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  1. #21
    Night elf and gnome are both looking particularly good for Alliance races. If I was playing Alliance at the moment I would be strongly considering playing a night elf, models depending of course!

    On Horde blood elf is certainly looking like the strongest option and I will need some nice new troll models to consider staying as such. With the changes being made to CD stacking I am somewhat concerned that troll might end up being one of the weakest races in terms of racial abilities. For example, blood elf offers crit plus some mana regen and goblin provides haste and a movement ability. Troll is providing an amount of haste that will be worth less than what a goblin offers over a lengthy encounter and has no combat improving secondary abilities now.

    Hopefully this gets flagged up during beta.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Amezea View Post
    Hopefully this gets flagged up during beta.
    Yup. It'd be pretty odd for an activated ability that you have to manage, berserking, to go live providing a lower average benefit than passives that require no management. But it could happen, especially since racials don't really get much developer attention most of the time.

  3. #23
    On use abilities should be 'worse' than a static bonus though, because in any fight with downtime it's going to favour the on use. Galakras from this tier as an example - all that time waiting for the next wave of mobs is essentially increasing the uptime of the 'on use' and diminishing the effectiveness of the static stat. It's one of the reasons engineering has been so good.

    Do agree on the secondary function though - do trolls still have less root duration?


    Also for alliance races - Draenei have the potential to be far and away the best, will all come down to numbers
    Redsparowe#2548 <Crayola Inc>, Lightbringer EU

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    On use abilities should be 'worse' than a static bonus though, because in any fight with downtime it's going to favour the on use. Galakras from this tier as an example - all that time waiting for the next wave of mobs is essentially increasing the uptime of the 'on use' and diminishing the effectiveness of the static stat. It's one of the reasons engineering has been so good.
    Yes, and for every time you use berserking during a burn phase, how many times do you think you'll have to use it just on or near cooldown because there isn't a burn phase going on? Or miss or delay the cooldown altogether because it is an activated ability and requires attention and a keybind to use?

    On use abilities should be better because they require attention to use. And that should be a separate issue from cooldown stacking.

  5. #25
    Nothing has been mentioned regarding the Voodoo Shuffle so it should still be present. That means that Trolls end up with a nerfed Berserking which, depending on whose numbers you look at, is either equivalent to 1% haste or worse, Voodoo Shuffle and minor health regeneration as the combat appropriate racials. Ideally, Berserking should perform noticeably better than passive haste. If given the choice between having to manage something and being able to ignore something to reap the same benefits, I'd happily gravitate towards the latter. It is one less thing to be worrying about.

  6. #26
    They still shouldn't be balanced around constant uptime.

    Taking an exaggerated example; say you have an on use 20% haste that lasts 10sec every 2min. Now say there's a fight that stuns you for 110sec every 2min. Your CD is now effectively 20% haste for 100% of the time you can attack. That 1% haste static is of course nowhere near as effective. If they are balanced around 0 downtime then ANY amount of downtime will favour the the on use, even if that's just a few seconds of movement or whatever else.
    Yes there is some additional skill involved in pressing a button but it's not some crazy concept that's mega hard to pull off, you just press it when you can make use of it. From the numbers they gave I'd say it's quite well balanced, I'd suggest that even with 0 downtime the on use will still compete with static haste simply due to lining it up with abilties / execute / procs etc. At WORST it's only slightly behind and every other scenario will likely put it ahead (outside of bad play, like pressing the button just before you get stunned :P)
    Redsparowe#2548 <Crayola Inc>, Lightbringer EU

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmorgrim View Post

    2% crit damage is a double edged sword. Its benefit is going to depend on your crit chance. In the first tier if you only have 18% crit chance, the benefit of the racial is a mere 0.36% increase. It would take a 50% crit rate for 2% crit damage to be a 1% dps increase. Meaning tauren will continue to be one of the worst horde races for shadow. (keep in mind that's plus 2% to your damage bonus, so your crits will do 202% damage, rather than 200%)
    First of all, the racial gives you 204% crits, https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...93687358078977

    Second, It only takes a 33% crit rate to get a 1% boost. This is because at 33% crit chance, half of your healing and damage is coming from critical strikes.

    Third, Crit has diminishing returns built in, since going from 0% crit to 1% is a much bigger gain than going from 99% to 100%.

    When you factor in all of this the Tauren/Dwarf racial moves ahead of 1% crit when you reach 25% crit chance.
    Check out this graph for an illustration:
    https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?....01%29%29+%3D1

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Javaru View Post
    First of all, the racial gives you 204% crits, https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...93687358078977

    Second, It only takes a 33% crit rate to get a 1% boost. This is because at 33% crit chance, half of your healing and damage is coming from critical strikes.

    Third, Crit has diminishing returns built in, since going from 0% crit to 1% is a much bigger gain than going from 99% to 100%.

    When you factor in all of this the Tauren/Dwarf racial moves ahead of 1% crit when you reach 25% crit chance.
    Check out this graph for an illustration:
    https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?....01%29%29+%3D1
    Well, with regards to the tweet, that was actually different from what I originally heard since crit bonus damage was originally just a bonus to the actual crit bonus, not the total damage of the crit.

    While yes, at 33% crit, crits are half of your damage. Your damage itself has only increased by 33%.

    So, 66% of your original damage, is non-crit, 66% of your original damage is crit damage. Meaning a +2% crit bonus (as my original post was referring to), would only be 1.02 x 0.33 of your original damage, so a 0.66% damage increase. However, if it truly does work out to a 2% multiplier, then its double that (being more worthwhile) with a 1.32% increase on your original damage.

