Is a sound card worth it?

[Deleted]

Uhm Teksyndicate is showing a 350% fps difference between a 8350 & i5, that should say more than enough about their ignorance.

You're right when I post a video from someone I should make sure I've watched every single video they've ever created to make 100% they've never posted anything that is questionable or incorrect.

Also you need to learn to watch things, make a judgement for yourself and take everything you hear with a grain of salt and not just read the cover and then go "omg soundcards is waste? Troll channel... bla. bla."

Either way you still haven't presented me with anything that shows me they're just all out bad, spreading misinformation, mostly flawed etc.

By the way can you link me the video or post with the 350% fps difference that everyone knows about? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just wanna check it out.

Edit: I'm not really a fan of the channel, nor do I "hate" them or consider them a troll channel so I couldn't actually care less one way or the other. Also I'm not personally against soundcards (I have one one...) but to be fair some of the onboard sound from Z87 is on part with a lot of the cheaper solutions like the Xonar DGX. The built-in AMP is nice enough if you're lacking some volume/oomph and the in-line sound seem to be better. If I were to invest more into getting better sound I would probably aim for a FIIO10 DAC or something similar, their advice suggesting getting an AMP/DAC isn't bad, maybe slightly biased towards their own brand, who wouldn't be?

[Faithh]

You're right when I post a video from someone I should make sure I've watched every single video they've ever created to make 100% they've never posted anything that is questionable or incorrect.

Also you need to learn to watch things, make a judgement for yourself and take everything you hear with a grain of salt and not just read the cover and then go "omg soundcards is waste? Troll channel... bla. bla."

Either way you still haven't presented me with anything that shows me they're just all out bad, spreading misinformation, mostly flawed etc.

By the way can you link me the video or post with the 350% fps difference that everyone knows about? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just wanna check it out.

Edit: I'm not really a fan of the channel, nor do I "hate" them or consider them a troll channel so I couldn't actually care less one way or the other. Also I'm not personally against soundcards (I have one one...) but to be fair some of the onboard sound from Z87 is on part with a lot of the cheaper solutions like the Xonar DGX. The built-in AMP is nice enough if you're lacking some volume/oomph and the in-line sound seem to be better. If I were to invest more into getting better sound I would probably aim for a FIIO10 DAC or something similar, their advice suggesting getting an AMP/DAC isn't bad, maybe slightly biased towards their own brand, who wouldn't be?

I didnt bother to watch that video complety, there's no reason to watch that video if theyre the only special ones claiming soundcards don't make the difference other than placing a placebo in your head and for some reasons DACs make the difference.

If they cant even review cpu's then they shouldn't try to go against the majority of the net saying that soundcards are a waste.

Also he made two video's one with mp3 vs flac which was posted in the OP and the other about soundcards; I linked the wrong thread this is the one I meant -> http://www.overclock.net/t/1452181/t...are-crap/0_100

About that 350% difference -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4et7kDGSRfc @ 7:11 1440p results. Making claims that AMD is performing much better than Intel in games & saying soundcards are a waste makes you a bad source.

[Deleted]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...udio,3733.html

Toms Hardware article on the subject. I havent read it yet, but the end result is this: Onboard or high end dac, no difference in audio with 300Ohm headphones.

Already this is confirming what I've been saying and challenges people who say, like above, "with good speakers you hate onboard audio". Of course moving the goalposts a bit you could say "headphones are different", but I expect nothing less from audiophiles. I enjoy audio, high endish audio too. I have a 100$ dac running 400$ headphones and I cannot improve on the sound, except on the headphone side, but the price to performance ratio is already completely skewed with these headphones.

[Laysson]

1 - Buy a good headphones
2 - Instal DFX Audio Enhancer (http://www.fxsound.com/index.php?ven...=2&refer=dfx11)
3 - Enjoy.

[Deleted]

I didnt bother to watch that video complety

If you didn't bother watching it completely then don't bother commenting on the entire video as a whole and it's conclusion, simple. The DAC comment made it quite clear you didn't watch it either.

If they cant even review cpu's then they shouldn't try to go against the majority of the net saying that soundcards are a waste.

