Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
... LastLast
  1. #101
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    3,058
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    How about "uninteresting?" Is that better than saying boring?
    I apologize if my post came off as semantic masturbation; the point I was trying to make is that I find it really weird that pressing 1 button is "fun" but another is "boring" even though they're nearly identical in every way save for a number popping up.

    If that's a legit issue for you, that's cool. Everyone has their particular gameplay quirks, I'm loud and outspoken about most of my 'feel' issues in both WoW and every other game.

    To be honest, if you personally think Inq is "boring" well, you're entitled to that since gaming is a subjective experience. What I was trying to convey (and more-or-less failed to do so properly) is that just saying "INQ IS BAD BECAUSE IT IS SO BORING" and then moving on, as many forum arguments tend to go since the dawn of Holy Power, is totally unproductive and unhelpful because it's basically saying nothing.

    It's like saying "Inq is just terrible because the icon is a shape". ... Uh. Little more to go on? Please? :p (@Shelly I'm not specifically referring to your posts, you've gotten fairly detailed about what frustrates you and that is productive)

    Really?

    You're going to play the "well it's just a game and everything you do is boring anyway if you look at at the right perspective ..."
    Nah, that was meant to be intentionally absurb to try to put in context how "INQ IS BAD BECAUSE IT'S BORING" is ~useless without further personal/subjective context for devs to go on.


    And no, it's nothing like that. It's more like saying "My boss will pay me 25% more each paycheck if every 5th paycheck I deposit the whole thing into the bank."

    Yeah, that's awesome and sweet and no one would ever NOT do that, which is kind of the point. If there's no tension there and we all do it then why have the skill?
    Hm. Actually, in that example I can conjecture many situations where people might renege on that deal due to poor planning, unexpected situations, budgetary tactics, etc. despite the ideal being to always aim for 100% uptime on 25% extra paycheck. Which, really, is what the "Inq has depth" crowd argues.

    But honestly while the subtlety is there with Inq refreshes, that's not unique to Inq, it's unique to any mechanic which requires decision or timing. Methodically-minded people like that will always be processing those number streams during their content clears, no matter what set of tools you give them to do it with.

    I think though, they don't want to go back to a time where there was no set of tools to game, tweak, and feel self-satisfied about being clever with (however tiny the gain), and there's a lingering sense that going "NO MORE INQ" will spiral Ret backwards in time if Blizz listens.

    Thankfully I think we can be sure that Blizz is past that design point philosophically, so if Inq does go (regardless of my feelings about that possibility) it's basically guaranteed some other mechanical consideration will replace it. Whether that will feel worse than Inq once the dust settles, haha...

  2. #102
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    My Throne
    Posts
    6,432
    Lots of faith in here. History shows though that when beta launches that we need to show no mercy in how broken / bad I expect ret to play with the new secondaries / limited gear customization options.

    And just as the cycle has happened 5 times before ret wll be one of the last classes to have a balance pass on it. Likely the week of release and we will drown in mediocrity until they find the "Unforseen consequences" and awful damage they were told about 10,000 times within beta.

    It's coming prepare your anus. Removal of Inqu <UNLESS ITS A PASSIVE> is the first step to completely fucking up the entire spec and it's scaling.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Having ONE or possibly TWO maintenance style mechanics to your dps rotation/build should be seen MORE if you ask me. by "maintenance" I mean dots, hots and temp buffs. Tankadins keep up Eternal Flame on themselves for example, I seriously don't understand the hate towards the type of mechanic. Yes it's not "fun" but it's something you do that's expected of you to manage properly to play "correctly", if you feel ret has a problem of not having enough abilities that you decide how and when to use then complain about that and not Inquisition which is 100% perfectly designed imo.
    The difference is in choice. Yes, a tankadin can and should keep up eternal flame, but what about those times when they have to make a choice of which will be better eternal flame or shield of the righteous? Do you go for the heal now or do you wait a bit to get the largest buff possible before using it?

    There is NO CHOICE involved with inquisition.

    DoTs and debuffs, both have choice involved: Do you hit CS now or wait because the foe is almost dead and save it for your next fresh foe or are you about to hit a burn phase or lust is about to be popped? When's the best time to hit it to capitalize on the damage?

