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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    There isnt anything else "individual skill" than how to play your class, everything else is team work.
    The average normal/heroic raider may know their rotation.. but they don't always know how to get 99% efficiency out of their class while being able to continually maintain high awareness.

    If you don't see the difference being knowing your rotation and truly mastering a class (like every top 10 guild raider does), I just don't know what to say. There are different levels of class mastery.

    The average high end guild probably has better communication, leadership, teamwork, synergy, etc than the average normal mode guild, but the also have players who are significantly better at the game.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    There isnt anything else "individual skill" than how to play your class, everything else is team work.
    This isn't true, but I can understand how a non raider might think it is. Individual skill comes in many forms now, not just rotation, you need to be able to personally handle specific jobs. Take Seigecrafter blackfuse, for example, the belt teams need to be able to rotate themselves, move at the correct times and not get hit by the shifting laser beams.

    None of that is rotation and is absolutely paramount to killing the fight. We've had raiders that are fantastic at dps, but failed quite notably on the belts, causing wipes until we either replaced their roles or replaced them from the group.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    I dont know what you think is hard, but i have 4 alts who are all above 528 ilvl and i'm not some kind of speciel snowflake.
    If you put any kind of half arsed effort into a character it can easily surpass 528 ilvl.

    Slacker
    Oh we've got a badass over here it seems...
    First of all, read all the comments I made, I'm talking about NEW players. NOT ABOUT ME.. I've stopped wow for some time now due to not being able to play with friends anymore. I managed to get 545 ilvl without any sort of commited raiding and I actually carried the group dps wise by a large margin on all flex encounters and even in some small pugs that killed the first few bosses in the instance. I got some raiding experience both on normal and HC under my belt and I was invited by various guilds / accepted my application to join them that are now 10/14 HC- 13/14 HC. My 2 alts are both also capable of tanking and dpsing FLEX with 531 ilvl and 534 ilvl respectively. All of that with that "kind of half arsed effort" you are talking about...
    Now imagine a fresh player that has hit 90 just now, he can get 528 ilvl + upgraded 536 ilvl from LFR at most and we all know how often LFR drops items...
    Legendary Cloak? HAHAHA, They would need to play 1-2 months to get it. And oh look, as I mentioned above MOST FLEX groups require 540 ilvl even for the FIRST part of SoO flex. Can you UNDERSTAND ALL OF THIS? Thank you!

  4. #64
    There are people who truly master their class but their guild still cant get world firsts, the issue is the teamwork and it is the main bottleneck for majority of players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    This isn't true, but I can understand how a non raider might think it is. Individual skill comes in many forms now, not just rotation, you need to be able to personally handle specific jobs. Take Seigecrafter blackfuse, for example, the belt teams need to be able to rotate themselves, move at the correct times and not get hit by the shifting laser beams.

    None of that is rotation and is absolutely paramount to killing the fight. We've had raiders that are fantastic at dps, but failed quite notably on the belts, causing wipes until we either replaced their roles or replaced them from the group.
    That is teamwork and planning how to play together in raid encounter.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    There isnt anything else "individual skill" than how to play your class, everything else is team work.
    No. Anticipating what happens next and where it happens is one of the key factors of hc raiding. Do i use my cd now? Do i save it? Can i stand here and spam Chaos bolt? is this a good time to pop my dps cd's?

    This leads to survivability and hc kills. This is the most important factor of Raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    There are people who truly master their class but their guild still cant get world firsts, the issue is the teamwork and it is the main bottleneck for majority of players.

    - - - Updated - - -


    That is teamwork and planning how to play together in raid encounter.
    Standing in fire is not teamwork. You can tell the same person 2000 times to not stand in fire and when to move(teamwork) but if his personal skill isnt good enough he will not move/have moved to late(personal skill) leading to a wipe

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but you actually have to work your way to get at least a decent bit of gear to join those groups or make your own.

    And nobody wants to carry a lazy person who cant even bother to gem his sockets/enchant his gear either.
    Sorry to break it to you, but you actually have to be able to get high ilvl enough gear to join the groups that have these absurb requirements. If you want to make a group of your own it's also hard if you aren't an experienced player as the latter Flex parts require at least a bit of coordination for your average casual.

    And nobody talked about carrying a lazy person who can't even bother to gem his sockets/enchant his gear (or even reforge it since you didn't mention it!) either.
    Also, this problem doesn't directly relate to me, I could get in flex with my 545 toon anytime or start raiding in a decent guild once more if I were to sub back. I was just talking about the NEW players.

  7. #67
    None of that is learned in LKHC25, people have to learn all that encounter spesific stuff for every raid boss. That was the point.

  8. #68
    RE: most flex groups set impossibly high requirements:

    These are upcoming events on openraid. I opened all of the SoO raids on the first couple pages. This is what I found

    flex 1-4 525 ilvl
    flex 1-3 530 ilvl
    flex 1-3 530 ilvl
    flex 1-2 520 ilvl
    flex 1-4 beginner friendly, 500 ilvl
    flex 3-4 535 ilvl
    flex 2 525 ilvl
    flex 4 zerg 538 ilvl
    flex 4 zerg 550 ilvl

    "absurd requirements"

    Clearly jut not looking hard enough..
    Last edited by Notdev; 2014-02-27 at 01:10 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenia View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but you actually have to be able to get high ilvl enough gear to join the groups that have these absurb requirements. If you want to make a group of your own it's also hard if you aren't an experienced player as the latter Flex parts require at least a bit of coordination for your average casual.

    And nobody talked about carrying a lazy person who can't even bother to gem his sockets/enchant his gear (or even reforge it since you didn't mention it!) either.
    Also, this problem doesn't directly relate to me, I could get in flex with my 545 toon anytime or start raiding in a decent guild once more if I were to sub back. I was just talking about the NEW players.
    Doesnt make it less wrong. If you try, you can gear an alt in 2-3 weeks for Flex. Yes you cant do it in 3 hours.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    Doesnt make it less wrong. If you try, you can gear an alt in 2-3 weeks for Flex. Yes you cant do it in 3 hours.
    How in 3 hours?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    First problem is to get required gear for Flex raiding.
    Leg-questline Celestials&Ordos, Burden of Eternity-upgrades, 553-BoE's together with LFR-gear are good ways to get more than geared for Flex

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    Doesnt make it less wrong. If you try, you can gear an alt in 2-3 weeks for Flex. Yes you cant do it in 3 hours.
    So you imply that a new player can get his fresh 90 in 2-3 weeks using means like LFR where the RNG is crazy? Let's see, 2-3 items a week at most = 6-9 items total, they still need 7-10 items, plus a legendary cloak, plus to wait 5-6 weeks more to upgrade all the items so that he can barely scratch the 540 ilvl requirement most groups ask. So you basically tell me that a player must play at least nearly 2.5-3 months to even have like 50% chances to get in a flex enviroment? Which requires like 505 ilvl at most for the first 2 parts? I'm not sure there is any way I will accept that. And yes I like to defend new players :P

  13. #73
    how do new players get into raiding? put in the effort, learn their class and spent their time gearing up until they find a guild that takes them, maybe?

    i dont really know what the problem is, i also freshly started in cataclysm, played 1-2 months on my own, getting ready and gearing up and only then approached a guild, which was willing to accept a new player without prior raiding experience (of which there are a lot). Now i am clearing hc raid content while its relevant.

    WoW is not an arcade style game where all options are open to you from the get go (even if Blizzard is changing a lot in order to offer more accessability). It's still deeply founded in traditional RPG way which require you to slowly progress your character and gain more power over time.

    MoP made a lot of things easier, allowing you to progress your gear even outside of raids, and any1 with at least a rudimentary amount of analytical thinking and problem solving skills should be able to find his/her way into an entry level guild.

    E.g. i am often baffled how people do not know how to find further information about their class, about gearing up and progressing your character, and finding likely minded players when all you have to do is start a quick google search
    Last edited by runey; 2014-02-27 at 01:17 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenia View Post
    So you imply that a new player can get his fresh 90 in 2-3 weeks using means like LFR where the RNG is crazy? Let's see, 2-3 items a week at most = 6-9 items total, they still need 7-10 items, plus a legendary cloak, plus to wait 5-6 weeks more to upgrade all the items so that he can barely scratch the 540 ilvl requirement most groups ask. So you basically tell me that a player must play at least nearly 2.5-3 months to even have like 50% chances to get in a flex enviroment? Which requires like 505 ilvl at most for the first 2 parts? I'm not sure there is any way I will accept that. And yes I like to defend new players :P
    Yes you absolutely can.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    None of that is learned in LKHC25, people have to learn all that encounter spesific stuff for every raid boss. That was the point.
    Yes, and having experience in different bosses especially Heroic shows that you as an individual are able to learn and adapt to every type to raid boss in order to kill it.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Yes you absolutely can.
    Yeah, if you are lucky as hell, maybe. But guess what, 99% of the people playing wow haven't got full 528s in 2-3 weeks from LFR.

  17. #77
    This probably won't help you because it's a different time and era, but I'l say how I did it.

    Burning Crusade expansion, I finally bought the game after watching my friend play for a while. I joined a casual guild with friends he had made in the game, they were aiming for Karazhan... I didn't even know what raiding or Karazhan was. Leveled up and got attuned and went in for my first raid, it quickly became clear that despite my noobness I was pretty good compared to the others and my dps as a damage dealer was competitive (not the best, but good for my gear).

    So I stayed with them a while we cleared Karazhan, I was made an officer. For reasons unrelated to raiding progress I decided I would move on to a proper raiding guild, I still stayed friends with them.. this was in 2007. I applied to a guild who were just getting into Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep, they had already some success there before I joined and had a reasonable reputation on the server.

    How did I get in? My gear was not great, I was relying on PvP weapons due to my lack of drops in Karazhan and I still had my crafted blue Ragesteel gloves and shoulders... My gear was poor, it was not Tier 5 standard, but it was well thought out and well put together. So applying to the guild I made sure that my application and the way I talked about my approach to raiding and my skills were flattering, and that I didn't come across as an idiot. I got accepted.

    I wasn't competitive initially, I was fairly low on the damage meters and experiencing 25mans and the Tier 5 content for the first time and I even picked up a little reputation for breaking sheep CC with whirlwind, it didn't last long but they never stopped winding me up about it! As I'd expected, just as I'd climbed to the top in my previous guild with a few bits of gear I was topping the meters and doing my job well in the new guild. Killing Vashj with them remains one of my best WoW gaming moments.

    Next up was later on joining a Sunwell guild. I actually got kicked from my previous guild due to competitiveness and/or jealousy regarding the damage meters with an officer who liked being top damage, I think he was young (16-18 at a guess) and I was asked to leave or be kicked due to my disagreements with this person... Only for them to later offer me back into the guild as they had discovered said officer was bullying other members with his power. I declined.

    So back on to the Sunwell guild, In my previous guild we had been raiding Black Temple and Mt Hyjal but we weren't always successful, we had not killed Illidan and Archimonde was a massive struggle, me being kicked brought the opportunity to move onwards and upwards. I applied to the Sunwell guild again undergeared for the content, I had some T6 raid instance parts but I was mostly still a Tier 5 Warrior, I still used the Tier 4 helmet. But I had quality gear for the level with the Blacksmithing chest (better than T5) and the Talon of A'lar (very decent weapon) and overall it was a nicely balanced gearset. Either way I was never going to get into the guild on either my gear or my experience alone, they wanted Black Temple fully geared veterans or even people who had maybe a Sunwell kill or 2. So I again talked about my experiences, why I raided and my approach to it, displayed my expertise on the class and talked of how I felt when I finally beat Vashj.

    They accepted me, I got taken through Black Temple on their farm runs and I quickly geared up, and it quickly became apparent that I was very competitive, occassionally topping the meters in lesser gear, which then led them to take me to their Sunwell raids.



    The point is that you have to do it one step at a time, it's very unlikely for anyone to start at the bottom and then just straight to the top, you need to build experience and you need to build on your skills, evaluate yourself around other and see how you fare and gauge your expectations for a guild on that. But you do need something to show, so that is why you join someone who is progressing on normal mode, you don't just jump into a heroic progression guild... Having a strong application that allows the guild to see that

    1. You're confident (but not overconfident) of your own abilities
    2. That you know what you're doing, you understand your class
    3. That you have in depth knowledge of the fights and various roles that need to be played.
    4. That you're going to get along well with other members, a friendly attitude.


    But either way you do it, one step at a time. Now is the perfect time to join a normal guild, gain your experience and prepare for the expansion to decide how you will move foward.