You have to take some of the things they say with a grain of salt and put it into perspective, it's not as simple as "No sound, omg it's a waste", again watching it you might have been able to understand. Again I haven't watched ALL their videos so please quit this "If they can't even review a CPU" argument, I'm sure you can find something about pretty much any Youtuber that they've claimed to be true but wasn't, does that make them all not credible?

I will watch the video just to please you though, make sure you bookmark it so you have easy access to your evidence next time. Also if I can find ANY post you've made on this forum where you were wrong, should we start ignoring your advice and claim you spread misinformation?

[sophos1]

Get a wireless usb headset. Soundcard is pointless unless you are using surround sound.

[Deleted]

For the love of god please don't listen to a word of Logan's video.

It's a load of bullshit Mayflower PR selling exercise. Any person clued on sound on specialist forums will tell you that, indeed my brother works for BeyerDynamics R&D division and he found it embarrassing. Go figure.

Hai my names Logan and I'll use 16bit downloaded samples of music from the internet to prove a point lulz.

Bottom line: If you have a good set of cans (read, not a 'gaming' headset) then go for a good quality DAC or a good soundcard like the Asus Essence STX.

If the person who is claiming that the video isn't BS is reading and wants to understand a bit more. Read the following thread: http://www.overclock.net/t/1452181/t...s-are-crap/120

and this post by a Head-Fi mod in response to Logan's video. If you're still not convinced go read between the lines of what Linus said in regards to Logan's video in one of his podcasts, forum posts and his previous sound reviews (NB: note that Linus has never claimed to be an expert in audio too though.)

That Teksyndicate video was a bit dissapointing.


First off though, there were a some good things mentioned, such as:
Avoid using the audio headers on the front of the case.
Using an external DAC/amp is preferable to an internal one (for noise reasons).
Try to find yourself a good pair of headphones instead of opting for an inexpensive gaming headset.
Use the optical out from the motherboard if you have it.


Unfortunately, most of the rest of the video was a bit misleading.

Soundcards

In order to automatically disqualify most soundcards they focus on WAY over exaggerating the effects of output impedance. He actually said that with a 10 ohm ouput impedance "1/3 of the signal is going to be GONE" and "1/3 of the music is being dropped". He cites output impedance like it's the determing factor in how good an amp is. I'd like to see them compare the E09K and O2 in a blind test. It should be incredibly easy to spot the E09K as it's dropping 1/3 of the music, right?

You guys said your going to be "busting as many audiophile myths as possible", but are you sure these statements on output impedance effects aren't just reinforcing or even creating new myths?



Next he says, YES soundcards have amps but why would you even need a dedicated amp when most headphones are only 32 ohms? Even the Hifiman HE500s are only 38 ohms! So these days you don't really need an amp, and your onboard audio will be just fine - even for the Hifimans. "These days most heapdhones are under 80ohms. That means they're efficient and they don't need extra power. Unless your nuts you don't need more power than that."

Hmm..are you sure your not neglecting to mention some things, like why low impedance ≠ easy to drive with headphones like Hifimans (and other Planars), Beyerdynamics, AKGs, etc?

Oh BTW, you should buy an O2 though! (please disregard everything just mentioned about NOT needing an amp).


DSPs

Throughout the video they basically skip over the WHOLE POINT of why you would use a gaming soundcard, which is for their DSP processing (such as CMSS, Dolby Headphone, SBX pro, etc). They say that your motherboard audio can do everything a gaming soundcard can do, and that using optical from a soundcard like a Xonar "is the same exact digital signal you'll get from your motherboard's optical out". Yeah - except one has has a surround DSP and the other doesn't.

Then he says "I guess the only benefit from using the soundcard is they can use the software that came with it. But that's all in Windows anyways, so..." O RLY? Windows already comes with Dolby Headphone, CMSS, and SBX Pro built in? Good to know.


They say it doesn't make any sense to use surround DSPs anyways if you have a good pair of headphones. Just use regular stereo and your brain will put everything into place! :blink: Sorry, I don't believe you. A quick 5 second test shows that a good surround DSP > basic stereo for 3D positioning. The vast majority of people who've tried both would agree.