    Mages, do you make that choice to stand for your buff or is it better to keep moving? Are you about to enter a movement phase of the fight where it would be untenable to maintain the buff?

    Rogues, is it worthwhile to try and keep SnD up for trash - because you are talking about trash here make no mistake about that - or should you just let it fall off? In cases of adds on a boss how quickly do those adds need to come down? Can you envenom on the boss before swapping? Is it better to stay on the boss and just let ranged take care of them?

    Warlocks, I'm presuming you're talking about drain life? (Sorry, don't know much about warlocks, I tend to prefer melee to ranged and plate because I like to be able to take a hit or two.) In that case your channeled debuff is depending on your spec is always damaging the enemy, generating life and generating a secondary resource by expending your primary. Pretty sure it only falls under your idea of a "maintenance ability" by virtue of being a DoT. You could make a far better case for something like curse of enfeeblement or curse of elements but if I remember correctly both of those debuffs can be applied passively by other classes so they are seldom used.

    Here's a couple things I consider to be "fun".
    Divine Purpose - It's "fun" that you can decide to use it as soon as it procs or delay it a few seconds to use it when a pack of adds spawn. I also think it's "fun" that you can use it for single target or aoe. What I don't like about Divine Purpose is that it's 100% RNG and it's a nightmare to balance properly and you're always saying to yourself "man I could really use a proc now".
    Indeed. I love DP and always roll with it, I like it myself because it's very forgiving too. Last time I did some testing I had better DPS with the other options but just really hated the playstyle.

    Consecration, like I mentioned in another thread or earlier in this thread.
    7 sec duration, 15sec cd. Every use of 3 holy power increases duration of Consecration by 2 seconds (up to a max of 6).
    In this model you'd have to chose when your Consecration is most effective and you'd have to somewhat plan your holy power use to extend the duration as long as possible until the next time Consecration is off cooldown.
    It could and I think most Ret's would love to have consecration back. It may actually be too powerful a tool though with the amount of adds that are sprung on us these days. Then again 4-Piece SoO has us spinning around so much it probably should have been called Fergie's set of Righteous Lumps. (No one will get that joke and that makes me sad.)

    Again, those two are examples on how to add what I personally would classify as "fun" and interesting gameplay with choices to make. Neither of them would touch Inquisition because Inquisition is NOT the problem.
    No one has yet to demonstrate to me how Inquisition is an interesting, engaging and strong choice. There's been a lot of folks saying "Well I could take it or leave it, just as long as if it goes we don't lose the damage." There's been some "I like having the buff. I enjoy the gameplay of keeping up the buff and feel that my maintenance proves that I'm good at playing my class." And there's also been some "It can die in a fire. A fire made of orphans." (Yay! Hyperbole! But seriously, orphan fire, think about it.)

    Ret is probably the most streamlined of all the classes these days as far as gameplay goes and ease of understanding the priority. However it does lack a dynamic choice as far as inquisition goes and with the introduction of timers and auras in Cat there's not the same reward factor as there was in say Affliction-BC where a highly complicated rotation managing multiple debuffs and DoTs was rewarded with significantly better DPS.

    It's just too easy right now to borderline automate formerly complicated rotations so things like maintenance buffs are no longer the line between the good and the great, but instead just a chore. Let's keep the chore part of the game where it belongs - professions, leveling, to a lesser extent the AH - and keep them out of combat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    people don't see the "fun" of just being forced to hit a button because it's bad if you don't, if it had a 30sec duration and 1min cd people would be happy for some unknown reason. When I say "people" I mean those who (imo) don't understand the need and value of mainetnance buffs/debuffs.
    Plenty of people understand the need and the value of the buff. Maybe I and the many others who aren't thrilled with Inquisition would be happier if it produced a second set of numbers that popped up from every hit so we could better quantify the value? But doubtful, the problem isn't that the value isn't recognized it's that the value is stale and without meaning.

    It's the same value that a full tank of gas has. You can only go X-miles before filling up again. You have a fixed benefit for a fixed amount of time and need to maintain that or lose benefit.