    100 damage- no crit/crit bonus
    66 not-crit damage, 66 crit damage - 33% crit
    66 non-crit damage, 67.32 crit damage - 33% crit, 2% crit bonus

    Lastly, the diminishing returns thing is kind of irrelevant, because when you look as any stat like that it works the same.
    Generally, I look at stats in terms of the base damage.

    If you replace "Crit" with Intellect, Haste, Crit Bonus, or Mastery in "Crit has diminishing returns built in, since going from 0% crit to 1% is a much bigger gain than going from 99% to 100%." it will still be true.
    Last edited by Blackmorgrim; 2014-03-07 at 11:48 PM.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmorgrim View Post
    100 damage- no crit/crit bonus
    66 not-crit damage, 66 crit damage - 33% crit
    66 non-crit damage, 67.32 crit damage - 33% crit, 2% crit bonus
    Yes, if you add 66 and 67.32 it is 1% more than 66 + 66, so you got a 1% boost to your damage at a 33% crit rating from the racial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmorgrim View Post
    Lastly, the diminishing returns thing is kind of irrelevant, because when you look as any stat like that it works the same.
    Generally, I look at stats in terms of the base damage.

    If you replace "Crit" with Intellect, Haste, Crit Bonus, or Mastery in "Crit has diminishing returns built in, since going from 0% crit to 1% is a much bigger gain than going from 99% to 100%." it will still be true.
    This is not a good way to think about crit, the other DPS stats do not have diminishing returns built in. To calculate the benefit of the racial you want to figure out how much benefit you will get from 1% more crit chance. If your character has 99% crit chance, going up to 100% would be a proportional gain of ((2*1.00) + (1*0.00)) / ((2*0.99) + (1*0.01) = ~.5%. If your character has 0% crit chance, going up to 1% is a 1% proportional increase in damage.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Javaru View Post
    Yes, if you add 66 and 67.32 it is 1% more than 66 + 66, so you got a 1% boost to your damage at a 33% crit rating from the racial.



    This is not a good way to think about crit, the other DPS stats do not have diminishing returns built in. To calculate the benefit of the racial you want to figure out how much benefit you will get from 1% more crit chance. If your character has 99% crit chance, going up to 100% would be a proportional gain of ((2*1.00) + (1*0.00)) / ((2*0.99) + (1*0.01) = ~.5%. If your character has 0% crit chance, going up to 1% is a 1% proportional increase in damage.
    Right, if you have 99% crit bonus damage, and go up to 100% crit bonus damage, with 10% crit... with doing 100 damage...
    you would have 90 non-crit, and 39.8 crit damage, and would go up to 90 non-crit, and 40 crit damage... a proportional gain of 0.2/129.8 = 0.15% increase in damage, whereas going from 0% crit bonus damage to 1% crit bonus damage, with 10% crit...
    is 90 non-crit, and 20 crit damage, and would go up to 90 non-crit and 20.2 crit damage, or a proportional gain of 0.2/110 = 0.18% increase in damage.

    As I've said, you look at any stat from a proportional gain... they will have diminishing returns built in. Any stat with a linear gain will have 'built in diminishing returns.' The only time 'its not a good way to look at stats' is when you forget to look at both sides of your own arguement.

    If I start with 0% haste and gain 1% haste... its a 1/100 or 1% gain in haste. If I start with 120% haste, and gain 1% haste its a 1/120 or a 0.83% gain in haste.

    If I start with 100 spellpower, and gain 1 spellpower, that's a 1/100 or 1% gain. (spells in WoD have no base damage, based 100% on spellpower), if I start with 1000 spellpower and gain 1 spellpower that's a 1/1000 or 0.1% gain.

    If you look at any stat from a proportional gain... they have diminishing returns built in.

    However, if you're looking at racials in the terms that we start with base crit, then yes, the 1% crit is not a proportional gain of 1%.
    But then, if we use the same point of reference, crit bonus damage is even worse, since out of 100 damage, even if we consider 10% base crit damage, that's 90 +20*1.02 = 110.4 damage. 0.4/110 = 0.36% increase off the bat.

    Bonus crit damage is a pretty weak stat at the start of an expansion... if you're a class that uses crit or has 100% crit chance procs, it would however, be pretty powerful by the end.
    Last edited by Blackmorgrim; 2014-03-08 at 01:22 AM.
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  11. #31
    I agree that the 1% crit will be more powerful at the beginning of the expansion. But I'm saying that the point that the bonus crit damage becomes equal in value is at 25% crit chance. That's much more attainable than 50%. For my frost mage, bear tank and survival hunter this is going to come very quickly.

    Crit bonus damage isn't a stat you can stack so I'm not too worried about the diminishing returns. If you assume we're going to get 3% bonus crit damage from metagems then the breakpoint becomes 26.5% (https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?....01%29%29+%3D1). So stacking crit damage wouldn't be a good idea even if you could.

    I only mentioned crit chance's diminishing returns because I used it in my calculations.

    The racials give you 1% more haste, not 1% more haste rating, so that's 1% more spells cast per unit time so that's 1% more damage/healing no matter what level of haste rating you have. No diminishing returns there. If you got 1% more spell power, that's 1% more damage. 1% more crit chance doesn't get you 1% more damage unless you are at 0%.

  12. #32
    The racials give you 1% more haste, not 1% more haste rating, so that's 1% more spells cast per unit time so that's 1% more damage/healing no matter what level of haste rating you have. No diminishing returns there. If you got 1% more spell power, that's 1% more damage. 1% more crit chance doesn't get you 1% more damage unless you are at 0%.
    Ok, I see where you're coming from now.
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