Don't believe use? Just watch this binaural recording video. If you go to your game options and set the sound to "headphones" it will "take the signal and make it so it's binaural". :blink: I wish that were true. I wish selecting "headphones" = binaural audio in games. Maybe in the future that will be possible, but for now that's NOT the case. BTW, If anything that virtual barbershop video is an endorsement for USING surround DSPS and NOT using basic stereo.



I know they meant well with the video, but I think they created just as many myths as they busted.

The obvious irony of the whole video is that they start off saying that they're tired of the "audiophile snobbery" and that they're going to be getting rid of some of the snobbery in the audiophile world - but then they basically spout audiophile snobbery for the rest of the video.

He says that he only wants to get the most pure experience for gaming as the developers intended it, so NO surround sound DSPS, NO EQing, NO gaming headsets, and NO amps with ~10 ohm ouput impedance. They all color the sound, so all of them be damned. Ironically, those are exactly the sort of things an audiphile snob would say, and his "only pure and uncolored sound" viewpoint is about as snobbish as you can get.

He only want's the most pure experience, which is why he's getting an ODAC...for gaming.
Enjoy your "pure" gaming experience in basic stereo, and I'll enjoy my "colored" gaming experience in surround sound. I might even EQ in some bass!


Logan seems to be a little too gullible and easily influenced by what he's told regarding audio. While I'm glad that he's no longer brainwashed by the gaming companies, he's now simply brainwashed in the other direction by an audiophile company.

"I will never use another soundcard. I just want to be happy with my audio setup." He's left "ignorant gamer land" and has entered ignorant audiophile land instead. If ignorance is bliss though, he'll be happy either way.

Source: http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the-...und-sound/2220

[Deleted]

I thought it went without saying that we are talking stereo here. I'd like to hear exactly what gripes people have with Logan's video. I don't remember then content and cant be arsed to watch it again. Bottom line actually is: If you dont need extra knobs or features, stick with your integrated audio. It's just as good audio quality wise as expensive dacs.

Logan should get some HiFi advocate on his show to ABX DACs and file formats. Theres no point saying "cant hear a difference".

[Deleted]

I thought it went without saying that we are talking stereo here. I'd like to hear exactly what gripes people have with Logan's video. I don't remember then content and cant be arsed to watch it again. Bottom line actually is: If you dont need extra knobs or features, stick with your integrated audio. It's just as good audio quality wise as expensive dacs.

Logan should get some HiFi advocate on his show to ABX DACs and file formats. Theres no point saying "cant hear a difference".

The point is he's making the claim that soundcards suck irregardless and you should go out and buy a Mayflower DAC. When a DAC and a stereo soundcard like the Xonar Essence STX are basically one and the same. It's a logical fallacy to claim you don't need a soundcard but then to push a DAC.

I'd have less gripes with that video (excluding the inaccurate audio knowledge) if it was just "use onboard for gaming" rather than giving free marketing to Mayflower.

Claiming that in a blind test of a soundcard vs onboard (assuming a decent pair of cans) you won't hear a difference, yet you will with a DAC is hideously misinforming.

[Deleted]

The only way soundcards suck is that usually you dont have controls and inputs conveniently on your desk. That's why internal dacs make almost zero sense. But yeah, there can be no inherent audio difference.

[Deleted]

I've looked up your headphones OP, and it says their impendance is 150 Ohm. This means you will need an amp.
I suggest either buying a cheap independent headphone amp such as Behringer MicroAmp HA400 or just buy a cheap sound card with a built-in amp like xonar DG

[Deleted]

If they cant even review cpu's then they shouldn't try to go against the majority of the net saying that soundcards are a waste.

About that 350% difference -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4et7kDGSRfc @ 7:11 1440p results. Making claims that AMD is performing much better than Intel in games & saying soundcards are a waste makes you a bad source.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4et7kDGSRfc

0:46 "This is not a CPU review..."

The video is from January 2013, people change, people learn, people adapt. Still watching for your entertainment but if their opinion/claim is indeed wrong then yeah people make mistake.

2:12 - "Intel still better overall, as far as gaming goes it's really good"

~2:30 - "most of the benchmarks are about the same as other sites results, there are a few differences but we will explain"

~4:40 They're talking about having a Windows patch/hotfix installed that wasn't publically available at the time of filming, that might or might not have had some effect on some results.