    Now compare that to say a Nitrous booster, again you have a fixed benefit for a fixed amount of time but now because it's more tightly limited it becomes more interesting as to when you push that button and choose to go faster. Do you do it on this hill that you're having problems with? Is it worthwhile to pop it right now even though there's a curve coming up? If you do it here will a cop see you fly by at 125-mph and bust you?

    There's the difference for you. I'm sure there are a ton of folks out there who LOVE filling up their gas tank. That look forward to that tuesday stop off at the service station and the mediocre hot-case burrito they have to snack on while standing next to their vehicle nonchalantly holding the pump trigger. But I bet there are more folks that wish that they were on a desolate strip of road in Montana, nothing in sight but sagebrush and a big red button on their dash marked "GO JUICE!"

    Pretty much at this point what it's come down to is that Inquisition is essentially mana and it's just not interesting.

  4. #104
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Norway, Trondheim
    Posts
    5,604
    But Inq does produce a different number that pops up, Hand of Light, it makes HoL 30% bigger or more in some cases.
    You can add complexity and things like that with other spells if you think ret is dull, someone has yet to come up with a reason to WHY everything has to be a meaningful desision, back when Inq was 30s you'd often refresh early because X was gonna happen. You still do but far less because ppl crowd that it was annoying to keep up with a 30sec duration. Now that you got your way with a longer duration you're bitching because it doesn't give you a sense of choice. Turn it back down to a 30s duration? Would that give you a better sensation of "yes I did something!" Then let me ask, why not keep Inq and ADD a new ability that fills your need to feel special when you hit it.
    Again, I understand that Inq doesn't feel like fun. Lots of things aren't fun in this game, does that mean all those things are bad?
    9thorder.com | 14/14 Heroic 25-man | West 114 | Recruiting for Warlords of Draenor!

    Follow our raids on Twitch!Bear - Retribution PoV

  5. #105
    I find Inquisition to be rather interesting. It just adds to the specc, in my opinion. Do you find Execution Sentence more interesting than Inq? Especially now that with WoD dot snappshotting is going away?

    Hell, is Crusader Strike in itself such an interesting ability? Welp, it does damage... and... you press it pretty often... so uh... is that... so much more interesting? I don't feel any different between pressing CS or Inq. Both serve their purpose, both have their place in our playstyle.

    I'd even go as far as to say that without Inq, we wouldn't even need Holy Power anymore. Why have Holy Power at all when you are not required to watch anything or watch your resources and are able to just press everything according to our priority list? Would be WotLK all over again. Please... no.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    But Inq does produce a different number that pops up, Hand of Light, it makes HoL 30% bigger or more in some cases.
    You can add complexity and things like that with other spells if you think ret is dull, someone has yet to come up with a reason to WHY everything has to be a meaningful desision, back when Inq was 30s you'd often refresh early because X was gonna happen. You still do but far less because ppl crowd that it was annoying to keep up with a 30sec duration. Now that you got your way with a longer duration you're bitching because it doesn't give you a sense of choice. Turn it back down to a 30s duration? Would that give you a better sensation of "yes I did something!" Then let me ask, why not keep Inq and ADD a new ability that fills your need to feel special when you hit it.
    Again, I understand that Inq doesn't feel like fun. Lots of things aren't fun in this game, does that mean all those things are bad?
    Yes, but that number is auto-folded into the damage that shows should you have your settings made for numbers to go flying across your screen.

    Why are you so attached to inquisition the the way it is now? In what ways do you feel it adds meaningful complexity to your priority list?

    As for the duration, I thought the spell was really lame at 30s, I think it's less annoying at 1-minute but I still don't see a reason for it to exist in the current Blizzard dogma of wanting meaningful choices.

    Given the lack of a meaningful choice in the usage of Inquisition I'd much rather see it scrapped and the damage baked into the class. Then you can replace it with something that does give a meaningful choice and trade off for the same resource cost. Also I'm fine with them revamping the ability to add that meaningful choice.

    And of course it doesn't mean those things are bad, I'd dare say that the majority of the things that are "not fun" are the reason people keep playing. Whether it be cruising around looking for resource nodes to gather or trawling trade chat to look for a PuG or Flex group, those are very boring things but they also keep you playing because they offer rewards in income and in the creation of community.

