungeons new and old, I just wish I could get my guildies to grind them out with me.

  5. #165
    Mostly nostalgia...they were horribly designed, really long and annoying. You had to farm rare materials for enchants or other stuff. Runes from Diremaul and Scholo, righteous orb and other crap or items that were BiS till mid/end MC. I'm glad this is over. If it were stille like that I would've quit WoW by now.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by vinmmo View Post
    I'll be honest, I don't really recall the story of many of the Vanilla dungeons. Maybe it's a time-sensitive thing, though because since WotLK, I remember exactly why most of the dungeons exist because there were lengthy quest chains leading up to the events of the dungeon.

    Back in Vanilla, I definitely remember a story leading into WC and VC. I didn't quest much to get to it, but there was lore about ST. I found out about that lore because I was researching why the heck there were elite dragonkin all around that place. But most of the places may have had their own story, but they didn't fit in to the overall world and story the way Dungeons have since Wrath...

    I'll concede dungeons today are not as "epic" in length, but that's largely because they're being used as a piece of a larger story, like in Chen Stormstout's case. That's just one part of Chen's overall story line. BRD was, well, kind of integrated into the story. Parts of it were, anyways. Mostly it was just a place that existed and had some people in it and you went in and killed stuff for hours on end.
    The thing is, you argue that a dungeon has to fit into the events going on around it. And I would counter that point with "No, it really doesn't."

    Part of what made them feel like real dungeons were that you only knew about them BECAUSE you did those huge quest chains leading up to them. (If you wanted the quests in the dungeons, anyway.) These weren't cartoon villains who came out and said "IF YOU WANT TO STOP ME, FIND ME AT THIS ADDRESS AND COME HUNT ME DOWN! YOU'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO STOP ME THOUGH, SO IF YOU WERE TO SHOW UP AT XYZ GIGANTIC FUCKING MOUNTAIN DRIVE AND TRY, YOU WOULD ONLY BE WASTING YOUR TIME!!!"

    These villains were made to feel like actual villains. Who actually were trying to end the world. And if they went and told the world they were trying to end it, it wouldn't be the brightest thing in the world, now would it? You found out the stories behind these dungeons by playing the game. Shocking, I know, but just trust me... You'll get a better experience in game by PLAYING IT than by avoiding it.

    It wasn't even the length that made them epic. How can I say I accomplished anything? Easy; I went into a dungeon and had fun. I accomplished what I wanted to do in the dungeon. Despite what people seem to believe, dungeons aren't all about getting to the end. BRD is the perfect example of this because so many people wanted to do it, but so FEW people knew how to get to the end by mid BC. Yet while leveling, I found dozens upon dozens of groups to do it. (As a DPS even!)

    I don't have to kill the final boss of a dungeon in order to accomplish something. I still killed bosses, and I still had fun. 'Having fun' seems to be lost on most WoW players these days. It's all about loot to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  7. #167
    Todays wow caters to people with business attitude who want instant gratification and get their "points". Wow has become sport.

    WoW was perfect game in vanilla, it was actual world of warcraft. Dungeons were actual dungeons.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The thing is, you argue that a dungeon has to fit into the events going on around it. And I would counter that point with "No, it really doesn't."

    Part of what made them feel like real dungeons were that you only knew about them BECAUSE you did those huge quest chains leading up to them. (If you wanted the quests in the dungeons, anyway.) These weren't cartoon villains who came out and said "IF YOU WANT TO STOP ME, FIND ME AT THIS ADDRESS AND COME HUNT ME DOWN! YOU'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO STOP ME THOUGH, SO IF YOU WERE TO SHOW UP AT XYZ GIGANTIC FUCKING MOUNTAIN DRIVE AND TRY, YOU WOULD ONLY BE WASTING YOUR TIME!!!"

    These villains were made to feel like actual villains. Who actually were trying to end the world. And if they went and told the world they were trying to end it, it wouldn't be the brightest thing in the world, now would it? You found out the stories behind these dungeons by playing the game. Shocking, I know, but just trust me... You'll get a better experience in game by PLAYING IT than by avoiding it.

    It wasn't even the length that made them epic. How can I say I accomplished anything? Easy; I went into a dungeon and had fun. I accomplished what I wanted to do in the dungeon. Despite what people seem to believe, dungeons aren't all about getting to the end. BRD is the perfect example of this because so many people wanted to do it, but so FEW people knew how to get to the end by mid BC. Yet while leveling, I found dozens upon dozens of groups to do it. (As a DPS even!)

    I don't have to kill the final boss of a dungeon in order to accomplish something. I still killed bosses, and I still had fun. 'Having fun' seems to be lost on most WoW players these days. It's all about loot to them.

    Name one end boss of lvl60 vanilla dungeon that you knew at least something about before stepping into instance.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by LazarusLong View Post
    Name one end boss of lvl60 vanilla dungeon that you knew at least something about before stepping into instance.
    Edwin Van Cleef.
    Eranikus.
    Emperor Dagran Thaurissan. (And his at-the-time mind controlled wife Moira Bronzebeard.)

