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  1. #1

    So we all hate Inquisition but maybe ...

    Inquisition sucks. There's no real way around it, it's a maintenance buff that even now that they've changed it to last a minute is still a pain in the ass.

    Then today I was reading the front page and it had this quote:

    Personally, maintaining %dmg buffs is not interesting gameplay. There's a reason ISF got cut from Destro.
    It depends on *how* you maintain it. If it just happens, it's just rampup. If your rotation molds around it, it can be cool/fun. (Celestalon)
    So that got me thinking about Inquisition. Currently we ramp up to 3 HP, then feel like jerks since we have to spend that first 3 on inquisition rather than hit someone in the face with a TV.

    What if instead inquisition ramped up based on holy power spent total? Like for every 3 HP spent you gained a 15 second buff that increased your holy damage by 30% and crit chance by 10%, stacks up to 4 times with each stack adding 15-seconds to the buff.

    Seems a bit more fun to me.

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Eh? Seems like like Fire Mage(I don't hate them just showing an observation). Might be a bit weird in PVP. I still want Inquisition to exist in some form but not as it is atm. Your idea while seems interesting but I am not 100% sure if I want that.
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  3. #3
    I've always been a fan that these abilities, including ones like mage's Invocation, Slice and Dice, Savage Roar and Inquisition should not be able to be maintained 100% uptime. They still could cost a resource, just they would have a cooldown to prevent their "maintenance".

  4. #4
    I don't have a problem with Inquisition as it is or as it was.
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  5. #5
    Epic! Zelk's Avatar
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    ISF was so much worse than inquisition now though. spamming incinerate and chaos bolt at 1.5s casts to a 2.3 SF was just terrible design. I still agree that it sucks to build up holy power and then not get a nice big number out of it.

  6. #6
    Inq is no prob at all. It's so easy to maintain

  7. #7
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xalzel View Post
    Inq is no prob at all. It's so easy to maintain
    It's not that much of a problem then it used to be say Cata. It's still somewhaet of an issue.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Xalzel View Post
    Inq is no prob at all. It's so easy to maintain
    Never said it wasn't easy to maintain, I said it was a pain in the ass.

    Much like laundry or the dishes, it's a maintenance thing, but the difference is that there's not really need for a "chore" to be such a huge part of the game.

    It's meant to be a way to add depth to your rotation, but instead it's like having an incontinent dog that you need to take for a walk once an hour or you've got pee all over the room.

    Which isn't to say that it can't be a skill check and that it wasn't added without reason - like most of our "ramp up" skills where it really shines is in PvP. Where you really have to make a choice about whether you're going to heal, damage or keep up a maintenance buff for more damage over the long run. I think with the 1-minute long inquisition they were aiming for that sweet spot between PvE maintenance doldrums and PvP dynamic choice, my personal opinion is that they missed it and would be better off rolling inquisition into a dynamic buff that really encourages you to get in and build pressure.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Never said it wasn't easy to maintain, I said it was a pain in the ass.

    Much like laundry or the dishes, it's a maintenance thing, but the difference is that there's not really need for a "chore" to be such a huge part of the game.
    So you're asking for a maid? ;)

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    I like Inquisition, I enjoy choosing to spend HP on a long-term investment instead of a knee-jerk burst damage dump every single time, and its upkeep is child's play compared to the awkward, frustrating clunkfest of Cataclysm.

    "We" don't all hate it, but I will concede that the people who do are very loud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Never said it wasn't easy to maintain, I said it was a pain in the ass.
    No it's not. You don't even know the concept of 'pain in the ass' when playing Ret — this is a very smooth, perky, pleasant DPS with minimal things to stress about. Inquisition is an incredibly gentle requirement.

  11. #11
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    I like Inquisition, I enjoy choosing to spend HP on a long-term investment instead of a knee-jerk burst damage dump every single time, and its upkeep is child's play compared to the awkward, frustrating clunkfest of Cataclysm.

    "We" don't all hate it, but I will concede that the people who do are very loud.
    I agree on that. I still don't like it. It just sounds cool. It needs to be something else.
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  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    What if instead inquisition ramped up based on holy power spent total? Like for every 3 HP spent you gained a 15 second buff that increased your holy damage by 30% and crit chance by 10%, stacks up to 4 times with each stack adding 15-seconds to the buff.
    Are you saying that all the effects stack up to 4 times (120% Holy damage and 40% Crit??) or that it's always the base Inq effect, with 15s being added every time you perform a finisher?

    If the latter, you're describing something very similar to Assassination's Cut to the Chase. And it's very boring, and makes Mut Rogues ask: "Why do we even have S&D as a button?" Because it just ... happens, while you're hitting buttons anyway, with no real choices involved except for the odd situation where you deliberately Envenom too early to keep S&D from falling (rarely happens in practice).

    I mean it's not "bad" from a design perspective, but I don't understand how this adds anything more dynamic or engaging to Inq because you're not making any choices — you do what you would have done anyway (slap TV when it lights up), and then a passive buff you pay no attention to appears and makes you automatically better.

    If the former (although I doubt this is what you mean), I'm not sure you really want to be balanced around maintaining a 15s buff that increases Crit chance by 40%.

  13. #13
    If inquisition was removed, majority of people would complain that retribution is a boring spec (and if you think it's boring right now, why do you even play it?). It needs things like inquisition to stay interesting, even if it's just another weakaura to track. There are situations where refreshing it early and/or not refreshing it instantly is a dps increase, so it's not like the button is just here to be refreshed once it hits 2/1/0 seconds.