    However when it comes to true "maintenance" abilities, meaning abilities that only boost one thing, are required to be up constantly and have no tertiary effects of a short or long term nature (damage, run speed, attack speed, etc) then why should they be there as an activated ability? Why not make them passives?

    Want examples?

    Icy Talons.
    Sunder Armor.
    Blessings and other buffs. (Yes, not passives but if you want to go back to the days of needing 500+ emblems of kings in your inventory for raid night you're insane.)
    Paladin Auras - basically entirely removed and turned into more dynamic abilities that are now interesting rather than just sitting around and making sure you've got an armor buff and a damage on getting hit buff and a fast-cast buff.
    Demo-Shout - same as Paladin Auras, turned from a "oh crap, I gotta keep this damned thing up ..." to a "Big hit coming, better shout it out!"

    The list continues but I'm too tired to remember all the changes that they've made to fit their philosophy since LK came along and has only refined through Cat and MoP.

    So tell me, what is it about inquisition that you love so much and what is it that scares you about the possibility of them taking it away?

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    [...]
    Why are you so attached to inquisition the the way it is now? In what ways do you feel it adds meaningful complexity to your priority list?
    [...]
    Given the lack of a meaningful choice in the usage of Inquisition I'd much rather see it scrapped and the damage baked into the class. Then you can replace it with something that does give a meaningful choice and trade off for the same resource cost. Also I'm fine with them revamping the ability to add that meaningful choice.
    [...]
    However when it comes to true "maintenance" abilities, meaning abilities that only boost one thing, are required to be up constantly and have no tertiary effects of a short or long term nature (damage, run speed, attack speed, etc) then why should they be there as an activated ability? Why not make them passives?
    [...]
    So tell me, what is it about inquisition that you love so much and what is it that scares you about the possibility of them taking it away?
    It does not add that much complexity. However, you could apply that to everything. Do Wings add complexity? I just hit it whenever it's off cooldown and the enemy is worth the cooldown.

    " 'maintenance abilities' " as you said: Would you like Inq, if it wouldn't just increase your Holy Damage by a whopping 30% (oh and that negligible 10% crit btw), but also does other stuff? For example... 10% run speed? Now... then it would be the same all over again! *We have to have Inq up all the time because otherwise we run so slowly - come on, why not just make it passive... yada yada yada*.

    Please, don't understand me wrong. Inquisition could by all means have another effect, for example a cone like damage or whatever, wouldn't matter, but it has to stay.

    And I want to point the question back at you: Please do pray tell, what is it about Inq that you hate so much and what is it that scares you about the possibility of them keeping it?

    Answer: Well, we've heard it already - *It's boring*. Hm, rather weak argument if you ask me. Sorry, I don't mean to insult.

  8. #108
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Norway, Trondheim
    Posts
    5,604
    Maintenance buffs / debuffs are there to always require your attention, if they weren't there we'd just blindly do our rotation, which we already do but maintenance buffs / debuffs adds a layer of "Keep this or suffer".

    Why am I so scared of losing Inq?
    First of all I think it adds to our gameplay, doesn't mean "fun" but it's something to do and I wouldn't mind if it went back to 36sec duration.
    Second of all Ret is 100% scaled with Inq in mind. Crit buff aside it impacts every single spell and our stat priorities, remove that 1 spell (Inq) and blizzard would have to retune: mastery scaling, seal scaling, DS scaling, Judgement scaling, Exorcism scaling, Hammer of Wrath scaling, all the talents in the Execution Sentence tier and our level 100 talents. Not to forget that they would have to look on how we deal damage during CDs.
    That's a big list of things to do just because you removed one mechanic and I'm sure I missed a couple things.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2014-03-02 at 03:19 AM.
    9thorder.com | 14/14 Heroic 25-man | West 114 | Recruiting for Warlords of Draenor!

    Follow our raids on Twitch!Bear - Retribution PoV

  9. #109
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    My Throne
    Posts
    6,432
    To anyone who cannot comprehend why inqu is needed im typing this big and bold

    its not for complex, its not for im better then you.

    Inqu has to exist as a scaling factor goodbye inqu goodbye scaling.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by tristannarutofan View Post
    No warriors have to maintain deep wounds and apply colossal smash intelligently to do maximum damage.

