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  1. #61
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    First problem is to get required gear for Flex raiding.
    Untrue, you simply start your own flex group. Might be hard at first, but you'll eventually get a functional group together, the first section is basically LFR difficulty anyway.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    Every average normal/heroic raider knows their rotation, what makes top raiders top raiders is the team synergy. If you take 1 paragon raider and place him in some average raiding guild, he does not stand out and may even perform worse in that particular team because team just doesnt work together.
    You seem to think than when we talk about personal skill we are refering to rotation only. People like this cannot be argued with

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    I dont need LKHC25 achievement to understand that I have to listen raid leader and learn from mistakes.

    I have already explained why top guilds are as good as they are, its the teamwork not the fact that people know boss tactics or rotations.
    This is where I am going to tell you something. The guild you apply to know NOTHING about you and know NOTHING about your skill. This is why an application is important. Writing an amazing application (No, not going "I r teh bestest inv meh") is what gets a guild managements attention. You need to treat your application as if it was a job. Not only that, you need to convince the guild you genuinely want to join THAT particular guild.

    That being said. Teamwork is very important in being a great guild, but being able to adapt and do boss tactics as well as maximizing your performance is just as important. There's no point being a team if you can't meet an enrage timer/come up with a tactic that works for your guild. It's easy to copy, say, Method's tactics when your guild is ~10 ilvls above their average the first time they killed it because you don't need to compensate for less gear/the limit of your guilds players.


    Judging by your posts in this thread, and no offence, I wouldn't want to play with you. The key to a great guild is everyone being on the same page.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    You seem to think than when we talk about personal skill we are refering to rotation only. People like this cannot be argued with
    There isnt anything else "individual skill" than how to play your class, everything else is team work.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    Every average normal/heroic raider knows their rotation, what makes top raiders top raiders is the team synergy. If you take 1 paragon raider and place him in some average raiding guild, he does not stand out and may even perform worse in that particular team because team just doesnt work together.
    Incorrect, he'd still know his class better and it would show.

    Get in LFR, if you consistantly hold top 5 positions (dps) top 2 positions (healing) or don't screw up as tank, you likely have the skills for normal raiding. If you can't stand out in the mass of kiddies and cluelessness in LFR, the problem is you.
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    There isnt anything else "individual skill" than how to play your class, everything else is team work.
    The average normal/heroic raider may know their rotation.. but they don't always know how to get 99% efficiency out of their class while being able to continually maintain high awareness.

    If you don't see the difference being knowing your rotation and truly mastering a class (like every top 10 guild raider does), I just don't know what to say. There are different levels of class mastery.

    The average high end guild probably has better communication, leadership, teamwork, synergy, etc than the average normal mode guild, but the also have players who are significantly better at the game.

  7. #67
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    There isnt anything else "individual skill" than how to play your class, everything else is team work.
    This isn't true, but I can understand how a non raider might think it is. Individual skill comes in many forms now, not just rotation, you need to be able to personally handle specific jobs. Take Seigecrafter blackfuse, for example, the belt teams need to be able to rotate themselves, move at the correct times and not get hit by the shifting laser beams.

    None of that is rotation and is absolutely paramount to killing the fight. We've had raiders that are fantastic at dps, but failed quite notably on the belts, causing wipes until we either replaced their roles or replaced them from the group.
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  8. #68
    Mechagnome Serenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    I dont know what you think is hard, but i have 4 alts who are all above 528 ilvl and i'm not some kind of speciel snowflake.
    If you put any kind of half arsed effort into a character it can easily surpass 528 ilvl.

    Slacker
    Oh we've got a badass over here it seems...
    First of all, read all the comments I made, I'm talking about NEW players. NOT ABOUT ME.. I've stopped wow for some time now due to not being able to play with friends anymore. I managed to get 545 ilvl without any sort of commited raiding and I actually carried the group dps wise by a large margin on all flex encounters and even in some small pugs that killed the first few bosses in the instance. I got some raiding experience both on normal and HC under my belt and I was invited by various guilds / accepted my application to join them that are now 10/14 HC- 13/14 HC. My 2 alts are both also capable of tanking and dpsing FLEX with 531 ilvl and 534 ilvl respectively. All of that with that "kind of half arsed effort" you are talking about...
    Now imagine a fresh player that has hit 90 just now, he can get 528 ilvl + upgraded 536 ilvl from LFR at most and we all know how often LFR drops items...
    Legendary Cloak? HAHAHA, They would need to play 1-2 months to get it. And oh look, as I mentioned above MOST FLEX groups require 540 ilvl even for the FIRST part of SoO flex. Can you UNDERSTAND ALL OF THIS? Thank you!

  9. #69
    There are people who truly master their class but their guild still cant get world firsts, the issue is the teamwork and it is the main bottleneck for majority of players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    This isn't true, but I can understand how a non raider might think it is. Individual skill comes in many forms now, not just rotation, you need to be able to personally handle specific jobs. Take Seigecrafter blackfuse, for example, the belt teams need to be able to rotate themselves, move at the correct times and not get hit by the shifting laser beams.

    None of that is rotation and is absolutely paramount to killing the fight. We've had raiders that are fantastic at dps, but failed quite notably on the belts, causing wipes until we either replaced their roles or replaced them from the group.
    That is teamwork and planning how to play together in raid encounter.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    There isnt anything else "individual skill" than how to play your class, everything else is team work.
    No. Anticipating what happens next and where it happens is one of the key factors of hc raiding. Do i use my cd now? Do i save it? Can i stand here and spam Chaos bolt? is this a good time to pop my dps cd's?

    This leads to survivability and hc kills. This is the most important factor of Raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    There are people who truly master their class but their guild still cant get world firsts, the issue is the teamwork and it is the main bottleneck for majority of players.

    - - - Updated - - -


    That is teamwork and planning how to play together in raid encounter.
    Standing in fire is not teamwork. You can tell the same person 2000 times to not stand in fire and when to move(teamwork) but if his personal skill isnt good enough he will not move/have moved to late(personal skill) leading to a wipe

  11. #71
    Mechagnome Serenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but you actually have to work your way to get at least a decent bit of gear to join those groups or make your own.

    And nobody wants to carry a lazy person who cant even bother to gem his sockets/enchant his gear either.
    Sorry to break it to you, but you actually have to be able to get high ilvl enough gear to join the groups that have these absurb requirements. If you want to make a group of your own it's also hard if you aren't an experienced player as the latter Flex parts require at least a bit of coordination for your average casual.

    And nobody talked about carrying a lazy person who can't even bother to gem his sockets/enchant his gear (or even reforge it since you didn't mention it!) either.
    Also, this problem doesn't directly relate to me, I could get in flex with my 545 toon anytime or start raiding in a decent guild once more if I were to sub back. I was just talking about the NEW players.

  12. #72
    None of that is learned in LKHC25, people have to learn all that encounter spesific stuff for every raid boss. That was the point.

  13. #73
    RE: most flex groups set impossibly high requirements:

    These are upcoming events on openraid. I opened all of the SoO raids on the first couple pages. This is what I found

    flex 1-4 525 ilvl
    flex 1-3 530 ilvl
    flex 1-3 530 ilvl
    flex 1-2 520 ilvl
    flex 1-4 beginner friendly, 500 ilvl
    flex 3-4 535 ilvl
    flex 2 525 ilvl
    flex 4 zerg 538 ilvl
    flex 4 zerg 550 ilvl

    "absurd requirements"

    Clearly jut not looking hard enough..
    Last edited by Vedni; 2014-02-27 at 01:10 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenia View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but you actually have to be able to get high ilvl enough gear to join the groups that have these absurb requirements. If you want to make a group of your own it's also hard if you aren't an experienced player as the latter Flex parts require at least a bit of coordination for your average casual.

    And nobody talked about carrying a lazy person who can't even bother to gem his sockets/enchant his gear (or even reforge it since you didn't mention it!) either.
    Also, this problem doesn't directly relate to me, I could get in flex with my 545 toon anytime or start raiding in a decent guild once more if I were to sub back. I was just talking about the NEW players.
    Doesnt make it less wrong. If you try, you can gear an alt in 2-3 weeks for Flex. Yes you cant do it in 3 hours.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    Doesnt make it less wrong. If you try, you can gear an alt in 2-3 weeks for Flex. Yes you cant do it in 3 hours.
    How in 3 hours?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    First problem is to get required gear for Flex raiding.
    Leg-questline Celestials&Ordos, Burden of Eternity-upgrades, 553-BoE's together with LFR-gear are good ways to get more than geared for Flex
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  17. #77
    Mechagnome Serenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    Doesnt make it less wrong. If you try, you can gear an alt in 2-3 weeks for Flex. Yes you cant do it in 3 hours.
    So you imply that a new player can get his fresh 90 in 2-3 weeks using means like LFR where the RNG is crazy? Let's see, 2-3 items a week at most = 6-9 items total, they still need 7-10 items, plus a legendary cloak, plus to wait 5-6 weeks more to upgrade all the items so that he can barely scratch the 540 ilvl requirement most groups ask. So you basically tell me that a player must play at least nearly 2.5-3 months to even have like 50% chances to get in a flex enviroment? Which requires like 505 ilvl at most for the first 2 parts? I'm not sure there is any way I will accept that. And yes I like to defend new players :P

  18. #78
    how do new players get into raiding? put in the effort, learn their class and spent their time gearing up until they find a guild that takes them, maybe?

    i dont really know what the problem is, i also freshly started in cataclysm, played 1-2 months on my own, getting ready and gearing up and only then approached a guild, which was willing to accept a new player without prior raiding experience (of which there are a lot). Now i am clearing hc raid content while its relevant.

    WoW is not an arcade style game where all options are open to you from the get go (even if Blizzard is changing a lot in order to offer more accessability). It's still deeply founded in traditional RPG way which require you to slowly progress your character and gain more power over time.

    MoP made a lot of things easier, allowing you to progress your gear even outside of raids, and any1 with at least a rudimentary amount of analytical thinking and problem solving skills should be able to find his/her way into an entry level guild.

    E.g. i am often baffled how people do not know how to find further information about their class, about gearing up and progressing your character, and finding likely minded players when all you have to do is start a quick google search
    Last edited by runey; 2014-02-27 at 01:17 PM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenia View Post
    So you imply that a new player can get his fresh 90 in 2-3 weeks using means like LFR where the RNG is crazy? Let's see, 2-3 items a week at most = 6-9 items total, they still need 7-10 items, plus a legendary cloak, plus to wait 5-6 weeks more to upgrade all the items so that he can barely scratch the 540 ilvl requirement most groups ask. So you basically tell me that a player must play at least nearly 2.5-3 months to even have like 50% chances to get in a flex enviroment? Which requires like 505 ilvl at most for the first 2 parts? I'm not sure there is any way I will accept that. And yes I like to defend new players :P
    Yes you absolutely can.
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    None of that is learned in LKHC25, people have to learn all that encounter spesific stuff for every raid boss. That was the point.
    Yes, and having experience in different bosses especially Heroic shows that you as an individual are able to learn and adapt to every type to raid boss in order to kill it.

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