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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TmrAsakura View Post
    I'm sure a big majority of subscriber loss in WoW is due to it being a decade old game and people just getting burned out which is fine, it happens with every game, i myself have been playing since late BC with no breaks and still enjoying the game
    Market saturation as well. With 100 million players (give or take) having played the game at some point, it stands to reason that there's been a significant rate of players dropping out all along; just with an equal-or-greater rate of new players joining to counterbalance it. Sooner or later everybody who's going to take an interest in WoW will have already done so.

  2. #22
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kickbuttmario View Post
    LONG POST INCOMING!!

    First I want to make it clear that I am not a subscriber.
    Nice read. But I don't think you have to be a subscriber to have these opinions and they don't become more or less valid if you are. That said, when a game designer or developer speaks up about WoW, that is when I get interested.

    At the end of the day, very, very few on these forums (or any forum) are that - and neither do they gather or have data like Blizzard does. Yes I hear you say "I don't have to be a cook to know if food tastes good or bad", but just with cooking it is about taste. Some people love snails, others haggis, some hamburgers and even about hamburgers you can go between a 1 dollar McDonnalds Hamburger and a 25 dollar luxusburger in a restaurant. And eventhen, some will prefer the 1 dollar burger

    So...it is all cool and well to have an opinion if the game goes in the proper direction or not, if sub loss can be stopped and what is the reason for it. At the end of the day, not even other studios with much bigger franchises behind them (SW or LotR) could even scratch at WoWs success or attract as many players (initially, no idea how many play SW now that it is F2p)

    We can get 100 posters in here and get 100 different opinions. And every one of them is probably as valid and as well argued as the other, all of them have one thing in common: They are made by fand or non-fans without any real data or understanding of the process of designing and maintaining a multi million player game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by profanity79 View Post
    They missed a real big trick in this game by neglecting PvP. Wrath had the most subs, in my opinion, because it had fun PvP.
    I'd say this is a good example because it shows how everyone sees it from a different angle.

    We have:
    -Wrath had most subs because it had the best pvp
    -Wrath had the most subs because it had the most casual approach to raids
    -Wrath had the most subs because everyone knew the Arthas story from WC3
    -Wrath did everything right and the most subs were the proof
    -Wrath had the most subs but was still the most shitty x-pac, just because Justin Bieber has so many fans doesn't mean he is good
    -Wrath led to the decline of WoW because it introduced LFD
    -Wrath might have had the most subs, but TBC had the biggest percentage groth, proof that TBC was the better xpac

    All arguments...or should I say statements that posters on this forum have made.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by profanity79 View Post
    They missed a real big trick in this game by neglecting PvP. Wrath had the most subs, in my opinion, because it had fun PvP. The tendency for them to sink time and effort into raids and dungeons when they should have focused on PvP is beyond me. When I first heard Blizzard were making World of Warcraft. I had an idea in my mind of what this might involve, Wintergrasp is the closest they have come to hitting that ideal.

    Full on warfare is what I want, but we get these watered down battlegrounds and arenas. I have never really enjoyed arenas I only ever did them for gear as I suspect most people do.
    OP managed to completely ignore this part. PvP was HORRIBLE at the beginning of WotLK but was undeniably the most active and arguably the most balanced and subjectively the most fun for the rest of the expansion.
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  4. #24
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    They shouldn't have neglected pvp so much. World pvp? Dead or pve players have had a massive advantage most of this expansion. New season? here have a different coloured set of the same design of gear. Too much instancing, too much arena. They failed to realize that if you provide an environment for pvp, then pvp players can and do largely make their own content. It's all part of the direction of making the game increasingly linear and restricting choice.

  5. #25
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    I'm sure, if you went back in time to 2004 and showed Blizzard a graph of their subscriber numbers go up, then down over the course of a decade, they would be more than enthused and not at all surprised by the trend. It's nature, subscribers go up, subscribers go down, you can't explain that.
    Plus, they said themselves (Interview with Rob Pardo on the 5 year anniversary) that initially they expected WoW to hit 800 000 subs and they'd be happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamza View Post
    They shouldn't have neglected pvp so much. World pvp? Dead or pve players have had a massive advantage most of this expansion. New season? here have a different coloured set of the same design of gear. Too much instancing, too much arena. They failed to realize that if you provide an environment for pvp, then pvp players can and do largely make their own content. It's all part of the direction of making the game increasingly linear and restricting choice.
    Like I said...everyone has their opinions but what makes you think yours is the true one and Blizzard cannot see what you see despite monitorin player behaviour 24/7.

