Problem with subraces

[Kellorion]

This is why I like the write someone did on here that had like 3 I think sub-races for all races.
Like Orc had Orc, Mag'har Orc, and Mok'nathal. Dwarfves get Bronzebeard, Wildhammer, and Dark Iron.

Then have new classes for certain races, Like Wildhammers get Shamans, and Highborne (N Elf subrace) get mages/locks. Ones that already exist, like the mentioned Dwarf Shammies could be grandfather in, they could keep the race skin if they wanted.

[Yig]

I don't want to see them without a new model. But this idea of BELF players having an expectation of unique ID is just fishing and silly. The amount of people who cared about this would be insignificant and they would be petty for opening that door beyond a token mutter for all it's worth in the end. Just as people are using orbs of deception or a million other cosmetic ways to look like another race, you can split hairs all day. If that's the best you can do, it's a flimsy and awkward point of contention. The more obvious point is they would be boring as hell without significant work done to them, and only would work as an Alliance ethnic race of some sort shoehorned into another race as a faction similar to Shen'dralar, not having the strength to carry a new player race without brand new player models and animations.

This concern over people feeling jealous went out the window a long time ago when they homogenized the classes to basically all have the same basic spells with nothing but cosmetic and mechanic twists, especially now that they share much of the same armor sets outside of main raid tiers, it's just arbitrary to draw a circle in the sound and make a stand here on this topic, and really one should use one of the more solid examples making this problematic we have rather than trying to think of as many as you can which this approach smacks of. It's just absurd to view players in this game as the race they've chosen to play when the majority of people in this game play alts anyways, unlike me, who actually has a main I focus on and identify with through lore pride and RP. But any of those virtual bigots who take the game so seriously they might complain? Who cares? What's the worst that would happen? Their feelings would be hurt? While a bevy of other players would not have their feeling hurt, but an army of people just as valid for paying subs want something and their complaints and desires aren't a factor because of a time line. So "I was here first" is the method of determination? We shouldn't have to dignify these childish mindsets by acknowledging them. with I still wouldn't mind if a variant model of my favorite race showed up on the other faction, I would personally find it an awesome new way to explore my favorite model or use of the model. Faction favoritism be damned.

This kind of crap should not be a factor in decisions like this, It's just a bleeding heart concern for a faceless mass of would be heart broken players you have no proof exist in tangible numbers in the first place. It's basically fishing for contradiction.

[Talen]

But this idea of BELF players having an expectration of unique ID is just fishing and silly. The amount of people who cared about this would insignificant and they would be petty.

Maybe so. But they are loud, they have commented on this before, and they'd have a point. How the race looks is a large part of what draws them to it.

Why should it be given to the Alliance?


You might think it a non issue, of importance to onylk few petty and slefish individuals...but identity is an important apsect of the game and playe experience, Look at the care Blizzard are taking over the model revamp and how much effort they are putting into that.

Identity, look...they matter. And giving the Alliance a race with the same visual identity is an issue.

If you don't think it important - and you don't seem to - then a new model isn't needed. If you do, then a new model is near mandatory.

It's just absurd to view players in this game as the race they've chosen to play when the majority of people in this game play alts anyways, unlike me, who actually has a main I focus on and identify with through lore pride and RP.

So - identity is unimportant....you just have an avatar you can identitfy with through lore pride and RP.

Why is it OK for you - but petty and selfish for those who feel the same way about the BElf visual identity?

This kind of crap should not be a factor in decisions like this, It's just a bleeding heart concern for a faceless mass of would be heart broken players you have no proof exist in tangible numbers in the first place. It's basically fishing for contradiction.

You believe it shouldn't be a factor. Given the care Blizzard are taking with ther new model updates - alongside various comments at other times - it would seem they disgaree. Either way, the issue here is that your opinion differs from mine - you think visual identity isn't worth considering and I do.

EJL

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

In short...BElf players have an expectation of a unique visual identity that Pandarens do not have. It would be unfair to them to take that away from them. One could make the argument that doing a swap of some sort - giving the Horde access to an Alliance model - would be just as fair and they would have a point. However, Blizzard does not seem inclined to reduce faction identity at this time.

