1. #1
    The Patient
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    Minimum dps needed for General Nazgrim

    Hey all, I'm just curious since I haven't been able to find an estimate listed anywhere online, but what kind of dps should people be pulling on average for General Nazgrim? I'm trying to get this number for my RL since we failed so hard on Nazgrim this week and I'm certain it was due to low numbers. I'd like to give him more info on where people need to be before it's worth even bothering. I'll link the logs for the last 2 attempts (no one runs logs usually and it wasn't until the last 2 attempts that I thought to run mine to see what's up). The first attempt on there we're 3 healing, the 2nd attempt I swapped to dps to try and bump the numbers up a bit with my weak ass shadow spec.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ygp43onxkyry6s7s/

    If anyone can pin point in particular where the dps might be having issues that would be great. Problem was the adds were dropping way too slowly and either building up, or when they did go down there wasn't much time to swap back to the boss. Plus raid mechanic/awareness issues that we've already pin pointed to work on. Thanks for the help

  2. #2
    I get the % on Nazgrim to be at about 25% when you wiped with two healers, which seems like it would be a very close number after 8.30 minutes, seeing you hadn't really used BL yet. So I don't think you need that much more DPS. Your average was ~123k.

    Question I'm rather wondering is how did it go with the adds? Why did the tank die on 2nd try? How many Ravagers?

    Edit: Your raids dps on Nazgrim only was 516356,9549 and in order to kill him in 10 minutes you're gonna need 581516 dps on Nazgrim.

    That means you're lacking ~66k DPS on Nazgrim in order to kill him, and you had ½ defensive and 1 battle stance left.

    So about 10-15k more DPS from each DPS is propably needed.
    Last edited by Bllets; 2014-02-28 at 07:24 AM.

  3. #3
    An option would be to Bloodlust on pull, then always kill adds and get through all the waves before pushing him past 10% to kill the final set. You won't get double adds this way, and can squeeze some more damage out. You'll only barely beat him before (or during) enrage, but it's looking that way anyway.

  4. #4
    Well if you wipe 10 min into it you need a bit more dps :P

    As a general point, when you look at dps what counts for most classes is three things:
    1) Keeping your maintance buff up (for example invokers energy)
    2) Keeping your signature debuffs up (for procs and damage) - for instance mage bombs
    3) Using dps cooldowns - ideally these need to line up with trinket procs - its something you get a feel for.

    I'd recommend all raiders use an addon for this. Whether its a weakaura or tell me when. It basically shows how long a dot has left or how long till you need to evocate etc.

    With that in mind (I don't know all classes)
    - Mage used frost bomb which is meh, living bomb or the other one is better for this fight. Regardless of that, in your 10 min wipe he cast it 32 times. It has an 8 sec CD so he could have cast it ~75 times
    - Used alter time only once (4 was possible) and so on

    Pally
    - Used wings once (6 times is possible)
    - His rotation (therefore dps and active mitigation) is terrible. Holy power generators are top priority. With this in mind he needs to cast crusader strike and judgment on cooldown. Lets say at his haste levels the CD of each is 3.5/4.5 sec. He cast 59 CS out of a possible ~170 and 60 judgment out of ~133. That's 184 holy power he missed out on and the damage that each ability does. On top of that 3 holy power gives you a shield of the righteous so that's another 61 whacks off the gcd he could have pummeled the boss with. (SoTR uptime was also low at 17% - he needs to aim for 40%+ and its his lack of HP generators that caused this)
    - His eternal flame (self heal) uptime was ~40%. Needs to be 80%+ Once again, weakauras.

    The prot pala rotation is in the sticky in the pala section. If he fixes it and mashes buttons FAST it will improve his dps and his survivability.

    Shadow priest (you?)
    - Same concept, look at your buff uptimes on vampiric touch and shadow word pain. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...s/9/?s=4&e=609
    - You also cast mind blast only 44 times in 10 min out of a possible ~100.
    - Halo was p much ignored.

    Dunno about the other classes but basically for each class theres the same buffs / signature stuff that needs to be cast on cooldown. Do this and things will look a lot better.

    Finally, abuse the hell out of multi dotting. Priest / mage / lock can all do it. DoT up all 3 adds when they spawn and then focus down your prio target. Those DoT's add up big time over a fight and they give you procs to deal damage with other spells.

    At the risk of sounding like a management consultant - lots of low hanging fruit and it will show in far bigger numbers.

  5. #5
    In addition to the above post there is one thing you can do that will likely surprise with the difference it makes. Get your dps to buy potions and pot 1 sec before pull and hero on the pull while laying into the boss. It should give you enough of a head start to do the kill all adds then push the 10% adds. Could potion again and burn at this point.

    Though this would be overkill if some of your players hit their buttons more, it can make the difference in dps totals while being easy as pie to do.

  6. #6
    dat dps unless they are at like 520ilvl they are severely under performing. Have them look at the forums for their class, and as mentioned above, using pre-pots and second pots on a berserker stance.

  7. #7
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bllets View Post
    I get the % on Nazgrim to be at about 25% when you wiped with two healers, which seems like it would be a very close number after 8.30 minutes, seeing you hadn't really used BL yet. So I don't think you need that much more DPS. Your average was ~123k.

    Question I'm rather wondering is how did it go with the adds? Why did the tank die on 2nd try? How many Ravagers?

    Edit: Your raids dps on Nazgrim only was 516356,9549 and in order to kill him in 10 minutes you're gonna need 581516 dps on Nazgrim.

    That means you're lacking ~66k DPS on Nazgrim in order to kill him, and you had ½ defensive and 1 battle stance left.

    So about 10-15k more DPS from each DPS is propably needed.

    On the 2nd attempt IIRC we wiped because our Hpally died to the mage adds attack+bonecrusher ticks and since we only had 2 the tanks went soon after. I unfortunately didn't think to start logging until the last 2 attempts out of... ummm 5 or 6 I believe, but usually we were starting to get a bit overwhelmed on adds by the time we lusted and once or twice we ended up lusting on defensive stance just to push it because the enrage timer was so close. We use the strat where in the final 10% when he summons the extra adds the pally tank picks em up and we lust and burn boss, but more often than not we wouldn't make it that far. I don't recall there being any ravagers out at all except when we had to push dps through the defensive stage just to try and kill him before enrage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Well if you wipe 10 min into it you need a bit more dps :P

    As a general point, when you look at dps what counts for most classes is three things:
    1) Keeping your maintance buff up (for example invokers energy)
    2) Keeping your signature debuffs up (for procs and damage) - for instance mage bombs
    3) Using dps cooldowns - ideally these need to line up with trinket procs - its something you get a feel for.

    I'd recommend all raiders use an addon for this. Whether its a weakaura or tell me when. It basically shows how long a dot has left or how long till you need to evocate etc.

    With that in mind (I don't know all classes)
    - Mage used frost bomb which is meh, living bomb or the other one is better for this fight. Regardless of that, in your 10 min wipe he cast it 32 times. It has an 8 sec CD so he could have cast it ~75 times
    - Used alter time only once (4 was possible) and so on

    Pally
    - Used wings once (6 times is possible)
    - His rotation (therefore dps and active mitigation) is terrible. Holy power generators are top priority. With this in mind he needs to cast crusader strike and judgment on cooldown. Lets say at his haste levels the CD of each is 3.5/4.5 sec. He cast 59 CS out of a possible ~170 and 60 judgment out of ~133. That's 184 holy power he missed out on and the damage that each ability does. On top of that 3 holy power gives you a shield of the righteous so that's another 61 whacks off the gcd he could have pummeled the boss with. (SoTR uptime was also low at 17% - he needs to aim for 40%+ and its his lack of HP generators that caused this)
    - His eternal flame (self heal) uptime was ~40%. Needs to be 80%+ Once again, weakauras.

    The prot pala rotation is in the sticky in the pala section. If he fixes it and mashes buttons FAST it will improve his dps and his survivability.

    Shadow priest (you?)
    - Same concept, look at your buff uptimes on vampiric touch and shadow word pain. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...s/9/?s=4&e=609
    - You also cast mind blast only 44 times in 10 min out of a possible ~100.
    - Halo was p much ignored.

    Dunno about the other classes but basically for each class theres the same buffs / signature stuff that needs to be cast on cooldown. Do this and things will look a lot better.

    Finally, abuse the hell out of multi dotting. Priest / mage / lock can all do it. DoT up all 3 adds when they spawn and then focus down your prio target. Those DoT's add up big time over a fight and they give you procs to deal damage with other spells.

    At the risk of sounding like a management consultant - lots of low hanging fruit and it will show in far bigger numbers.
    The mage was a pug anyways, so sucks they weren't on top of their game but not much we can do about that now :P I'll bring up the issues with the prot pally asap, the healers have no issue with keeping tanks up in general but yea, never hurts to have better mitigation and dps.