    That's three. Need more?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  10. #170
    Basically, Vanilla dungeons were actual REAL 5-men content, which could last some time and required effort.
    You could see some of them as 5-men raids in fact. They offered group gameplay that could be started anytime (unlike raids which would require a lot of organization), and which was significant to the game.
    One single dungeon (save for the few that were very short, like Deadmines - which is still quite longer than most of today's instances - or running just one wing of Scarlet Monastery) would last quite a bit of time, which allowed for a good deal of fun instead of being finished right after being began, and lead to less burn-out (as you wouldn't rerun them as often).

    Unlike WotLK and later dung, which were just short pretext scenarios you would rush in ten minutes just to get your rewards.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Edwin Van Cleef.
    Eranikus.
    Emperor Dagran Thaurissan. (And his at-the-time mind controlled wife Moira Bronzebeard.)

    That's three. Need more?
    Van Cleef wasn't level 60 dungeon boss. Deadmines was for like, level 17+ back then.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiserne Drossel View Post
    Van Cleef wasn't level 60 dungeon boss. Deadmines was for like, level 17+ back then.
    Not many dungeons were tuned specifically for level 60, either. I was using Vanilla dungeons in general. But alright.

    Rend Blackhand, and from the fight with him, Nefarian (Although both were technically raid bosses.)
    Baron Rivendare of Stratholme
    Darkmaster Gandling of Scholomance. Ras Frostwhisper as well. And Alexei Barov.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by LazarusLong View Post
    The appeal of dungeons was that 99% of players have nothing else to do at lvl60.


    End of story.
    The appeal was that 99% of the players had never played a game with instanced dungeons before. It's easy to see why they would have mass appeal to an audience that's almost entirely never done that sort of thing before. It's a good formula for content.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    BRD is awesome but imagine running your daily heroics and getting a 4 hour crawl through BRD instead.

    It'd be great if they made a massive dungeon like that outside of the traditional heroic VP grind though, just for fun.
    Imagine not having daily heroics because there is content that lasts...

  15. #175
    Bloodsail Admiral Teebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duridi View Post
    Sorry... I just had to. ULDAMAN!
    Ahh, yes. My bad

  16. #176
    I like the idea of playing Vanilla WoW than probably actually doing them. Getting keys for UBRS. Getting keys for Onyxia, Getting keyed for MC. etc etc. In retrospect it was good times since it was new. Nowadays it just sounds tedious and awful. Most of us probably would have quit if the progression wasn't changed.

    The dungeons did take a bit more coordination. Not a lot. It did mean mages were almost mandatory for CC.

    Maraudon was probabaly my favorite Vanilla instance though. As a poster said before. It did require hours to go through some. BRD was so bad.

  17. #177
    The only old dungeons I have fond memory of are UBRS, Scholo, and Maraudon. UBRS ans Scholo only because of the PEOPLE I ran them with, not the place itself. I'd still play if I played with those people. Maraudon, because it was just weird in a way that I liked it, and I felt like the only person who didn't get lost there and knew where everything was.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
    Also, it's should HAVE. NOT "should of". "Should of" doesn't even make sense. If you think you should own a cat, do you say "I should of a cat" or "I should have a cat"? Do you HAVE cats, or do you OF cats?

  18. #178
    Stood in the Fire sargior's Avatar
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    I think the difference is the amount of times you actually completed each instance. It use to take about an hour to find a group and take flight paths and use ground mounts to get to there. Summoning stones use to be called meeting stones...

    Also blue gear was very valuable so you didn't just go there for points to buy epics and raids only dropped a couple epics split across 20 or 40 people..

    Dungeons where hard and you had to know how to sap, trap, kite or wipe and retry. Druids never had a res so everyone had to run back to the instance after a wipe and sometimes the run itself was a few minutes long.

    And.. Was never cross realm, you knew that the people in the group would be seen again so you had to make sure you didn't screw around so you didn't get a bad rep.

  19. #179
    I can tell you right now that i hated BRD to the point of not actually doing it completly.

    I did all the runs or parts except LBRS, with UBRS being my favorite....ahh the countless runs trying to get my lightforge shoulders.

  20. #180
    They were aesthetically pleasing, and the majority of them didn't feel as if they were contrived or hamfisted into a particular area. As the cliche goes, they felt like places that existed organically in a world instead of areas that were fit into a zone just because the game needed dungeons, which was an issue with many BC and Wrath instances. In terms of aesthetics, Maraudon, Wailing Caverns, Dire Maul, Blackrock Depths, and Blackfathom Deeps were instances that really stood out as having stunning visual design relative to when they were released. Maraudon in particular arguably remains of the most beautiful areas in the entire game almost a decade later. More generally, many of the dungeons felt as if they hadn't simply been artificially introduced or designed, but rather that they existed as an almost seamless part of the exterior world in terms of functionality and purpose.

    Regarding dungeon feel and atmosphere, the entire Blackrock Mountain complex, Scholomance, and Stratholme all evoked, at least for me, a sense of danger when you zoned in. They had this pseudo 'high fantasy meets Warcraft' vibe going on that made you feel that you were in for a traditional dungeon-crawling experience, which was awesome at the time. Visually, many contemporary dungeons definitely hit the mark and the art and design teams continue to hit home runs. Some instances have come close to replicating that vibe that some of us crave, but I think it was the themes and art style of Vanilla, which just scream 'Classic Warcraft,' that fostered my appreciation for them.

    Of course, after doing them almost daily for a period of years, they lose their appeal, but I still have a soft spot for certain leveling dungeons that evoke just the right amount of nostalgia.

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