This wouldn't make sense or be fair at all... especially considering how Alliance always seems to get the short end of the stick with new races.. and BElves were only given to Horde to give them a "pretty" race.. its A OKAY if Blizzard does that... but heaven forbid the Alliance gets to play a race that has been a part of it since.. forever.

[Stormdash]

This is just fishing. NObody cares about this but the most petty members of the community and they should not be a factor in any decision made EVER. PAndaren make this entire issue moot. But High Elves would preferably have alterations in their posture or animations or hair and skin.

Exactly. This is just the most unabashedly "special snowflake" request ever, total disregard for both lore, logic, and efficient use of development resources. Since it's obviously if Blizzard did "high elves for Alliance" in anything resembling the obvious, logical, and most affordable ways that voices like Talen's would be complaining loudly, it's probably better at this point that they haven't done it.

[shise]

I am certain we are having a new playable race (prolly race + class) as a WoD sequel, hence afterwards. It would easily make sense, lore and time wise.

My bets: high elfs and demon hunters. (By the way, I'm not a fanboy of neither, I like them, but that's it. I just find it to suit the case). Not sure about the horde.

[Aquamonkey]

I think the biggest problem with High Elves, lore wise, is that their population was almost wiped out. 90% of the High Elf population was wiped out when Arthas went after the Sunwell, and 90% of the survivors ended up becoming Blood Elves (I didn't dig deep into the sources on that, but it's what Wowpedia says). If that is the case, it leaves VERY few Alliance-loyal High Elves to support a playable race.

The Battle.net page says: 90% of the HElves were wiped out in the 3rd War.

The old WoW encyclopedia said: Of the 10% that survived, 90% became BElves, 85% of whom remained in Azeroth (~7.7% of original population).

HElves (1% of original population) were exiled from Quel'thalas or weren't there when the Scourge attacked. Not all of them joined the Alliance.

Also:

In consequence, there are so few high elves left on Azeroth today that they cannot be considered a race in anything other than the biological sense. High elves do not gather in any significant numbers, nor do they act as a coordinated whole. They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals. Indeed, modern high elves cannot even truly be said to have a culture--only a past filled with glory and regret. (Source)

Examples of these small scattered groups are the Silver Covenant, Quel'Danil Lodge, and Quel'Lithien Lodge (before they became wretched).

Course, you could technically say the same thing about the Draenei. There was the whole genocide thing on Draenor where the Orcs went after them, and the fact that most of their world's population ended up becoming loyal to Kil'jaeden. But I never saw an actual "90% of the population" number mentioned anywhere, so it's possible that they ended up with more survivors than the High Elves did.

Part IV
The orcish campaign against the draenei was brutally effective. Over eighty percent of the draenei race was destroyed, though a small group of survivors remained, including the noble Velen. (Source)

The Draenei have been breeding like bunnies since the spaceship crash, so I'd say in a few years there are more Draenei than orcs!! :P

Durotan felt himself smiling in return. Without thinking, he said, "In our encampment you would find many children. Where are the draenei children?"
"We do not have many," Restalaan said. "Our people are very long-lived, and because of that we do not often have children."
--Rise of the Horde

[Talen]

Exactly. This is just the most unabashedly "special snowflake" request ever, total disregard for both lore, logic, and efficient use of development resources. Since it's obviously if Blizzard did "high elves for Alliance" in anything resembling the obvious, logical, and most affordable ways that voices like Talen's would be complaining loudly, it's probably better at this point that they haven't done it.