    The shadow priest you linked is our normal shadow priest, Lianora is me, usually I'm heals but since I'm the only healer with a dps offspec and gear I suggested trying to 2 heal it for the added dps. We asked about halo but he claimed the shadow priest he has mentoring him said it wasn't a high priority so he doesn't hit it as often as I thought he should based on guides that I've read. Not sure if he should be changing his talents for that fight as well, maybe picking up "From darkness, comes light" and/or "Divine insight" or "Twist of fate". I have a shadow offset but I'm admittedly not at all good at it, I'd rather heal haha so I'm not sure on the talent changes.

    We also called out our warlock on the lack of Shadowburns happening. Regarding multidotting yea, that makes sense. Our usual group runs with a warlock and a spriest so no excuse not to really.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Museigen View Post
    In addition to the above post there is one thing you can do that will likely surprise with the difference it makes. Get your dps to buy potions and pot 1 sec before pull and hero on the pull while laying into the boss. It should give you enough of a head start to do the kill all adds then push the 10% adds. Could potion again and burn at this point.

    Though this would be overkill if some of your players hit their buttons more, it can make the difference in dps totals while being easy as pie to do.
    We provide potions for that reason exactly and count it down before pull so they SHOULD be doing this.

  8. #8
    I wont comment on the dps for I truly don't play one all that often...But I do Play Prot Paladin and Main is a Resto Druid.

    Your druid is having a hard time keeping up the one buff that there is truly no excuse to ever let fall off...Harmony... 53% up time

    His Glyph choices are subpar... Glyph of rejuvination... yet he didn't cast Nourish once

    Cast only 7 Swiftmends

    Rejuvy being the #1 spell used, his up time was only 88%... it should be near 100% regardless

    Lifebloom only 37% This helps with clearcasting which gives him a choice of either a free Regrowth or Healing Touch ( use it on RG )

    Its odd he has the 2t16 yet I didnt see Sage Mender Mentioned in the logs ( gives a free Healing Touch @ 5 stacks)

    I mean, I know what its like to 2 heal a 10m with a disc, our heals look like crap, but that is just how the cookie crumbles, whats evident is the lack of optimally playing

    He took Incarnation but didnt even cast it once in the 10min fight...*facepalm ... Might as well take Soul of the Forrest and learn how to utilize it with Wild Growth after a swiftmend...wait he only cast 7 of those nvm..He might as well take Force of Nature...nope he would probably forget to click that too...Tell him to just remove those talents all together ( just kidding )

    He took Heart of the Wild Talent... Didnt use it once *double facepalm (granted its a 6min CD...once lol ) The stat buff from that is nice, but I would suggest using Nature's Vigil...wait nvm he wont click it...he is better off with HotW

    I could go further but I am sure you already know since you asked on these boards about dps that your raid as a whole is probably not clicking the way one team needs too. Its frustrating to say the least.

    Anyhow I do wish you the best, and hope you resolve the issues your team has.

  9. #9
    Can anyone PM me and Point me in the right direction of where i could have someone look over my Brewwmaster monk and give me some gear advice?

  10. #10
    Few pointers: Have melee on the mage add, have casters (and healers with range interrupts) on the shaman. Never stand on top of a shaman or behind the shaman (relative to Nazgrim) if you're ranged. If you do, Nazgrim can jump on him and heal, which would increase the dps requirement.

    If someone is doing terrible dps on adds, tell him/her to stay on the boss, at least in zerker stance.

    Use BL during the first berserker stance if enrage timer is a problem, not during the last 10%.

    When the boss is at 15%, check to see when the next wave of adds come. Is it within 10 seconds? Kill that wave first, then push the boss.

    When the boss is at 10%, one of the tanks should go take all the shamans that spawn. Tell your dps to ignore mages/shamans, but root and stun assassins. Make sure no one turns their backs to them.

    That being said, the players seem very, very inexperienced in terms of maximizing dps. A lot of your players seem to almost stop for 0.5-1 sec after casting a spell. They have spamcast and make sure they're either casting or on GCD. Tell your raiders to fix their dps, because this is really, really low for most of the players, if not all.

    Self-explanatory image:



    Invoker's energy is the 15% mandatory damage buff you have as a mage. He didn't have it during his opener burst and he didn't have it during BL. This is incredibly bad and it really has to be fixed. You guys might get past Nazgrim, but if you want a slight chance of even reaching Garrosh, your raiders have to take a big step up.