As for the 7:11 part and the games before that, as stated AMD favored games. Secondly, if the results were indeed that different and other benchmarks from other sources don't show this big difference (I'm pretty sure they don't) then there were most likely something wrong, something that wasn't touched on in the video. Smilar stuff happens to other Youtubers like Linus:

~ 4:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICVeN6WEGgg

Now it's nowhere near the same difference % wise but it shows that sometimes you just can't explain what it is, maybe a new driver, new game, new patch etc. Linus did however do a better job at explaining and touching on the "error".

Alright so in conclusion, it's the similar to the sound card video, you clearly have a thing against this Tek channel and so you pick one thing and focus so much on it you don't see the big picture. Besides the anomaly I really don't see much wrong with their video but actually refreshing to see some "real gaming stuff" and not just synthetic benches telling you X and Y. The rest seems on par with what other "Youtuber, reviewer or whatever you call them" concludes.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I've looked up your headphones OP, and it says their impendance is 150 Ohm. This means you will need an amp.
I suggest either buying a cheap independent headphone amp such as Behringer MicroAmp HA400 or just buy a cheap sound card with a built-in amp like xonar DG

The Maximus VI Formula has a built-in 300 or 600 Ohm (can't remember which) amp.

[sophos1]

The point is he's making the claim that soundcards suck irregardless and you should go out and buy a Mayflower DAC. When a DAC and a stereo soundcard like the Xonar Essence STX are basically one and the same. It's a logical fallacy to claim you don't need a soundcard but then to push a DAC.

I'd have less gripes with that video (excluding the inaccurate audio knowledge) if it was just "use onboard for gaming" rather than giving free marketing to Mayflower.

Claiming that in a blind test of a soundcard vs onboard (assuming a decent pair of cans) you won't hear a difference, yet you will with a DAC is hideously misinforming.

I don't mean to sound like I'm defending the video, but I mean, if you actually watched the video, his main argument is that there is noise inside the case, which is why you want to extend the digital form of the audio signal to a more suitable environment before converting it to analog and sending it to your ears. Hence the reason for an external DAC via USB cable. That's why he's saying sound cards and on board sound are equivalently shit.

[Deleted]

The Maximus VI Formula has a built-in 300 or 600 Ohm (can't remember which) amp.

then either his headphones or motherboard are broken

[Deleted]

I don't mean to sound like I'm defending the video, but I mean, if you actually watched the video, his main argument is that there is noise inside the case, which is why you want to extend the digital form of the audio signal to a more suitable environment before converting it to analog and sending it to your ears. Hence the reason for an external DAC via USB cable. That's why he's saying sound cards and on board sound are equivalently shit.

Exactly but people like to reach, over analyze and jump to conclusions. Sure he is promoting Mayflower, wouldn't you if you if you owned, worked for, was sponsored by? Is it really that big of a deal? I didn't get the feeling that was the whole point of the video but opinions differs. Of course a forum like Head-fi is going to dissect the video, it's pretty much to be expected.

- - - Updated - - -

Watch this ~32:20, the Head-fi community is really going to like to sink their teeth into this one. 36:30 for the conclusion.

[Deleted]

I don't mean to sound like I'm defending the video, but I mean, if you actually watched the video, his main argument is that there is noise inside the case, which is why you want to extend the digital form of the audio signal to a more suitable environment before converting it to analog and sending it to your ears. Hence the reason for an external DAC via USB cable. That's why he's saying sound cards and on board sound are equivalently shit.

The difference is negligible, as I said. It's a logical fallacy to claim soundboards are bad, DACs = good on a trivial issue. That's excluding the completely wrong information in relation to others. The Mayflower guy needs to go back and relearn his knowledge on faraday cages amongst others. Any decent sound card will have adequate, if not the same, level of EMI shielding to the level of an external DAC in the same bracket.

The entire problem with the video is he claims to 'debunk audio myths' only to replace the myths with new myths of his own which serve only to make everyone rush out and buy a Mayflower DAC. Take for example the Xonar essence STX which is renowned for being better than the DACs in its category. The bottom line is you can't just say DACs are all superior.

It's also worth noting that DACs aren't immune from EMI problems.