The "special snowflake" status is an acknowledgement that BElfs deserve to keep their unqiue identity and as such that decreases the possibility of Alliance HElfs. It also presupposes no equivalent action for the Horde.
The "lore" would be an acknowledgement that every single BElf has the same body type - a supposition I actually do completely reject.
Logic would indicate that there is no reason that HElfs need to have the same model as BElfs and that if the need for visual identity deemed is great enough, it would be logical for Blizzard to allocate the resources necessary....which in turn would make said development an efficient use of development resources. Resources that woudl otherwise be spent - goving the Alliance a new model or race or similar

As it is, many Alliance players would be overjoyed at getting the Horde BElf model as HElfs. That's not something that should be seen as fair to the BElf players. Others would look at this most affordable path and scream rehash. Especially if the Horde was seen as getting something new.

But - are you really suggesting it would be worthwile for the BElfs to lose what they have - a unique visual identity - in order to give the Alliance HElfs on the cheap?

EJL

[Kellorion]

^^ Or you know both

[Stormdash]

Look -- insofar as anybody gives a shit about "unique visual identities" (really, this is a concern you've invented out of whole cloth to bootstrap the "gimme gimme gimme" with snowflake models for high elves to), the Blood Elves have a "unique visual identity" right now in that it's a Horde race. The Thalassian elves, the nation of Quel'thalas, it's a Horde race. That there is a smattering of antagonistic other sectarian members that align with the opposite faction should mean about as much for the "high elves" as it does for the Grimtotem*. The Blood Elves will lose what they have that's "unique" if their equivalent of the Defias brotherhood or Grimtotems are made player characters for the Alliance. If anything, compounding that slight by wasting development time on an entirely separate playable model that has absolutely no justification in lore at all would make it more obnoxious than it may already be if the Alliance got to play lore-compatible high elves (i.e. blood elf models) at all.

*Or the Shen'dralar -- which when made playable was on the same faction as part of racial reconciliation.

[Zuben]

No. This in no way requires "fairness" or balance when lore is the yard stick, no more than we should balance hairstyles. If it makes sense do it, if it's just a token shoe horn, it's a waste of resources and a lame token attempt at appeasing petty bean counters and scorekeepers who will always find something to complain about.

This entire notion was born of one thing. Wildhammers. TBC opened up Mag'har. Cata opened up all manner of things, Dark Irons, Wildhammers, Dragonmaw. WOD will open up even more with all the clans of Orc we will meet. This is something probably best left to content patches, and certainly not approached with the attitude of fair balanced 1:1 options per faction.

I wouldn't mind if high elves were just another subrace to Alliance. Subraces are a flavor thing, added cosmetics to races you already have, so it matters very little whether or not the factions had equal amount of them. But the thing with high elves is that their "mainrace" is not playable for the Alliance, it's playable for the Horde. So in order for them to be a proper subrace like Mag'har is to the orcs, you would have to give them to the Horde. That of course would be total bullshit lore-wise, most players from both factions would agree high elves should go to the Alliance. But giving them to Alliance is like giving them a whole new race. That's certainly not a petty issue, it definitely is something that has to be 1:1. Blizzard introducing red spacegoats or some other "Alliance" subrace that for some lore-reason sides with Horde instead of Alliance would be the fairest action here.

[cityguy193]

Give High Elves as a subrace to humans or night elves.
Give Leper Gnomes as a subrace to goblins, or fel dranei to tauren or something.

That way both factions get a race model of the opposite faction. High elves can then be given different marking than blood elves, and leper gnomes would look different enough from gnomes.

[Talen]

Look -- insofar as anybody gives a shit about "unique visual identities"

Have you read some of the past discussion on Alliance High Elves? There are players who really care about that. And Blizzard knows that. Players have gotten upset when Blizzard changes the way their character blinks, or when they updated the NElf druid forms.

Visual identity is important to players. And thats a big reason why Blizzard is taking so much care with the new models.
If visual identity wasn't so important, they could just update and be done.

(really, this is a concern you've invented out of whole cloth to bootstrap the "gimme gimme gimme" with snowflake models for high elves to),

It's a "gimme gimme gimme" that makes HElfs less likely. It's a "gimme gimme gimme" that recognises the very real concerns already expressed by BElf players.

