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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    Using OP's example, you would lose it if you didn't spend any holy power, but it would keep itself up as long as you used holy power.
    Well, OP wasn't very clear, but I think what he meant is that the duration can only get extended 3 times, for a total of 1 min. I can't imagine what else the "stacking up to 4 times" would mean, since I doubt he actually means the benefits would get multiplied by 4. Unless he means each application resets the duration, and also increases it by 15 sec, so you use it and it lasts 15 sec, then you use 3hp and it now has 30 sec left, then you use 3 more and it has 45 left, and then 3 more and it has a minute, and any more you spend just resets it to 1 minute. I'm not really sure what the advantage of that over making it last a minute from the start would be, other than overcomplicating things.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajikami View Post
    Well, OP wasn't very clear, but I think what he meant is that the duration can only get extended 3 times, for a total of 1 min. I can't imagine what else the "stacking up to 4 times" would mean, since I doubt he actually means the benefits would get multiplied by 4. Unless he means each application resets the duration, and also increases it by 15 sec, so you use it and it lasts 15 sec, then you use 3hp and it now has 30 sec left, then you use 3 more and it has 45 left, and then 3 more and it has a minute, and any more you spend just resets it to 1 minute. I'm not really sure what the advantage of that over making it last a minute from the start would be, other than overcomplicating things.
    By having it automatically activate with 15 seconds every time you spend holy power for SOMETHING
    So you could use all holy power for TV and get 100% Inq uptime.

    At least that's how I read it.
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  3. #23
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    I think Inquisition is a boring ability and really it's there "because" - they just had to find some way of introducing "depth" and ramp-up to Ret, and a maintenance buff is the easiest way to do that instead of reworking all our abilities so they have some sort of synergistic relationship. If they're cutting abilities, this should be the first thing to go.

    If not, then give it a short-medium cooldown (with shorter duration) that means it can't be up all the time. It's busy work that's neither fun nor interesting, but it could be if choosing when best to use it was some sort of consideration of the spec.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Actually, even a glyph that does what @Shelly is proposing — takes Inq away as a button but makes TV apply it automagically for a much shorter duration — might be enough if it's tuned to be a legitimate choice between putting Inq up for a long reliable time vs. needing to strike something to trigger it every time you get out of melee for too long. Trade-offs, everyone's 'happy'.
    And what happens to this forum once you get to a fight like galakras or spoils? Or immerseus heroic? Any fight where you want to divine storm you are heavily punished by this playstyle, and people would come to forums about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    There are many ways that inquisition could be made just more interesting:
    Change it into a stacking debuff that is applied with judgments.
    Make it a debuff that's applied through an actual attack so it feels less blah.
    Make the buff much stronger but only last for say 10s and put it on a 30s cooldown.
    Give consecrate back to Ret, bake the inquisition effect into it so that enemies inside are debuffed while taking minor holy damage.
    If it stacks by judgment, any aoe fight and/or fight where you need to stop dps will heavily punish you.
    If it's a debuff, any fight with more than one target and/or the need to stop dps will heavily punish you.
    If you make the buff stronger, pvp would suffer insanely (For people who are gonna reply CC. How long can you keep a paladin in a CC? Also, Bubble --> CDS+massive buff --> cancelaura bubble macro'd into TV --> 1shot cya)
    Bake it into consecrate and any fight with movement will be your bench duty.


    I honestly don't see what's bad with the current model of inquisition.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by etsumii92 View Post
    And what happens to this forum once you get to a fight like galakras or spoils? Or immerseus heroic? Any fight where you want to divine storm you are heavily punished by this playstyle, and people would come to forums about it.
    Well, yeah, you have to find a point where not wasting 3 HP on 'nothing' every X seconds is break-even or better than spending 3 HP for ST damage when you'd rather spend it on AoE. That's a tuning issue.

    I'd be leery of giving it to DS also since that's basically making it literally passive at all times. Making it tied to TV is basically saying: "Okay, you can do damage when applying Inq, but it won't always be exactly what you want". Which is similar to current Inq — sometimes you'd rather have damage now but you have to back off and rebuff instead.

    Warriors don't always take Storm Bolt or glyph Unending Rage but it still exists, it's still useful, and there's people who like the style. At least expanding it that much is better than right now, where some people (like me) are perfectly happy with Inq but others have been seriously displeased with its inclusion for 2 xpacs running.

    To make clear, I don't care. I've never had an issue with Inq, not even the clunky Cata version. In fact I only started playing Ret in Cata (was Prot/Holy exclusively before) because the HP & Inq changes made the style interesting to me finally.

    But I also think the class is better off when more people are happy and comfortable playing it, especially if you can find a way to do so without hurting anything. This is the intended domain of Talents / Glyphs, so why not capitalize on it?

  6. #26
    Inquisition is pretty boring, most melee have a similar upkeep mechanic but the difference is most (other than savage roar) they are indirect rather than a straight "Damage %". Tiger Power gives armor penetration, slice n dice gives attack speed, in some ways even a DK's bleeds or Shaman's Searing Flames could be seen as a similar buff.

    %damage is boring, moreso when you need to build up 3 to 5 resource just for that.

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    I've already got accustomed with such buffs, but if I were to choose I would remove them. When I still played ret, Inquisition felt kinda eh (before they buffed it to 1 min duration). Same goes for Savage Roar, Tiger Palm and Incanter's Ward/Invocation

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Here's the thing, if you have an ability that you have to constantly keep up at all times, that you know everyone will be keeping up, that I'd even go so far as to say most of the class population has almost automated with timers. Then why have it as an activated ability?
    Because you can't just press the Inq button and magically get the buff, you have to spend something valuable to maintain it which involves choices about when, why, and how.

    You TV every time you hit 5 HP. Why have a button for TV? You should just automatically do a burst of damage every time you cap HP, because that's what happens anyway, right?

    Or look at GoAK. If this had no CD, you'd press it every time it ran out because it has no cost so why would you ever not press it? But it does have a CD, a long one, so you think slightly more about when to use it based on what's happening around you and what you know is coming next.

    There are many ways that inquisition could be made just more interesting:
    Change it into a stacking debuff that is applied with judgments.
    Make it a debuff that's applied through an actual attack so it feels less blah.
    Make the buff much stronger but only last for say 10s and put it on a 30s cooldown.
    Give consecrate back to Ret, bake the inquisition effect into it so that enemies inside are debuffed while taking minor holy damage.
    A stacking Judgement debuff would be more irritating than anything you have now, it would string-out your rampup even more. A debuff would be infuriating every time you have to switch targets.

    A short-duration CD will find the same complaints; look at Healing Stream Totem or Tiger's Fury (Feral). Short CDs you just slap on CD because they're too short to risk 'holding' (you almost guarantee fewer uses per fight) and they're not powerful enough to justify pulling out at exclusive moments. You'll see the same complaints: "Why do we even have this? It's boring and we just hit it every time it lights up".

    As @etsumii92 said, GTAoE is only fun in a world where Tanks never move things. Critical rotation buffs applied through GTAoE will not make you a happy Paladin in practice. >.<

    What it comes down to is inquisition is a boring ability and has been since introduction. There are a ton of ways to make it not-boring, the easiest of which is to tie it into a damage dealer. My opinion is even that is throwing in some middle-management so why not just straight up put it as a debuff built into holy-power expenditure?
    I just don't understand this viewpoint. Not having HP / Inquisition made Ret about hitting everything that lit up in the correct order, it was like playing Enhance Shaman. The effects of Inq itself may be simplistic, but adding it into the cycle has only made Ret more interesting.

    Not rhetorical: Do you really think Ret would be more fun if it was strictly CS/JG/EXO > TV > REPEAT? Does cutting "and Inq sometimes" out of that actually sound better to you? If yes, I'm surprised, but I guess everyone has different tastes.

    I mean, OK. Let's say when you activate Inquisition you also causes a dazzling flash of Holy energy to radiate out from you and sear nearby enemies with your awe-inspiring brilliance. But it does less damage than TV / DS so it's just a perk of refreshing Inq.

    Is it unboring now?
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2014-02-27 at 04:03 AM.

  9. #29
    Elemental Lord Chickat's Avatar
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    Eh i used to hate in inq, but i dont mind it any more. I dont care if it goes or stays tbh.
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  10. #30
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I
    mean, OK. Let's say when you activate Inquisition you also causes a dazzling flash of Holy energy to radiate out from you and sear nearby enemies with your awe-inspiring brilliance. But it does less damage than TV / DS so it's just a perk of refreshing Inq.
    I thought maybe Inquisition could have a certain CD but when you use it(The crit and holy damage would be pushed baseline but Inquisition would do something else) and you have a full stack of censure it does a giant Nuke and takes the 5 stacks doing X damage. Yeah probably not that great but it's what I thought of off the bat <.<
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  11. #31
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    I would prefer if Inquisition had some sort of decision-making involved in it, instead of just "press every 30 seconds". Granted, a lot of abilities can be incorrectly summed up as that (TV is just "press every 5 HP"), so it's likely I'm phrasing it wrongly. I feel it's currently like those old 1/2/3/4/5% more damage talents.

    Make Inquisition do something interesting that allows us to decide whether to spend it on an extra TV, or whatever it is the hypothetical Inq does. Right now, it's not a choice or decision to keep it up; you have to do it to be a good dps. Something like "the next 3 specials within X seconds does Y". Or "Next HP generator gains one extra HP." Something that allows us to make a tactical decision.

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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Not rhetorical: Do you really think Ret would be more fun if it was strictly CS/JG/EXO > TV > REPEAT? Does cutting "and Inq sometimes" out of that actually sound better to you? If yes, I'm surprised, but I guess everyone has different tastes.