    IIRC pvp realm players were the ones to get the world firsts. What advantage do dead players or pve players have again? i certainly didn't understand that part.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Zenny's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed X, game no longer does X to my satisfaction thus the declining subs. If WoW went back to doing X like they used to during Y then this game would have 1 trillion subs.

    /everysinglethreadonthismatterever

  7. #27
    Direction will be what their business analysts believe will bring in the most wonga.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    OP managed to completely ignore this part. PvP was HORRIBLE at the beginning of WotLK but was undeniably the most active and arguably the most balanced and subjectively the most fun for the rest of the expansion.
    Heh... remember Wrath start, when all honor gear (maybe relics were an exception) had a ratings requirement? What a fiasco! Fortunately, they rapidly retreated from that.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans Kickbuttmario's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenny View Post
    I really enjoyed X, game no longer does X to my satisfaction thus the declining subs. If WoW went back to doing X like they used to during Y then this game would have 1 trillion subs.

    /everysinglethreadonthismatterever
    Why do I have the feeling that you didn't read my post
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  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Constraint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMin View Post
    Direction will be what their business analysts believe will bring in the most wonga.
    This. When your business is worth as much as Activision-Blizzard, those at the top will demand it. And trust me, they get what they want. Every time.

  11. #31
    I think we are getting out of the era of dedicated serious MMOs. Life is very mobile and fluid now, and gaming is reflecting that. Hearthstone is exactly in that niche, i think. The other issue is that the barrier to entry for WoW is really hard. You have so much to learn so quickly, and now 4 expacs to slog through, with 10 years or so of lore to figure out. Plus the enormous cost of all the expacs (okay now just normal game + cata + MOP). Anyway you are looking at $100 close to, if you didn't buy on sale. So yeah i think subs will continue to decline, and it's not that the game is bad or stale, it's just old, and it's the same damn thing every expac. And basically MMOs are the same except for something EVE online. So yeah no wonder why the whole genre is in decline.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans Kickbuttmario's Avatar
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    https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/game/wow

    Its $40 plus %25 off if you buy both wow+mop
    I am KickButtMario. I kick butt because I am Mario. The coolest, longest, living, protagonist out there in the video game industry.

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  13. #33
    Stood in the Fire profanity79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Neglecting PvP? Are you serious?

    PvP is the source of (virtually) ALL problems in the game:
    - FotM whiners
    - Short interrupt for all Melee makes hard casting impossible. In response casters get too much CC, which again is neglegted in PvE, because melee (in general) can't CC.
    - PvP complains ruin class mechanics (e.g. druid fear immunity/break and root-breaking, just to name two) in PvE
    - PvP became mandatory for Pve progression of legendary PvE weapon (which then appeared to be a boring cloak)
    - PvP gear (still) have an iLevel that makes it possible to cheat your way into PvE and then underperform.
    - PvP have ruined the need for "support" style classes..

    There are probably many more reasons, these are just what I could think of, in a few seconds..
    Clearly you don't PvP then... or certainly haven't PvP'ed this expansion. I don't really see how valid your opinion is if you don't even know the subject. PvP should have a lot more focus than it currently does. They really should put the War back into Warcraft....

    Blaming PvP for the games problems is laughable... this game should be about PvP!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by profanity79 View Post
    They missed a real big trick in this game by neglecting PvP. Wrath had the most subs, in my opinion, because it had fun PvP. The tendency for them to sink time and effort into raids and dungeons when they should have focused on PvP is beyond me. When I first heard Blizzard were making World of Warcraft. I had an idea in my mind of what this might involve, Wintergrasp is the closest they have come to hitting that ideal.

    Full on warfare is what I want, but we get these watered down battlegrounds and arenas. I have never really enjoyed arenas I only ever did them for gear as I suspect most people do.
    I don't believe that at all. The majority of players don't pvp but pve. Wrath had awesome lore, great scenery and immersive story telling. The Lich King, the big antagonist, was everywhere, and you knew it. I think those were the reasons why Wotlk was so successful.

  15. #35
    Pit Lord FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by profanity79 View Post
    Blaming PvP for the games problems is laughable... this game should be about PvP!
    The game is a PvE game, and was from day 1...
    PvP is an addition that came alone the way, first with world PvP, then BGs and later Arenas..
    Blizzard have stated over and over, PvE is the primary focus of the game..

    Thus, whenever a PvP issue, breaks something in PvE, we have a SERIOUS issue..
    If PvP needs to be removed, to fix PvE, so be it..

