Does a tanks / healers dps matter in a progression fight?

[Rucati]

Of course it matters. Can you kill the bosses without it? Yeah, probably.

But that doesn't mean it isn't important. You can wipe during progression to enrage with like 3-5% left, healers/tanks can combine for more than that easy if they're doing their jobs right. Even on my Resto Druid I try to do damage where I can, lots of fights have quite a bit of downtime for healers, in fact all of them do I'd say at some point or another, so there's literally no reason to be sitting around doing nothing when you could do some damage to the boss.

[Frozendekay]

In 25man progression it's probably more important for a tank to maximize their damage than a DPS, seeing as they're usually doing more damage. More damage means small improvements increase raid DPS more than if a DPS had made those improvements - and there are many more ways for a tank to maximize damage due to vengeance.

Of course, you don't want to die and waste a pull, but that's what separates the average tank from the great ones.

Healers are less important but still should do what they can. For example, Garrosh P3 burn there's absolutely no damage going out - I expect all the healers to be pushing their damage there. Discs and mistweavers can do amazing damage, but they have to balance that with still actually healing.

[Glurp]

Tank DPS is extremely important this tier. Healer not so much but every little bit extra helps.

[karl1ok]

The dps of both matters hugely.
And to quote the guys in Paragon, if they are struggeling on dps, they ask how many healers they can drop. As you can see on their world first Garrosh hc kill, not only was it solohealed, but he did as much dmg as possible.

[Deleted]

Anybody that answered no has never raided in real progression.

Our resto druid had to reroll mistweaver for garrosh since we needed the extra damage. On so many fight this tier it boiled down to increasing tanks/healers dps to get the boss down.

[Overdispersion]

In my former guild, I can say that we probably killed one or two more heroic bosses per tier just because our tanks had inrecible dps (almost always topped dps charts) and because we had two fantastic dps:ing healers, one being me () and the other a fistweaver. In some fights we could've run with 5 healers instead of 6 though just because 2-3 healers just weren't excellent at their job, so I'd prefer having 5 healers who know how to heal at top level + having an extra dps than trying to compensate for the lack of healing by having an extra healer even though he might provide with some dps. I remember being told by my raid leader to replace my glyph of smite with inner sanctum for extra survivability, but I had to make him understand that that extra damage from smite usually was the difference between e.g. Horridon hitting enrage and not.

[Deleted]

During progression fights, do you believe that a tanks or a healers damage matters? Do you think the amount of dps they do can help? If you wipe at 1-2%, who do you tell to step up. The tanks / healers or the dps?

Dps, no doubt. However, if I was in a top 100 guild and tanks did 100k.. Then yeah, I'd definitely tell the tanks to step up. I'd never tell my healers to step up unless I had a Disc that barely used Smite.

Tanks already do a decent chunk thanks to vengeance.

That's the same as saying dps already do a decent chunks thanks to gear. That being said, tank dps matters a lot. Our tank had 450k on our first Thok heroic kill when solo tanking, peaking at 600k when Thok was at 50% (50% after hitting 30 stacks in p1). If he took completely defensive stats instead, he'd do way less, especially if he skipped a few damaging abilities too.

Our tanks generally have 200-350k dps, depending on the fight. If they did 100-150k instead (stacking stamina and going afk when not having aggro or something, lol) it would be a huge difference for us in 10man. When we did spoils heroic progression, we were missing a bit of dps. We wiped with 1 energy left several times in a row. Our paladin tank switched from haste/mastery to haste/crit and his dps went up by 15-20% thanks to the massive crit increase. Maybe we would've gotten it that try anyways, but that was the biggest increase in dps we could get from a single individual.

[Andaja]

Imho it does matter, but actually it shouldn't.
Like some person above said the encounters are tunned to be beaten mainly by dps, not tanks or healers. On the other hand, some tanks and healers like the damage component of it.

[Twisted51]

Healer dps can help during burn phases, for example: Halo during TOJS on garrosh (3million damage). Or Fire elelemental during any short burns (5million damage). But most healer dps will be sub 20k unless you are disc. This is partially why disc is so popular, as 80k dps from a healer is not trivial. Over a 10min fight thats nearly 50million damage.

Now tank dps on the other hand is very important. Maximizing cd usage w/ vengeance spikes can allow for some absolutely insane tank dps. If you look at the logs you'll find monk and warrior tanks topping the dps charts on fights like garrosh, malkorak, spoils (with buff), Siegecrafter (the damage buff helps). In heroic tanks can easily maintain 300k on a lot of the later fights.

[Banzhe]

During progression fights, do you believe that a tanks or a healers damage matters? Do you think the amount of dps they do can help? If you wipe at 1-2%, who do you tell to step up. The tanks / healers or the dps? Just an interesting topic. Personally, I don't believe the dps from either matters to much. Tanks already do a decent chunk thanks to vengeance. Only a few healers do damage and its a very little amount.