    Aff warlocks have to channel their spell and make sure all 3 dots are on the enemy AND maintain a cast time spell that has to TRAVEL to the target and they only have 4 or so seconds to take advantage of that dps. now THAT is difficult. What is annoying is spending Demonic fury on transforming early to put on Doom because my dps is based on having BOTH doom and corruption on, and then having to turn back to start building up demonic fury because i have almost none at start of fight.

    Oh also you forgot the fact that Warriors have to BUILD their resources. takes a few seconds for Warriors to get some rage. Takes a fixed amount of seconds for paladins to get their inquisition up.

    Oh wait...but paladins can maintain a 40 second inquisition from 30 feet away (exorcism, judgement) while Warriors have to stay in melee range in order to keep their rage going.
    I never said keeping inquisition up was hard. I have no problem with it over all. It's just the fact that you have to build up the holy power to put Inquisition up and then manage it to still do bad sustained damage.

    If Retribution did good sustained damage and Inquisition was made to be a little more fun than just a mandatory temporary buff it would be fine in my opinion.

  11. #111
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Norway, Trondheim
    Posts
    5,604
    Wait, so you're saying that Inq would be fine if it increased holy damage to a point where it made us top 5 dps? Sorry but that's... yeah can't say that on forums but you know.
    9thorder.com | 14/14 Heroic 25-man | West 114 | Recruiting for Warlords of Draenor!

    Follow our raids on Twitch!Bear - Retribution PoV

  12. #112
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Antrim, Northern Ireland
    Posts
    5,767
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Wait, so you're saying that Inq would be fine if it increased holy damage to a point where it made us top 5 dps? Sorry but that's... yeah can't say that on forums but you know.
    Such demands have turned out fine for Mages. Arcane/Frost have been the #1/#2 DPS for several patches/expansions now.
    The first thing I remember about the world — and I pray that it may be the last — is that I was a stranger in it.” - Malcolm Muggeridge, Apologia pro vita sua (1968)

  13. #113
    I have no problems with Inquisition. What I do hate is seeing horrible Retribution Paladins never using it.

  14. #114
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    That one place
    Posts
    1,583
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Such demands have turned out fine for Mages. Arcane/Frost have been the #1/#2 DPS for several patches/expansions now.
    Yeah, well we aren't mages and have never been treated remotely as well as mages.
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    "NEENER-NEENER RETS ARE WIENERS."

  15. #115
    I have no probs with inq, its a Good Way to Play the retri, better as in wotlk

  16. #116
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    My Throne
    Posts
    6,432
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Such demands have turned out fine for Mages. Arcane/Frost have been the #1/#2 DPS for several patches/expansions now.
    Mages are shit in SoO what are you talking about.

    Sims dont = reality

  17. #117
    Pandaren Monk Lyese's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    1,913
    Inquisition has been a hot button topic for years now. In Cata, we could pretty much count on ~15s ramp up to even land a TV since DP (and, by extension, mastery) were shit. Now, the ramp up has been slowed a bit, but it cuts down on "instant gratification," i.e. building a resource and getting the payoff. Now, while game design indeed revolves around "press button get damage" and "delayed gratification," somehow I don't think it's a fantasy of most Paladin players to spend time powering up, especially when other classes get their gratification sooner. Blizz has baked in passive damage increases (Sanctity Aura) before, so there's indeed a precedent, but saying that they will abolish an ability that keeps us somewhat competitive without offering anything in return is really pessimistic. Then again, 3.0 happened.

    On a sidenote, why are so many people asking for DP to be baseline, anyway? Didn't we learn from Cata? So annoying.
    Sig/ava made by the amazing Elyssia! ♥

  18. #118
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    4,941
    I've never liked maintenance buffs because you keep them basically 100% anyways. Personally I'd rather see it baked into finishers, so it gets applied/refreshed as you do finishers rather than be something you have to keep up yourself. I'm in the minority though, since that "dumbs things down" and removes a button
    NOBLESHIELD
    <Meliora> of Turalyon-US
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator


  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Mages are shit in SoO what are you talking about.

    Sims dont = reality
    Mages are not shit. Just because it's not warlock dps doesn't make a dps class terrible.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  20. #120
    Well... original Warrior's shield block was hit every, what, 6 seconds?


    Kids these days.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •