Problem with subraces

[Yig]

And the playable goblin cartel we have as a player race population wise pales to the remaining number of Alliance high elves, don't think scarcity precludes player options. We play exceptional individuals, not mundane atypical bakers, unless you're on of those RPers set to not be "special" in a game based on superhero comic books and 20th century fantasy novels.

[Stormdash]

They look the same because Blizzard only needed to develop one model for the race. There wasn't any need to develop a separate model for High Elves because there wasn't any need to create distinct identities for either grouping.

There still is no need, even if the Alliance got the sub-race access. "Enough of that," says the race that renders this argument moot.

Humans have more than one model. Orcs have more than one model. Trolls have more than one model. And so on. Where there is a need to develop a different identity, Blizzard has done so.

Playable humans have one model. Playable orcs have one model. Playable trolls have one model.

**IF** HElfs were to come in, and I do mean IF, then they'd either be a BElf subrace (no change necessary except blue eye glow) or they'd go Alliance. IF they went Alliance, there would then be a strong need to give them their own unique visual identity.

They are a BE subrace because that is the objective truth of what they are; they are the Blood Elves' Dark Iron Dwarves or Mag'har Orcs. That doesn't change based on which faction does or doesn't have access to the subrace skin.

Yes - I realise that there is an opinion that a race should be represented in game by only one model. But that "ideal" doesn't hold true now so why should HElfs be held to that standard? The issue is would it be possible for Blizzard to give HElfs that unique visual identity. The answer is yes.

Would it be an extravagantly unnecessary use of development resources to draw a visual distinction for players that is in and of itself contrary to the lore of the race (there are different troll models, after all, because they are actually different)? The answer is also yes.

[Deleted]

And the playable goblin cartel we have as a player race population wise pales to the remaining number of Alliance high elves, don't think scarcity precludes player options. We play exceptional individuals, not mundane atypical bakers, unless you're on of those RPers set to not be "special" in a game based on superhero comic books and 20th century fantasy novels.

I agree it's a minor complaint. The lack of a new model for a fully fledged race is the main problem.

[shoc]

There are tons of great, lore friendly sub-races for every race. The only outlier in terms of 'sub-race' are that some of these sub races aren't sub-races at all. High Elves are the obvious ones, they aren't a sub-race of any Alliance race so there are some issues there. We couldn't just get High Elves as reskinned Blood Elves for obvious reasons. Lorewise, there are plenty of High Elves so playability is not an issue, like Yig said the only Bilgewater Goblins that exist all fit on one boat at some point.

It's just the model. The only solution I see to this would be to retcon High Elves to look like white Night Elves, or Humans with ears.

[Oswen]

I see to this would be to retcon High Elves to look like white Night Elves, or Humans with ears.

Or just give up and play the halfelf card as a human subrace, mirrored by halfogres for the horde.

[shoc]

Or just give up and play the halfelf card as a human subrace, mirrored by halfogres for the horde.

Half-Elves and Mok'nathal would be a nice compromise, would they use the Human/Orc Base model or would they be slightly modified, such as different Tusks/Ears. Or would they simply be alternate skins, such as yellow Orc and Glowing Blue eyes?

[Deleted]

There are tons of great, lore friendly sub-races for every race. The only outlier in terms of 'sub-race' are that some of these sub races aren't sub-races at all. High Elves are the obvious ones, they aren't a sub-race of any Alliance race so there are some issues there. We couldn't just get High Elves as reskinned Blood Elves for obvious reasons. Lorewise, there are plenty of High Elves so playability is not an issue, like Yig said the only Bilgewater Goblins that exist all fit on one boat at some point.

It's just the model. The only solution I see to this would be to retcon High Elves to look like white Night Elves, or Humans with ears.

Can someone please explain why the model is a problem if the High Elves are a subrace?

[Talen]

There still is no need, even if the Alliance got the sub-race access. "Enough of that," says the race that renders this argument moot.

Debateble - just how important is it that the BElfs retain their unique visual identity? If its unimportant, then yes...no new model is needed. If its important - then a new visual model would be important.

Playable humans have one model. Playable orcs have one model. Playable trolls have one model.

And BElfs would have one model and HElfs would have one model.

They are a BE subrace because that is the objective truth of what they are; they are the Blood Elves' Dark Iron Dwarves or Mag'har Orcs. That doesn't change based on which faction does or doesn't have access to the subrace skin.

And BElfs are a NElf subrace that does have a unique model.

Would it be an extravagantly unnecessary use of development resources to draw a visual distinction for players that is in and of itself contrary to the lore of the race (there are different troll models, after all, because they are actually different)? The answer is also yes.

No. It wouldn't. Identity is important here. There'd be no need for a new model if the HElfs went to the Horde. But on the Alliance? You're effectively adding a new racial graphic. Copying something that is unique to the Horde. Something that is now part of the Horde identity.

That isn't really acceptable. The subrace option doesn't really work for the HElfs and the new race option has its own drawbacks. There is no issue today because the HElfs aren't playable. It would be an issue if the HElf were promoted to a player race. BElfs would rightfully complain at losing the uniqueness of their look.

EJL

[shoc]

Can someone please explain why the model is a problem if the High Elves are a subrace?

Because the concept of sub-races is the application of custom skins to an existing race. For example, Brown skinned Orcs are Mag'har. Dark skinned, Red Eyes Dwarves are Dark Irons. Dark Irons and Mag'har works because they are proper members of the Alliance and the Horde respectively, but we run into trouble when we consider the High Elves.

High Elves and Blood Elves share a model, and since High Elves are allied with the Alliance, to add the High Elf race to WoW as a playable race they would have to rehash the Blood Elf model and give it to the Alliance somehow. Also, High Elves are not a sub-race, if anything they are a full race and Blood Elves are the sub-race of High Elves.

Technically, we already have High Elves, they just have Green Eyes and changed their allegiances.

The only solution I see to having High Elves as an Alliance sub-race would for them to be reskins of Night Elves or Humans. Not ideal, but reskinning the Blood Elf model and throwing it into the Alliance is out of the question.

[Stormdash]

Debateble - just how important is it that the BElfs retain their unique visual identity? If its unimportant, then yes...no new model is needed. If its important - then a new visual model would be important.

Consistency with lore facts is important; effective management of development resources is important. Both break against high elves getting their own model.

[quote]And BElfs would have one model and HElfs would have one model.[quote]

So then, Mag'har should get one, Dark Iron should get one. Running in circles here. THEY ARE NOT A DIFFERENT RACE. They are at best a sub-race and more accurately just a political sect.

And BElfs are a NElf subrace that does have a unique model.

Blood Elves/high elves and Night Elves are different because over thousands of years (not thousands of... weeks, really?) they literally just became a unique race.

No. It wouldn't. Identity is important here. There'd be no need for a new model if the HElfs went to the Horde. But on the Alliance? You're effectively adding a new racial graphic. Copying something that is unique to the Horde. Something that is now part of the Horde identity.

All the relevant identity interest is covered in a tooltip and the way that the character cons to other players. Lore fact > your take on high elf "identity" -- they aren't different races, they are not different the way forest and jungle trolls are. Development priorities being determined rationally > your take on high elf "identity" -- every playable race gets one unique model per gender, no rationally reason to double the work load (specifically to represent a difference that does not exist in the lore on which the game is based).

That isn't really acceptable. The subrace option doesn't really work for the HElfs and the new race option has its own drawbacks. There is no issue today because the HElfs aren't playable. It would be an issue if the HElf were promoted to a player race. BElfs would rightfully complain at losing the uniqueness of their look.

EJL

Wouldn't be an issue if they were playable, either. There is no rational way around it, certainly not with the Pandaren sitting there, none. There's nothing you can point to from Blizzard that they are eating their hate and chewing nails over not having made separate Pandaren for each faction -- probably because, again, it's not worth spending more development time to represent a falsehood in game with a separate model, since the lore fact is that Pandaren aren't shaped different because of playable faction alignment. The only actual issue raised if high elves (based obviously on existing BE assets) were made playable is parity for Horde character creation.

[Deleted]

Because the concept of sub-races is the application of custom skins to an existing race. For example, Brown skinned Orcs are Mag'har. Dark skinned, Red Eyes Dwarves are Dark Irons. Dark Irons and Mag'har works because they are proper members of the Alliance and the Horde respectively, but we run into trouble when we consider the High Elves.

High Elves and Blood Elves share a model, and since High Elves are allied with the Alliance, to add the High Elf race to WoW as a playable race they would have to rehash the Blood Elf model and give it to the Alliance somehow. Also, High Elves are not a sub-race, if anything they are a full race and Blood Elves are the sub-race of High Elves.

Technically, we already have High Elves, they just have Green Eyes and changed their allegiances.

The only solution I see to having High Elves as an Alliance sub-race would for them to be reskins of Night Elves or Humans. Not ideal, but reskinning the Blood Elf model and throwing it into the Alliance is out of the question.

Where are you getting this idea that subraces would have to be simple reskins? I think that High Elves, Undead Elves, Broken and Taunka should all be subraces and all would require different models to the main race. If we just have simple reskins then subraces are going to be pretty limited and wouldn't be living up to their full potential. It seems rather silly to me that under your concept of a subrace the lore would be allowed to be twisted to give a Leper Gnome subrace, but the Broken - already a key part of the Draenei race - wouldn't be available.

The fact that High Elves aren't actually a subrace of humans is irrelevant. You're getting too caught up with the semantics of it. Technically High Elves would be a sub-faction, but functionally that would work identically to a subrace.

I also fail to see why giving the Alliance the Blood Elf model would be a problem. Who does it affect? Save for those who would like to role High Elves? No one is negatively affected. There is no game balance issues, you can still play a Belf on the Horde etc. When it comes down to it, people just don't like the idea of the Alliance getting a Horde model because the Belf model is theirs. Which is really rather petty and stupid.

If you twist the High Elves so that they're on the Horde side, or if you retcon their appearance so they look like Nelfs you pretty much just take away what makes them appealing in the first place and therefore you might as well not make them. High Elves as a human subrace makes sense, harms no one and is absolutely the way to go.

[shoc]

Where are you getting this idea that subraces would have to be simple reskins? I think that High Elves, Undead Elves, Broken and Taunka should all be subraces and all would require different models to the main race. If we just have simple reskins then subraces are going to be pretty limited and wouldn't be living up to their full potential. It seems rather silly to me that under your concept of a subrace the lore would be allowed to be twisted to give a Leper Gnome subrace, but the Broken - already a key part of the Draenei race - wouldn't be available.

The fact that High Elves aren't actually a subrace of humans is irrelevant. You're getting too caught up with the semantics of it. Technically High Elves would be a sub-faction, but functionally that would work identically to a subrace.

I also fail to see why giving the Alliance the Blood Elf model would be a problem. Who does it affect? Save for those who would like to role High Elves? No one is negatively affected. There is no game balance issues, you can still play a Belf on the Horde etc. When it comes down to it, people just don't like the idea of the Alliance getting a Horde model because the Belf model is theirs. Which is really rather petty and stupid.

If you twist the High Elves so that they're on the Horde side, or if you retcon their appearance so they look like Nelfs you pretty much just take away what makes them appealing in the first place and therefore you might as well not make them. High Elves as a human subrace makes sense, harms no one and is absolutely the way to go.

Then High Elves would have to be added as a playable race, not a sub-race. That is a completely different issue than what people are talking about here, which is High Elves as a sub-race within an already existing race. High Elves are a likely candidate for a playable race sometime in the future, alongside Ogres for the Horde. While they aren't the most interesting playable races, I'd be willing to put money on them being in the next 4-6 expansions.

Though, if High Elves are added as a regular race, with an identical model as current Blood Elves, people would scream rehash until the cows come home. Blizzard would have to give the Horde an equally rehashed race, like the Ogres or something, to make up for it.

[Deleted]

Then High Elves would have to be added as a playable race, not a sub-race. That is a completely different issue than what people are talking about here, which is High Elves as a sub-race within an already existing race. High Elves are a likely candidate for a playable race sometime in the future, alongside Ogres for the Horde. While they aren't the most interesting playable races, I'd be willing to put money on them being in the next 4-6 expansions.

Though, if High Elves are added as a regular race, with an identical model as current Blood Elves, people would scream rehash until the cows come home. Blizzard would have to give the Horde an equally rehashed race, like the Ogres or something, to make up for it.

Erm no, they don't have to be a fully fledged race and I don't know why you wrote a post about that because I clearly wasn't talking about that. They can be a human subrace. The Alliance get their High Elves but without the shouts of laziness that would ensue if it came at the expense of a unique racial model. I really don't get how my suggestion is apparently so hard to understand even if you don't agree with it.

[Talen]

Consistency with lore facts is important

This is from the same company which states gameplay is more important?

Even giving that....why do you think - lorewise - all HElfs have the same body type? There are no fat Elfs? No tall ones? No short? No strong? No weak?

Lorewise the race is going to have a myriad of body types, of which one is used to represent the Blood Elfs. If the Alliance were to get HElfs, why would the need to showcase the racial links override the need to give each a unique visual identity?

Which...to you...would be more important? Ensuring that the racial links of lore is emphasised? Or giving each group their own unique identity?

; effective management of development resources is important. Both break against high elves getting their own model.

Consistency of lore is important but identity is much more important. Effective management of development resources is important...and if Blizzard judges that HElfs would be a worthwhile addition, they'd devote the necessary resources....which would be spent anyway on creating the Alliance race, when it occurred.

So then, Mag'har should get one, Dark Iron should get one. Running in circles here. THEY ARE NOT A DIFFERENT RACE. They are at best a sub-race and more accurately just a political sect.

Who cares if they are a different race or not? The point being made is whether the Alliance should get a player model that is identical to a Horde model. Whether the visual uniqueness of the BElfs should be taken away simply to give the Alliance HElfs. Whether the theme that they are the same race is more important than the visual identity of the race in question.

The answer is simple and straightforward. The Alliance should NOT get a Horde model. The unique visual identity of the BElf race should NOT be removed simply to give the Alliance HElfs. And emphasising the racial links is NOT more important than keeping the unique visual identity.

That leaves either not implementing HElfs at all or giving them a unique model as the viable options. The former is far more likely.

Blood Elves/high elves and Night Elves are different because over thousands of years (not thousands of... weeks, really?) they literally just became a unique race.

Thousands of years and...4? 5? generations. How different are you from your great-great-great-grandfather?

Wouldn't be an issue if they were playable, either. There is no rational way around it, certainly not with the Pandaren sitting there, none. There's nothing you can point to from Blizzard that they are eating their hate and chewing nails over not having made separate Pandaren for each faction

They have expressed regret over the loss of faction identity in the 5.4 interviews.

probably because, again, it's not worth spending more development time to represent a falsehood in game with a separate model

What falsehood? Why do you think having a different VISUAL identity would create the lore that they are separate races? Why would it retcon all the existing lore?

You give HElfs a different visual identity ...all it means is that they look different. That the Alliance HElfs would have a different look from the Horde BElfs. They'd have the same lore, the same history that they do now. But selecting an agile BElfs to represent the Horde and a tall HElf for the Alliance doesn't do anything to change the lore. It'd just give each a different look.

Again...the question is "How much is visual identity worth?". The answer is "Quite a lot".

EJL

[TheWindWalker]

And BElfs would have one model and HElfs would have one model.

One day when you're far from this post and looking back, I really hope you come to terms and understand how ridiculous that sounded.

[Yig]

There are tons of great, lore friendly sub-races for every race. The only outlier in terms of 'sub-race' are that some of these sub races aren't sub-races at all. High Elves are the obvious ones, they aren't a sub-race of any Alliance race so there are some issues there. We couldn't just get High Elves as reskinned Blood Elves for obvious reasons. Lorewise, there are plenty of High Elves so playability is not an issue, like Yig said the only Bilgewater Goblins that exist all fit on one boat at some point.

It's just the model. The only solution I see to this would be to retcon High Elves to look like white Night Elves, or Humans with ears.

No, that's a waste of time and gives nobody what anybody wants. We already have High Elves who look like Night Elves. The Shen'Dralar. They never lived in the Well of Eternity. They dress in traditional vestments and you can make one now. They all have typically silver hair as a remnant of the times when ti was a sign of high birth.


This becomes an exercise in lore bureaucracy, not a means of expanded player customization and lore centric player models.
For high elves to ever work, they would need to share a race like Pandaren with fox tails only more extreme, or they would require novel mechanics.
But you're just ruining the entire appeal of this by asking for Highborne Night Elves. This isn't getting anyone what they want.

These "compromises" defeat the point of these requested features in the first place.



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Or just give up and play the halfelf card as a human subrace, mirrored by halfogres for the horde.