[Deleted]

You're fishing for a conclusion from the Tek Syndicate video that isn't there.

Did you take the time to watch the above video and Linus comments and conclusions based on personal experience and the article from TomsH? There are time codes for the video so you don't even have to search through it.

Here is the article:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...udio,3733.html

He is promoting the use of DAC for good reasons and of course since he is from mayflower he is going to be showing that one off in the video, if you can't follow that logic then I'm sorry. He didn't claim that his DAC is the only option and you should never consider anything else. There is no drama or conspiracy, stop searching for it

[Faithh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4et7kDGSRfc
0:46 "This is not a CPU review..."

Lol watch the video complety before you're jumping to meaningless conclusions. If he's posting results from his tests with those cpu's then its a review or whatelse could it be?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4et7kDGSRfc
2:12 - "Intel still better overall, as far as gaming goes it's really good"

Thats what he read from the reviews.

- 12:50 "dont you think the amd & 7870 were a better pair?.. I think they would".
- 14:40 "if youre gaming and you dont mind the 17$ a year the AMD is a nobrainer".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu8Sekdb-IE

- 9:00 - 9:25 Says again its faster (9:16)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIVGwj1_Qno

- 3:50 - 4:05 "scores identical blabla theres a bottleneck somewhere else going on"

He complety has no clue where the bottleneck was while its so goddamn obvious its the gpu. You shouldnt listen to his soundcard video if he can't even review cpu's or determine a simple bottleneck. A kid of 12 years old can review cpu's >.>

He is promoting the use of DAC for good reasons and of course since he is from mayflower he is going to be showing that one off in the video, if you can't follow that logic then I'm sorry.

You're not following the right logic really; if Mayflower made soundcards as well they wouldn't bash soundcards like this, its a part of their marketing which any brand would do. Most people who would watch that video are ignorant if it comes down to audio stuff, pretty much theyre playing in their ignorance and filling their pockets.

I have to agree with you about that a cheap 30$ soundcard won't make much of a difference over onboard but neither a dac would. Get something expensive or just leave it.

[Deleted]

Lol watch the video complety before you're jumping to meaningless conclusions. If he's posting results from his tests with those cpu's then its a review or whatelse could it be?

I'm not jumping to conclusions, I was quoting what he said in the video as I was watching.

Thats what he read from the reviews.

That's what he gathered from their own results AND from reviews.

Like I told you I haven't watched ALL of his content nor do I really care to, unlike you that seem to be quite obsessed with debunking his credibility. The topic is about Sound Cards, we all make mistakes and I agree "Tek" is probably wrong about the whole CPU thing from a year ago. His own results for whatever reason showed different results compared to most other sites, maybe it's only AMD favored stuff, maybe the games are not maxed out, maybe he was just semi-clueless, oh well... shit happens.

You're not following the right logic really; if Mayflower made soundcards as well they wouldn't bash soundcards like this

High speculative, lets stick to the facts presented. they're not making sound cards, conspiracy theories are fun and all but usually don't have any real substance to them.

Most people who would watch that video are ignorant if it comes down to audio stuff

Lets not pretend you know exactly who is or isn't watching the videos, even if there is a possibility you're somewhat right. Get off your high horse please.

I have to agree with you about that a cheap 30$ soundcard won't make much of a difference over onboard but neither a dac would.

Actually I'm pretty sure we do not agree. If you're on a crappy motherboard (sound wise) and you're lacking volume/oomph or want a specific feature not present on the onboard then something like a cheap Asus Xonar is excellent because of it's built-in amp, improvement to the line-in.

I take it you ignored the conclusion from Linus/Toms because it didn't fit in the "Tek" credibility debunking based on his old videos? Because they're on par with "Teks" video and conclusions. Please no more comments about Mayflower, we should be beyond that point now.

- - - Updated - - -

It's pretty clear we are probably not going to change anyones (or very few) mind about the need for sound cards, DACs etc. but at least now you have some evidence of how little it means or what the differences are when comparing with newer, decent onboard sound as touched on by Linus and the tests by Toms. No point in me dragging the topic any further so I will refrain from posting more on this. If "you" wanna bash X, Y and Z by all means go for it, I'm just not taking part in it.