How is that a "special snowflake" scenario?

the Blood Elves have a "unique visual identity" right now in that it's a Horde race. The Thalassian elves, the nation of Quel'thalas, it's a Horde race. That there is a smattering of antagonistic other sectarian members that align with the opposite faction should mean about as much for the "high elves" as it does for the Grimtotem*.

You're asking for playable HElfs with the same model as Horde BElfs. You're asking for what is currently a unique player model available only to one faction to be made available to both factions. And you are suing the impact of an NPC faction to justify that.

And you don't think that's unfair?

The Blood Elves will lose what they have that's "unique" if their equivalent of the Defias brotherhood or Grimtotems are made player characters for the Alliance.

What they have that is unique is their visual identity and some of the more recent racial lore. Nothing else.

If anything, compounding that slight by wasting development time

If Blizzard decides to take the unliekly route and give the Alliance HElfs, they'll need to devote development time and resources to that implementation regardless. You are objecting to Blizzard spending resources on a project it would need to devote resources to anyway. Which is why it wouldn't be a waste of development time. Blizzard would be developing a race or sub race either way. Those resourecs would be spent.

on an entirely separate playable model that has absolutely no justification in lore

I'm going to go out on a limb here and will state that, lorewise, BElfs probably come in a very large number of body types. Big, Small. Fat, Thin. Strong. Weak. Young. Old. Tall. Short.

It's on the basis of that - perhaps unreasonable - belief that I suggest that the HElfs could be represented in game by a different mdoel without contradicting the lore that they are the same race. But - you seem insistent. What evidence do you have that the BElfs have one and only one body type?

Simply put - the BElf avatar is a generic representation of the BElfs in the gameworld. Not every BElf looks like that and many would look very different. But it creates a visual identity that is unique to the BElf player avatar. No other player race has that look. And that look is important - to some at least.

Why should they be forced to give that uniqueness simply so that a bunch of Alliance players can get HElfs? You seem to be arguing its better for the BElfs to lose that uniqueness than suggest Blizzard might want to put in some work so that they can keep it.

You might thaink that identity is unimportant, but others do not. They care and they do not wnat to see the BElf look handed off to some Alliance HElfs wannabees.


Two solutions - don't give the Alliance HElfs. In the unlikely event you do give them HElfs, then the BElfs need to keep their own identity...and that requires some sort of new model.

*Or the Shen'dralar -- which when made playable was on the same faction as part of racial reconciliation.

Yes. So? Same race on the same faction got the same model.

EJL

[Deleted]

The Battle.net page says: 90% of the HElves were wiped out in the 3rd War.

The old WoW encyclopedia said: Of the 10% that survived, 90% became BElves, 85% of whom remained in Azeroth (~7.7% of original population).

HElves (1% of original population) were exiled from Quel'thalas or weren't there when the Scourge attacked. Not all of them joined the Alliance.

Also:

In consequence, there are so few high elves left on Azeroth today that they cannot be considered a race in anything other than the biological sense. High elves do not gather in any significant numbers, nor do they act as a coordinated whole. They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals. Indeed, modern high elves cannot even truly be said to have a culture--only a past filled with glory and regret. (Source)

Examples of these small scattered groups are the Silver Covenant, Quel'Danil Lodge, and Quel'Lithien Lodge (before they became wretched).

I'd say that that has to some degree been retconned. Certainly the part about High Elves having no larger goal as a race and not coordinating with one another. The Silver Covenant makes that patently untrue.

[Drilnos]

Give High Elves as a subrace to humans or night elves.
Give Leper Gnomes as a subrace to goblins, or fel dranei to tauren or something.

That way both factions get a race model of the opposite faction. High elves can then be given different marking than blood elves, and leper gnomes would look different enough from gnomes.

Horde...Leper Gnomes?

This suddenly has my full support. Let the Alliance have nassssty elves.

They would be a Forsaken sub race though, not a goblin one. There's a contingent of them who swore allegiance to Sylvanas, and they can sometimes be seen running around Forsaken cities and bases. The undead have sympathy for them, considering them plagued and abandoned by their kin, just as they were.

[cityguy193]

Horde...Leper Gnomes?