Then nobody get's what they wanted and we get a weird compromise wasting dev resources based on pedantic conservative bureaucracy over game mechanics and flexible novel features.

Robinson said Orcs with straighter backs are in consideration on a wishlist as of a few months ago. Meaning they were given serious thought as possible depending on circumstances. This would open up entire new avenues in player customization. He also hinted with a joke at player trolls being due for growth hormone. This all might never happen, but it shows they are open to new ideas and these lame ass compromise are doing nobody any favors.

I'm not even that married to high elves, but if they do it. Do it right.

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Half-Elves and Mok'nathal would be a nice compromise, would they use the Human/Orc Base model or would they be slightly modified, such as different Tusks/Ears. Or would they simply be alternate skins, such as yellow Orc and Glowing Blue eyes?

They would be a lame compromise almost nobody asked for. They are maligned by the RP community as "special snowflakes" and look boring. The Mok'nathal offer much more, in fact they offer enough to be a new player race. It would be a waste of potential to just make them a sub race.

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Debateble - just how important is it that the BElfs retain their unique visual identity? If its unimportant, then yes...no new model is needed. If its important - then a new visual model would be important.



And BElfs would have one model and HElfs would have one model.



And BElfs are a NElf subrace that does have a unique model.



No. It wouldn't. Identity is important here. There'd be no need for a new model if the HElfs went to the Horde. But on the Alliance? You're effectively adding a new racial graphic. Copying something that is unique to the Horde. Something that is now part of the Horde identity.

That isn't really acceptable. The subrace option doesn't really work for the HElfs and the new race option has its own drawbacks. There is no issue today because the HElfs aren't playable. It would be an issue if the HElf were promoted to a player race. BElfs would rightfully complain at losing the uniqueness of their look.

EJL

This is just fishing. NObody cares about this but the most petty members of the community and they should not be a factor in any decision made EVER. PAndaren make this entire issue moot. But High Elves would preferably have alterations in their posture or animations or hair and skin.

[Talen]

One day when you're far from this post and looking back, I really hope you come to terms and understand how ridiculous that sounded.

In suggesting that BElfs deserve to keep their unique visual identity regardless of what happens to High Elves? How is that ridiculous?

EJL

[Yig]

The only solution I see to having High Elves as an Alliance sub-race would for them to be reskins of Night Elves or Humans. Not ideal, but reskinning the Blood Elf model and throwing it into the Alliance is out of the question.

There is a long list of things that were out of the question in WOW that changed. This isn't any different.

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In suggesting that BElfs deserve to keep their unique visual identity regardless of what happens to High Elves? How is that ridiculous?

EJL

Because it's petty and childish and people need to stop pretending they are one race int he game and play the entire game itself or deal with it like adults. Pandaren are on both factions, this could have been different in TBC when they were the original Alliance race before Draenei. You don't see Alliance crying over the change in developer approach.

[Phasma]

I wonder how many people know that Sylvanas is a High Elf. Change lore? What?

[Talen]

Because it's petty and childish and people need to stop pretending they are one race int he game and play the entire game itself or deal with it like adults. Pandaren are on both factions, this could have been different in TBC when they were the original Alliance race before Draenei. You don't see Alliance crying over the change in developer approach.

Pandaren are on both factions, but pandaren also came into the game as playable on both sides. BElfs did not. Blizzards also talked about the importance of identity several times in the past...and at least once wrt the Pandaren.

In short...BElf players have an expectation of a unique visual identity that Pandarens do not have. It would be unfair to them to take that away from them. One could make the argument that doing a swap of some sort - giving the Horde access to an Alliance model - would be just as fair and they would have a point. However, Blizzard does not seem inclined to reduce faction identity at this time.


As it is - HElfs are problematic. Their ingame lore is heavily Alliance centric. And with Blizzard confirming that the blue eyed BElfs in game are bugged and one that should have ben fixed, they don't seem a likely candidate for a BElf subrace (Possible, but unlikely). But giving them to the Alliance when they have no natural parent race and when their visual identity would compromise the visual uniqueness of the Horde BElfs also seems unlikely to occur.

That leaves either giving the HElfs a "new" model - either new or a reworked version of one already in game a la Zandalari/Saurok/Mogu - or not bringing in HElfs at all.

EJL