Every possible amount of damage output (regardless of role) matters on early progression fights, though there is a threshold for obvious reasons, but consider that over a typical 6-8min fight with 1000m health, healers can "easily" provide 20m (+/- 2-4) damage done with tanks on the far side of 50+m, combined that is the 1-2% that could be missing.

[Notdev]

Tanking is absolutely in a better place with active mitigation and relevant DPS. Gone are the days where a tank could literally press a 2-3 button rotation, get fed tricks/MDs, and hit a big cooldown once in a while, and no one would notice.

IMO, tanking was supremely boring unless the fight had interesting tank mechanics until they introduced vengeance, and then it got even better with active mitigation. I tanked all of H FL 10 progression and I found every fight but Alysrazor a bore

It's good that tank DPS matters. It makes for a more interesting/fun job, IMO.

For healers its a different case. Unless you're a disc priest, it doesn't matter as much, but you should still throw dots up and a hard cast or two when there is no healing to be done. Not a huge deal, but there's a reason why at the end of many progression kills you'll heal the raid leader call out for everyone including healers to DPS, just to push that last couple percent a little quicker.

Obviously, if you wipe to enrage, you look at DPS to improve first. But if you wipe at .5% and you notice that your Resto Shaman has zero damage done, you might say something.

[Deleted]

Healer dps can help during burn phases, for example: Halo during TOJS on garrosh (3million damage). Or Fire elelemental during any short burns (5million damage). But most healer dps will be sub 20k unless you are disc. This is partially why disc is so popular, as 80k dps from a healer is not trivial. Over a 10min fight thats nearly 50million damage.

Mistweavers compete with priests very well. Our healers (disc/mw) did 160k and 150k dps(e) on Garrosh H.

[britishbubba]

Every bit of dps matters on progression fights. An important push can be decided by something as small as your holy paladin meleeing for mana (is that even a thing anymore?)

Our MW ran the Caster Cloak and a toxic totem on garrosh because he found he didn't need the healer cloak proc, or the proc from w/e healing trinket he was using, and he was using CJL during meta procs anyway so he might as well get some damage out of it. Over the entire fight for our first kill he did 57.58M to the boss with 45.5% of that being CJL from his meta procs.

We didn't "Need" the damage per say, but it certainly didn't hurt us at all. If you don't need to heal at that exact moment, why not do some free damage? 1 Flame shock, one smite, one crusader strike, one wrath, in the end all it can really do is help (on most fights anyway).

Our resto druid had to reroll mistweaver for garrosh since we needed the extra damage. On so many fight this tier it boiled down to increasing tanks/healers dps to get the boss down.

And just to chime in on this. Even now with guilds over gearing garrosh like ours did, healer dps in 10m REALLY matters on the fight. Especially in ToTJS. I'm sure once a group is hovering around 580 (like that will ever happen in a 10m lol) that it wouldn't matter as much, but when you're progressing on the last few fights of the instance healer dps is really important.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Tank damage is taken into account for tuning purposes, so yes it does matter. Healer damage not so much (though I suppose in hardcore progression it still has a meaningful impact), you're usually better off having 1 less healer if the rest of the healers can manage it.

[Deleted]

If you are hitting berserk with everyone alive then your dps are bad.

[Deleted]

If you are hitting berserk with everyone alive then your dps are bad.

Gotta love your useless and elitist (player who thinks he is way better than everyone else) blanket statements.

[Celista]

Gotta love your useless and elitist (player who thinks he is way better than everyone else) blanket statements.

I think he's right. Note that he said "with everyone alive"...unless there are DPS doing something crazy like trying to do a bunch of off-healing, or players are dying due to lack of heals (and not poor execution of mechanics/standing in shit), enrage timers are almost always the fault of the DPS.

[Deja Thoris]

I think he's right. Note that he said "with everyone alive"...unless there are DPS doing something crazy like trying to do a bunch of off-healing, or players are dying due to lack of heals (and not poor execution of mechanics/standing in shit), enrage timers are almost always the fault of the DPS.

He just posts like a dick is all. Trying to convince people he cleared SoO HC on progression with less than 10 wipes per boss and shit like that.

[Celista]

He just posts like a dick is all. Trying to convince people he cleared SoO HC on progression with less than 10 wipes per boss and shit like that.

Oic. Yeah that sounds pretty unbelievable, especially in regards to later wing bosses...

[Deleted]

I think he's right. Note that he said "with everyone alive"...unless there are DPS doing something crazy like trying to do a bunch of off-healing, or players are dying due to lack of heals (and not poor execution of mechanics/standing in shit), enrage timers are almost always the fault of the DPS.

I don't disagree with you.
However note that you wrote "almost always". Blanket statements like his are incorrect.