This suddenly has my full support. Let the Alliance have nassssty elves.

They would be a Forsaken sub race though, not a goblin one. There's a contingent of them who swore allegiance to Sylvanas, and they can sometimes be seen running around Forsaken cities and bases. The undead have sympathy for them, considering them plagued and abandoned by their kin, just as they were.

It can work for forsaken then. The lore is there. And it fixes the problem on both sides

[Aquamonkey]

I'd say that that has to some degree been retconned. Certainly the part about High Elves having no larger goal as a race and not coordinating with one another. The Silver Covenant makes that patently untrue.

The Silver Covenant is just a small group; they don't represent all HElves. Quel'Danil Lodge and Allerian Stronghold are groups unaffiliated with the Silver Covenant.

[Yig]

Maybe so. But they are loud, they have commented on this before, and they'd have a point. How the race looks is a large part of what draws them to it.

Why should it be given to the Alliance?


You might think it a non issue, of importance to onylk few petty and slefish individuals...but identity is an important apsect of the game and playe experience, Look at the care Blizzard are taking over the model revamp and how much effort they are putting into that.

Identity, look...they matter. And giving the Alliance a race with the same visual identity is an issue.

If you don't think it important - and you don't seem to - then a new model isn't needed. If you do, then a new model is near mandatory.



So - identity is unimportant....you just have an avatar you can identitfy with through lore pride and RP.

Why is it OK for you - but petty and selfish for those who feel the same way about the BElf visual identity?



You believe it shouldn't be a factor. Given the care Blizzard are taking with ther new model updates - alongside various comments at other times - it would seem they disgaree. Either way, the issue here is that your opinion differs from mine - you think visual identity isn't worth considering and I do.

EJL

On the fucking contrary, I take great pride and care in visual identity, but I don't hoard it and covet it jealously like it's some kind of issue of fairness or unfairness. It is my love of visual identity which makes we want people to have Alliance High Elves based on their foundation in the lore and as an interesting development in the story and as extra options for further expanded exploration of visual identity.

Those who make this particular pet issue a negative are in my mind toxic individuals, a pathos corrupted by some odd misapplication of entitlement they seem consumed and corrupted by. They lose as much as they gain. It is their choice to see this as "taking" from what is "theirs". It frankly makes nauseated. I want to play the World of Warcraft, not the World of My team vs you Team. I have no patience for this pseudo tribalism. It's OK for me because I'm not being a selfish hoarder of what I deem mine, I revel in the joy of the choices we have itself and wish to seem them as rich and as reflective of this world's lore as possible.

[Deleted]

The Silver Covenant is just a small group; they don't represent all HElves. Quel'Danil Lodge and Allerian Stronghold are groups unaffiliated with the Silver Covenant.

Yes, but they are coordinating with one another and they are a unified group with a goal. I think opening the Silver Covenant up to be playable as a sub faction for humans would be the best option.

[Yig]

Pandaren are on both factions, but pandaren also came into the game as playable on both sides. BElfs did not. Blizzards also talked about the importance of identity several times in the past...and at least once wrt the Pandaren.

In short...BElf players have an expectation of a unique visual identity that Pandarens do not have. It would be unfair to them to take that away from them. One could make the argument that doing a swap of some sort - giving the Horde access to an Alliance model - would be just as fair and they would have a point. However, Blizzard does not seem inclined to reduce faction identity at this time.


As it is - HElfs are problematic. Their ingame lore is heavily Alliance centric. And with Blizzard confirming that the blue eyed BElfs in game are bugged and one that should have ben fixed, they don't seem a likely candidate for a BElf subrace (Possible, but unlikely). But giving them to the Alliance when they have no natural parent race and when their visual identity would compromise the visual uniqueness of the Horde BElfs also seems unlikely to occur.

That leaves either giving the HElfs a "new" model - either new or a reworked version of one already in game a la Zandalari/Saurok/Mogu - or not bringing in HElfs at all.