    As for your shadow spec: If you just make sure your DoTs have a higher uptime, your dps will go up by at least 15%. Focus on the priority, make sure you're never stuck in a situation where you don't know which spell to cast. If you don't know what to do, just push mind flay, but never stand still and do nothing.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  11. #11
    Nazgrim is one of those encounters where having the bare minimum DPS available to kill him makes the fight much harder than if you had even a few percent more. With a little extra DPS, you are able to get the adds under control faster and get back on the boss and you can fully stop DPS during defensive stance, which adds up to less opportunities to fail. If you can execute the mechanics of this fight flawlessly, you could probably kill it with the level of DPS you show in your logs. But players capable of that execution would also probably be churning out more DPS.

    Nazgrim spawns up to 11 waves of adds. 10 of them come on specific timers and the other one comes when he hits 10%. You can wait out all 10 timer waves and still have about a minute left to kill the boss. This is probably the easiest way to do the fight. You focus on keeping adds under control and aim to have the boss at 15% when he exits his third defensive stance (which should be right after you kill the 10th wave of adds). You position the boss where he started the fight, pop every cooldown you have and burn through the last 10-15% of his health while one tank picks up the adds he spawns when he hits 10%. As long as you keep the shaman as far back in the room as possible, he can't heal the boss (one healer will need to be in range to heal this tank, probably) and you should be able to mostly ignore the assassin. If you pull that off and the boss enrages, it's because you don't have enough DPS, but it's much more likely that yore struggling with the other mechanics of the fight.

    Encourage all of your players to do research on their classes and as long as everyone is trying to improve, it will come with patience. The more your output increases, the easier this (and most other) fights will be.

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Durantye's Avatar
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    You have a frost DK as your top dps on Nazgrim of all fights, while you have 3 Multi-dot classes and a mage, especially if the adds are staying up longer the dps in your raid group is no offence but quite weak the warlock gets less blame due to 545 ilvl though still a little low, but your s priests should be wrecking those meters.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Durantye View Post
    You have a frost DK as your top dps on Nazgrim of all fights, while you have 3 Multi-dot classes and a mage, especially if the adds are staying up longer the dps in your raid group is no offence but quite weak the warlock gets less blame due to 545 ilvl though still a little low, but your s priests should be wrecking those meters.
    The warlock should get some blame. A 545 lock should use GoSup on Nazgrim, especially since he's not Havocing every opportunity he gets. Everyone seems to need to better themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but you can't go mommy style and say "there there, it's fine" because it really isn't.

    Edit: I didn't really look if he had GoSup or not, but since he had 85% uptime on the boss, I assume he didn't.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  14. #14
    The Patient
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    Thanks for all the tips so far. The strat we're using (or trying to anyways) is basically what you have all suggested already. The tips for executing the fight regarding add management and whatnot are things we have told the dps repeatedly that they need to focus on. The 2 tanks and 3 healers in our group are pretty solid and last week anyways were what was carrying the whole raid. The few tips I saw specific to our pally tank and resto druid were passed on and discussed and both were happy to have the feedback, I think in particular our druid who is a newer raider is very glad to have the help His goal being to beat me (the disc priest) and I think he's well on his way now, we'll see on Tues :P.

    As for the dps, I appreciate the pointers for the mage for any future mage we might come across but unfortunately that mage was a PuG dps we brought in, so I can't do much to fix her dps sadly. The warlock we were running with was also a fill in for that one night, but sadly our regular warlock is suffering the same dps issues, 560ilvl destro lock pulling an average of maybe 170dps. We know 2 great warlock players so we were able to pinpoint some of his issues but I unfortunately don't have any logs for him. The DK dps was also a fill in for that week, but I didn't see much on him so yay for that.

    The shadow priest you're referring to is sometimes unclear since for the 1 attempt we ran with 2. Mort is the main spriest we run with, Lianora (me) is just a healer who went dps for the last attempt to try and push the numbers. Not that I didn't read over the spriest tips anyways to apply to myself, but since I never run shadow I'm hoping the dps tips applied more specifically to Mort's numbers and rotation since he's there full time as a dps. I didn't see anything on our warrior (also a full time dps) but his numbers have been dropping every week from his previous dps numbers and none of us raiders are familiar with warrior dps so we're not sure what's up there.

    All in all some good stuff, some of the suggestions will make their way into this upcoming week's attempt (bloodlust at the pull) and all the tips thrown out so far have made their way to the appropriate people. We've brought in a hunter and ele shaman for this week's raid and hopefully our 3 full time dps (2 of whom were in this raid) will have figured out their problems. I'm newer to this guild and have been told that dps has always been the issue throughout their entire raiding history so hopefully it's fixed up so people don't need to be replaced.

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