    I mean, OK. Let's say when you activate Inquisition you also causes a dazzling flash of Holy energy to radiate out from you and sear nearby enemies with your awe-inspiring brilliance. But it does less damage than TV / DS so it's just a perk of refreshing Inq.

    Is it unboring now?
    Yes I do think it would ret rotation/ priority more interesting without inquisition in there as it currently exists.

    I used to be a straight "well throw it in the fire, we don't need it!" Guy, but that was before they extended it to 1-minute. Now I really get the idea of wanting a trade off and some ramp up, but inquisition is a rather boring way to do it. We have the exact same priority as everything only with a button we hit once a minute. Whoop te do.

    So really that button could just go away and I'd be fine with that and fold our ramp up into something else.

    As for my example, maybe here's a better way to put it:
    You hit 3-HP, and so you use an HP spender. TV, DS or even WoG, doesn't matter.
    Buff comes up, 30% more holy damage, 10% crit, 15-seconds.
    You gain 3 more HP.
    Use an HP spender.
    Buff stacks to 2, 30% more holy damage, 10% crit, 30-seconds.
    Repeat
    30/10/45-seconds
    repeat
    30/10/1-minute
    You go again and spend another 3-HP.
    30/10/1-minute, you're now at max stacks.

    So it's pretty much the same as it currently exists only with the ability to cram out an additional DS, TV or 3-HP WoG each minute.

    And no Lovestar, current rotation isn't boring. I actually like the balance that they've struck between single target and AoE. It's highly streamlined and makes sense - still wish hammer could happen without a target but hey, that's life for ya eh?

    However I find the inquisition mechanics to be just boring. I find most of the active-passive DPS increase skills to be boring though. On some classes I do think they can be a major skillcheck, such as slice and dice for a rogue whose abilities come a lot faster and have a more intense resource management game than paladins. But for paladins it's just not a skill check, it's a minor roadblock.

    I think it would be far more interesting as something that gave you not only that long term benefit but an immediate reward as well.

  13. #33
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    I would prefer if Inquisition had some sort of decision-making involved in it, instead of just "press every 30 seconds". Granted, a lot of abilities can be incorrectly summed up as that (TV is just "press every 5 HP"), so it's likely I'm phrasing it wrongly. I feel it's currently like those old 1/2/3/4/5% more damage talents.

    Make Inquisition do something interesting that allows us to decide whether to spend it on an extra TV, or whatever it is the hypothetical Inq does. Right now, it's not a choice or decision to keep it up; you have to do it to be a good dps. Something like "the next 3 specials within X seconds does Y". Or "Next HP generator gains one extra HP." Something that allows us to make a tactical decision.
    Sounds better then my idea or what I've seen.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    It's not that much of a problem then it used to be say Cata. It's still somewhaet of an issue.
    No. It was a little bit annoying during cata, but since one charge grants 20 seconds of duration it's fine.

  15. #35
    i hate inquisition and would like to see it gone, or just a passive or something. i'd rather spend that holy power on another templar's verdict.

  16. #36
    Inquisition is the sole thing preventing me from playing Ret more. I absolutely loathe "use X ability to do the normal damage you should be doing anyway" buffs. Anything around 60 seconds with this kind of mechanic is incredibly clunky.

  17. #37
    I dont really hate Inquisition now that its a 1 minute buff. If it somehow could be worked into an ability so we dont have to spend HP on it, i wouldnt complain tho :P

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    The only problem I have with inquisition is that it's not interesting gameplay. It's not difficult or cumbersome by any means, but it's also not interesting. It's just what you do.
    Can you show me any class' "rotation" that is "interesting" and not just "what you do"? Because I can't think of any offhand. Your rotation, almost by definition is just "what you do", procs included. The only 'interesting' thing I can immediately think of is Spell Steal and Dark Simulacrum, where when you pull it off you sit there with smug contentment at being able to punish the enemy with his own abilities, though I swear, I play anyone else and spells never get interrupted, I play my DK and interrupts everywhere!
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  19. #39
    Pandaren Monk Issalice's Avatar
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    I haaaate inq. I really do. I have always enjoyed the pally rotation but inq just sucks. They have improved it massively I must say, so I pretty shelved my hate for now.

  20. #40
    "I hate having to keep a GCD open for Tigereye Brew. I'd much rather use another jab, Tiger's Palm, Rising Sun Kick, Blackout Kick or Fists of Fury." That's what you all sound like. The closest thing to Inq is SnD/Savage Roar which is the exact same situation. You'd rather be doing a different finisher. Well of COURSE you do, finishers put big flashy numbers on your screen. You also forget that just by having that Buff up you increase your long term DPS, and your minimum baseline. It comes as a trade off, a burst of damage then and a increase in overall dps, or keeping your dps curve smooth with no drop off.

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