EJL

The use of the word unlikely is however something we're on the same page on, we're on the same page in more ways than that, but I find this issue is a springboard for exploring parts of this game Blizzard has in the past not been likely to explore. And when you want to look at a list of hypotheticals where precedent is remanded, High Elves are up there in the line up. However unlikely they are, they are likely to be one of the more unlikely things we see realized should certain elements and stars align.

- - - Updated - - -

The "special snowflake" status is an acknowledgement that BElfs deserve to keep their unqiue identity and as such that decreases the possibility of Alliance HElfs. It also presupposes no equivalent action for the Horde.
The "lore" would be an acknowledgement that every single BElf has the same body type - a supposition I actually do completely reject.
Logic would indicate that there is no reason that HElfs need to have the same model as BElfs and that if the need for visual identity deemed is great enough, it would be logical for Blizzard to allocate the resources necessary....which in turn would make said development an efficient use of development resources. Resources that woudl otherwise be spent - goving the Alliance a new model or race or similar

As it is, many Alliance players would be overjoyed at getting the Horde BElf model as HElfs. That's not something that should be seen as fair to the BElf players. Others would look at this most affordable path and scream rehash. Especially if the Horde was seen as getting something new.

But - are you really suggesting it would be worthwile for the BElfs to lose what they have - a unique visual identity - in order to give the Alliance HElfs on the cheap?

EJL

As much I hate to even dignify this, their special identity comes in having ruddy fel corrupted skin palors, hair colors, and glowing fel green eyes. As well as a flippant and vain swagger in their posture.

- - - Updated - - -

Most of the subraces, including high elves, are already part of the Alliance or Horde in the lore, they just aren't playable in-game.

Too many people do not understand this and obfusticate this issue creating a need for explanations that are not necessary. Nothing more than a narrative in the opening creation introduction and a nod in the opening quest text is needed for the strongest examples here, depending on how exciting and how ambitious Blizzard wants to get with this project.

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't mind if high elves were just another subrace to Alliance. Subraces are a flavor thing, added cosmetics to races you already have, so it matters very little whether or not the factions had equal amount of them. But the thing with high elves is that their "mainrace" is not playable for the Alliance, it's playable for the Horde. So in order for them to be a proper subrace like Mag'har is to the orcs, you would have to give them to the Horde. That of course would be total bullshit lore-wise, most players from both factions would agree high elves should go to the Alliance. But giving them to Alliance is like giving them a whole new race. That's certainly not a petty issue, it definitely is something that has to be 1:1. Blizzard introducing red spacegoats or some other "Alliance" subrace that for some lore-reason sides with Horde instead of Alliance would be the fairest action here.

No, this could easily be used as a vehicle for Blizzard exploring novel development in game mechanics. We know the seriously have now considered an optional body type for orcs, whether or not if it happens, the fact they entertain these things demonstrates we aren't limited in this to the extent people make it seem a universal constant.

I once would have told you we'd never have instant travel to instances, portals linking cities free of charge, deathknights doing everything a warrior can do but arguably better, pandaren being able to choose factions. If a race can share a starting zone, and if they are limited enough in customization so as not to feel bloated, I could see them as a variant Night Elf in their shared lineage or as a variant human in their shared home settlement. If you want to use "it's never been done before" as a reason to argue it will never happen, well thanks for pointing out the obvious to everyone while we're in the middle of discussing a way to explore loopholes around that very issue.

- - - Updated - - -

Give High Elves as a subrace to humans or night elves.
Give Leper Gnomes as a subrace to goblins, or fel dranei to tauren or something.

That way both factions get a race model of the opposite faction. High elves can then be given different marking than blood elves, and leper gnomes would look different enough from gnomes.

No, I disagree. Don't make this about balance and don't create token choices just for the sake of needing an equivocation. You don't balance hairstyles and you don't balance noses and you don't need to balance skin colors or variants in customization. Follow the lore, follow what's desired and makes sense in 20 years of Warcraft's history, and follow a living breathing story, but don't clutter things out of a desire to appease what in the geek's universe are a bunch of loyalist face painting cheerleader football hooligans.