    I can see it being removed in WoD though. 250% holy damage from templar's verdict being buffed by 30% and then added mastery on top of that seems ridiculous. It's as if the final verdict talent was made with Inquisition not being a thing in mind.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by etsumii92 View Post
    I can see it being removed in WoD though. 250% holy damage from templar's verdict being buffed by 30% and then added mastery on top of that seems ridiculous. It's as if the final verdict talent was made with Inquisition not being a thing in mind.
    A talent option might be the way to get rid of Inquisition, similar to the Savage Roar proposal for Druids — work the Inq bonus passively into something else as one option, but leave the gameplay in for people who don't mind it or like it.

    This was the kind of thing they wanted to exploit for talents for. DK resource tier is a good example. It didn't work out 'great', but more-or-less it allows people who like management to manage, and people who don't to just pick the passive and do their thing, without forcing everyone to accept either option exclusively.

    Actually, even a glyph that does what @Shelly is proposing — takes Inq away as a button but makes TV apply it automagically for a much shorter duration — might be enough if it's tuned to be a legitimate choice between putting Inq up for a long reliable time vs. needing to strike something to trigger it every time you get out of melee for too long. Trade-offs, everyone's 'happy'.

    You have the advantage of Inq doing damage basically (vs. 3 HP spent on spreadsheet vapors), but the disadvantage that you can't throw it up and rely on it being there for every opening strike from then on (since the 15s duration will drop off frequently). Tweak the numbers right and it would come out as a playstyle choice.

    Although, in a hypothetical training dummy/Patchwerk I can't see any reason not to glyph it, which may be a problem.
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2014-02-27 at 03:04 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    So that got me thinking about Inquisition. Currently we ramp up to 3 HP, then feel like jerks since we have to spend that first 3 on inquisition rather than hit someone in the face with a TV.
    You could get the pvp set and spam flash of light before pulls, lets you pop Inquisition right off the pull and then use one CS and theres your TV in the face . I love doing that lets me go hard right on the pull with all my cds/prepot.

  16. #16
    I personally like it as it is, but I could see it being cut honestly, because of the ability bloat thing.
    Although I liked it best when you could use it as a tank honestly.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Are you saying that all the effects stack up to 4 times (120% Holy damage and 40% Crit??) or that it's always the base Inq effect, with 15s being added every time you perform a finisher?

    If the latter, you're describing something very similar to Assassination's Cut to the Chase. And it's very boring, and makes Mut Rogues ask: "Why do we even have S&D as a button?" Because it just ... happens, while you're hitting buttons anyway, with no real choices involved except for the odd situation where you deliberately Envenom too early to keep S&D from falling (rarely happens in practice).

    I mean it's not "bad" from a design perspective, but I don't understand how this adds anything more dynamic or engaging to Inq because you're not making any choices — you do what you would have done anyway (slap TV when it lights up), and then a passive buff you pay no attention to appears and makes you automatically better.

    If the former (although I doubt this is what you mean), I'm not sure you really want to be balanced around maintaining a 15s buff that increases Crit chance by 40%.
    The latter, where it's just the baseline effect but it adds to the buff duration. Could make it so that it stacks up to the current buff level and duration as well, at that point it's really a PvP thing more than a PvE thing since Blizz would be wanting to decide on the length of ramp-up time required to maximum theoretical damage.

    What it adds in the way of dynamics is just cutting down on button bloat - not that Ret has ever been all that bloaty.

    Here's the thing, if you have an ability that you have to constantly keep up at all times, that you know everyone will be keeping up, that I'd even go so far as to say most of the class population has almost automated with timers. Then why have it as an activated ability?

    There are many ways that inquisition could be made just more interesting:
    Change it into a stacking debuff that is applied with judgments.
    Make it a debuff that's applied through an actual attack so it feels less blah.
    Make the buff much stronger but only last for say 10s and put it on a 30s cooldown.
    Give consecrate back to Ret, bake the inquisition effect into it so that enemies inside are debuffed while taking minor holy damage.

    What it comes down to is inquisition is a boring ability and has been since introduction. There are a ton of ways to make it not-boring, the easiest of which is to tie it into a damage dealer. My opinion is even that is throwing in some middle-management so why not just straight up put it as a debuff built into holy-power expenditure?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I don't have a problem with Inquisition as it is or as it was.
    The only problem I have with inquisition is that it's not interesting gameplay. It's not difficult or cumbersome by any means, but it's also not interesting. It's just what you do.

    For instance, on my DK I put up diseases to increase damage, which is effectively the same thing, but it's more interesting gameplay.

    While inquisition isn't broken or bad or anything like that, they could do something with it to make it more interesting.

  19. #19
    First of all, I don't hate inquisition, and I don't think anything particularly needs to be changed.

    From what i understand, your suggestion is that inquisition should still be an ability we have to activate, and should still (ultimately) last a minute, but now it falls off early if we aren't spending holy power on something during the duration? Pretty sure all this would do is increase the major downside of inquisition currently, which is how annoying it is to keep up during down time.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajikami View Post
    First of all, I don't hate inquisition, and I don't think anything particularly needs to be changed.

    From what i understand, your suggestion is that inquisition should still be an ability we have to activate, and should still (ultimately) last a minute, but now it falls off early if we aren't spending holy power on something during the duration? Pretty sure all this would do is increase the major downside of inquisition currently, which is how annoying it is to keep up during down time.
    Using OP's example, you would lose it if you didn't spend any holy power, but it would keep itself up as long as you used holy power.
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