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by profanity79 View Post
    Clearly you don't PvP then... or certainly haven't PvP'ed this expansion. I don't really see how valid your opinion is if you don't even know the subject. PvP should have a lot more focus than it currently does. They really should put the War back into Warcraft....

    Blaming PvP for the games problems is laughable... this game should be about PvP!

    I mean, the game has so much conflict between horde and alliance.. I don't understand why its not more about PvP. I have flip flopped between hardcore raiding to hardcore pvp multiple times.

    I have seen so many changes to balance PvP or PvE based on something being to strong/weak in the opposite enviornment. A good example is the buffs in 5.4 to hunters, dks, and shamans. That buff was a PvE buff but completely uneccesary in PvP. I wish they would take the time and seperate the enviornments so they can fine tune PvE for PvE.. and PvP for PvP.. it would make an amazing experience all around.. although its a lot of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    The game is a PvE game, and was from day 1...
    PvP is an addition that came alone the way, first with world PvP, then BGs and later Arenas..
    Blizzard have stated over and over, PvE is the primary focus of the game..

    Thus, whenever a PvP issue, breaks something in PvE, we have a SERIOUS issue..
    If PvP needs to be removed, to fix PvE, so be it..
    This game is not a PvE only game though, stop being biased in your opinion and views. Just because blizzard says they focus on PvE doesn't mean PvP should be left in the dust.

    The fact you want to remove pvp.. which has almost equal participation as pve.. is not the right solution. Not only that, pvp has been around since vanilla, maybe not the instant it launched sure but 90% of the stuff you can do today wasn't around at launch.. so im not sure what your means of "along the way is". ... just because arena didn't come around until BC... doesn't mean its not part of this game, the majority of players didn't join until Wrath..

    Again as i said above, blizzard should have a 3rd spec - a pvp only spec which changes your abilities to ones that are designed for pvp, but that requires more time and effort and takes away from content development.
    Last edited by xhisors; 2014-02-28 at 07:07 AM.

  17. #37
    Herald of the Titans Kickbuttmario's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Nice read. But I don't think you have to be a subscriber to have these opinions and they don't become more or less valid if you are. That said, when a game designer or developer speaks up about WoW, that is when I get interested.

    At the end of the day, very, very few on these forums (or any forum) are that - and neither do they gather or have data like Blizzard does. Yes I hear you say "I don't have to be a cook to know if food tastes good or bad", but just with cooking it is about taste. Some people love snails, others haggis, some hamburgers and even about hamburgers you can go between a 1 dollar McDonnalds Hamburger and a 25 dollar luxusburger in a restaurant. And eventhen, some will prefer the 1 dollar burger

    So...it is all cool and well to have an opinion if the game goes in the proper direction or not, if sub loss can be stopped and what is the reason for it. At the end of the day, not even other studios with much bigger franchises behind them (SW or LotR) could even scratch at WoWs success or attract as many players (initially, no idea how many play SW now that it is F2p)

    We can get 100 posters in here and get 100 different opinions. And every one of them is probably as valid and as well argued as the other, all of them have one thing in common: They are made by fand or non-fans without any real data or understanding of the process of designing and maintaining a multi million player game.
    Sorry for late reply.

    You're right, most threads on these are pretty much the same. The only opinion that has any sort of valid objectivity when it comes to specific features in WOW are Blizzard themselves. Kinda makes me wonder if some of us were actual game designers or developers, we may have some understanding on whats going on in their heads. We never ever truly got a real reason why they switched from TBC to Wrath in the first place, I am kinda interested in seeing what their reason is.

    Also SWTOR is actually doing pretty good, according to them mods (they linked some articles in their forums).
    I am KickButtMario. I kick butt because I am Mario. The coolest, longest, living, protagonist out there in the video game industry.

    Currently playing Guild Wars 2 and Wildstar

  18. #38
    If the designers want a good idea of what to do in order to make players happy, just look at ICC-era WOTLK.

    Excellent gear progression for everyone, even your alts. Weekly raid quests, daily dungeon quests, the beginning of the LFD system when it offered rewards you cared about. Arenas were fun, class balance was nearly perfect. Pug raids happening every night for 10 and 25 man normal, and even some heroics. Few rep grinds and the ones in-game either gave great rewards (Ashen Verdict) or fun and useful items (Argent Tourney). Remember the Pony Saddle that upgraded your Argent Squire/Gruntling to be able to give you bank access? I still use it on my main to this day.

    Best of all, you could progress your character's power level at your own pace, not just log in, do your LFRs and dailies and then not touch that character for the rest of the week. I still have loads of characters at 80 that I enjoyed playing.

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