    Edit : Fucking hell holy wall of text. Too Long Didn't Read : One step at a time!
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2014-02-27 at 01:26 PM.
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  18. #78
    i've played for years, mostly pvp and im a 2500+ rated player but since pvp is shit this expac i decided to start raiding a few weeks into SoO, found a guild that was 4/14h while i was mostly in flex gear, they gave me a shot and they were impressed with me. after i got geared i realized they weren't what i was looking for so i joined a better group, that fell apart after a few weeks but i used the logs to join what was a 13/14h group at the time and im now 14/14h after raiding for only a few months. so in my limited experience if you're good enough you'll get noticed and the road to a good guild isn't too hard.

  19. #79
    The other post was openraid staff hosted events, here are the next 15 non staff hosted SoO flex events - I'm not filtering any out, except two that had 460 requirement, and a normal Stormrage run that had a 540 requirement.

    "Flex 4 Thursdays" - 530 ilvl
    "#Tendrak's SoO Wing 1 Flexi" - 525 ilvl
    "Gun's Flex 3 and 4 Run" - 540 ilvl
    "#Tendrak's SoO Wing 2 Flexi" - 530 ilvl
    "#Tendrak's SoO Wing 3 Flexi" - 535 ilvl
    "#Tendrak SoO Wing 4 Flexi" - 535 ilvl
    "Flex 1 achievements" - 535 ilvl
    "Flex 2 achievements" - 535 ilvl
    "Flex 4 Paragons Acheivement" - 535 ilvl
    "Lethal Guild Flex 1 & 2" - 510 ilvl
    "SoO--End of W2 then W3" - 500 ilvl
    "Maulson's SoO Week 2 Day 2" (starting on flex 3/4) - 530 ilvl
    "SoO Flex" - 510 ilvl
    "DJ Berly's Flex Party 3-4?" - 540 ilvl
    "SoO Flex Wing 4 " - 540 ilvl
    "weathered Flex SOO" - 520 ilvl

    Please stop stating the majority of SoO groups have absurd requirements like it's a fact. Just need to know where to look.
    Last edited by Notdev; 2014-02-27 at 01:30 PM.

  20. #80
    Hi Cle

    As a recruitment officer for my guild who's 13/14H and has stayed in some top 100 ranks in 10-man ,here is the advice Ill give you that I give every player with little to no experience.

    1. You need to figure out what type of raiding environment you want to be in, casual raiding, semi-hardcore or hardcore. Keep in mind the time that you want to put into raiding , if you're ready for the heavy progression or just want to keep IRL in check and just randomly raid from time to time.

    I've given people with practically none to some heroic raiding experience chances, and they have turned out to be gems and are still raiding with me today, some though were very good but got burnt out with the hours involved in the progression pushing. (mind you there are some 2 nights a week heroic raiding guilds)

    2. You need to show how determined you are to get there. If you're not running flexes, you're only doing some LFR, not getting your coins every week or getting stuffed crafted for you, or even trying to get things of BMAH, then reality is you don't want it that bad. I.E : If you need a flex run then go out and make your own group instead of sitting there and waiting for it to be handed to you. Or find a guild that's doing SoO but only the first few bosse's. You want to raid then put yourself out there.

    3. Have some logs ready. Run your own private logs whether its LFR , flex or normal's , show people what you can do and achieve. Gear doesn't make the player , skill does.

    Depending on where you want to go with the raiding you'll have to do a lot of research, show how well you know your class and what makes you an exceptional player. knowledge of your class is one thing, but knowledge about what to do in a sticky situation is another. A good example is paragons aim can be removed by any priest with one of their abilities. Which makes things slightly easier when it comes down to heroic strats. These are small things that will differentiate you from a player and a smart player .

    In my guild I have a hunter that can take on any job you give him and his knowledge on these jobs that can or wont be given to him is known prior to every fights. Being a smart player is what will get you in the raiding environment. Not dying to silly mechanics is a big plus, you can smash buttons and give good numbers but if you die all the time, I'm not bringing you back into the raid. Everything is based on the effort you put into it, any good guild will see it as far as logs, goals and personality. It's all based on you. If you're not putting yourself out there then you wont get anywhere.

    Last but not least, don't raid for loot..If that's the only reason you're trying to get into a raiding environment you need to re-evaluate why you want to raid. I deny any application that mentions the word loot, just not what I'm looking for.

    All this information is based off of 4 years of recruitment in a guilds that's been around since 2008, there's more to it but that's the gist of it all.


    P.S : Teamwork is somewhat important, we're a 10-man and if there is no chemistry between our players , we don't usually tend to keep someone who doesn't fit in our home. It's not the only criteria needed though to down a boss.

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