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  1. #21
    Stood in the Fire FAILoZOFF's Avatar
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    They are loating away from current stat design where some classes benefit just from 1 or 2 stats to more "monkish" style where every stat feel more or less right.
    Still i see no real reason to be happy about 200% crit mod everywhere just not in PvP.
    Also, I am not quite sure about crit heals in PvP, 10%-100% heal crits are just as bad as 100-0% damage. 150% mod across the board would smooth it all at once without the need of all these "altering reality" band-aids like power/resi battle fatigue and now different crit modifier in PvP and PvE.
    There is no benefit for this, at all.
    The only downise i can think of, dragonslayers would have slighty smaller crits too w@nk about, but they are going to have all damage reduced by like 80%(?) so anyway...

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by DreadNeos View Post
    Who says crit is going to be a bad stat? Who uses it right now? Fire mages/MM Hunters/Monks, that's it.
    Frost Mages and Destro locks rely on guaranteed crits to dish out their bursts. This is an effective 25% damage nerf on Chaos Bolt, Ice Lance, FFB, Lava Burst etc. Fire Mages and Fury Warriors will suck in PvP too (they're sometimes semi-viable in low rating, which is kinda fun), same with any class that stacks crit. Simple math tells us crit will be "bad".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    yea, that change is going to reaaaally hurt rogues.

    i think maybe the winners of a nerf like that are mages tbh (outside of stuff like aff locks). obv crazy early to say anything but this is already looking like a very interesting expansion.
    Mages? You do know mages have many guaranteed crits, right? It'll hurt mages a lot more than many other classes, especially the classes that rely on crit bursts.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    Frost Mages and Destro locks rely on guaranteed crits to dish out their bursts. This is an effective 25% damage nerf on Chaos Bolt, Ice Lance, FFB, Lava Burst etc. Fire Mages and Fury Warriors will suck in PvP too (they're sometimes semi-viable in low rating, which is kinda fun), same with any class that stacks crit. Simple math tells us crit will be "bad".



    Mages? You do know mages have many guaranteed crits, right? It'll hurt mages a lot more than many other classes, especially the classes that rely on crit bursts.
    Don't forget that Elemental has a 250% crit modifier now and if they leave it like that and cap crits at 150%, ele is dead fodder in WoD straight from the start without reforging.

  4. #24
    Warchief Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shisui-kun View Post
    Don't forget that Elemental has a 250% crit modifier now and if they leave it like that and cap crits at 150%, ele is dead fodder in WoD straight from the start without reforging.
    They won't leave it like that without compensating us in some way. They never leave classes completely crap for several season in a row.

    Right?
    Right??
    Right???

  5. #25
    I think they're putting the cart before the horse. Yeah, toning down Crit is a way to "address" burst, but they haven't seen the live effects of the CC. That Crit damage could be the difference between something similar to what we have now and something like every game being again AffLock/RDruid on a bad day.

    I can only hope they compensate us, though Monks will probably just switch to Haste or something for initial reforge. With the CC changes and our mobility, we'll just be left to dumping combo points until dampening wins.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shisui-kun View Post
    Don't forget that Elemental has a 250% crit modifier now and if they leave it like that and cap crits at 150%, ele is dead fodder in WoD straight from the start without reforging.
    250%? Is the 50% damage buff a crit modifier? That's a 25% buff in that case, silly Blizzard tricking me with false math.

    But yeah, this doesn't look good for any of the classes that rely on crits.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  7. #27
    I am Murloc! Baracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    250%? Is the 50% damage buff a crit modifier? That's a 25% buff in that case, silly Blizzard tricking me with false math.

    But yeah, this doesn't look good for any of the classes that rely on crits.
    Crit isn't capped at 150% it's reduced by 25% for everyone. https://twitter.com/holinka/status/439228585451077632
    That's 187.5% for elemental shamans unless I'm mistaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbarh View Post
    may i suggest you check out wowwiki or any similar site, it's Grom that orders the murder of Cairne

  8. #28
    Or even better solution: Remove all guarenteed critical hits.

  9. #29
    Pretty soon Chaos Bolt is going to start healing people.

  10. #30
    If you think blizzard is overlooking the fact that lava burst and chaos bolt always crit and would be crippled by the reduced crit damage you dont have your head on straight. Those specs will be compensated, they always are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Egzis View Post
    I swear, if vanilla was released right now with updated graphics, it would be the laughing stock of the decade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    This whole thread explains in a pretty nice manner how can Beliebers exist.

  11. #31
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tauntor View Post
    If you think blizzard is overlooking the fact that lava burst and chaos bolt always crit and would be crippled by the reduced crit damage you dont have your head on straight. Those specs will be compensated, they always are.
    I kinda lost track of how much chaos bolt got nerfed this expansion without proper compensation. If the damage is truly too low, they can just remove that 25% damage reduction is has against players so I'm not worried about that at all.

  12. #32
    *In vanilla and tbc every one had 150% crit modifier, and som spell could be specced for a higher critdamage bonus. In wrath that changed and it was basicly just healing being 150% critmodifier meanwhile all damage was 200%, adn we all know how bursty wrath was =). In cata the lowered the healing alot and changed the way healers had to think when healing, this forced blizz to increase the crit bonus for heals to 200% for it to work in pvp, when mop came everything had 200% crit bonus and we all se how devestating it was for pvp. All crit based specs made it fine in tbc with 150% bonus and will continue to do that in wod. And please stop assuming your class and spec are gonna be played and work they way it does on retail, they will problably change alot of that togheter with stat and crit changes! Sorry for bad spelling! Everyone will be fine!

  13. #33
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deshi View Post
    *In vanilla and tbc every one had 150% crit modifier, and som spell could be specced for a higher critdamage bonus. In wrath that changed and it was basicly just healing being 150% critmodifier meanwhile all damage was 200%, adn we all know how bursty wrath was =). In cata the lowered the healing alot and changed the way healers had to think when healing, this forced blizz to increase the crit bonus for heals to 200% for it to work in pvp, when mop came everything had 200% crit bonus and we all se how devestating it was for pvp. All crit based specs made it fine in tbc with 150% bonus and will continue to do that in wod. And please stop assuming your class and spec are gonna be played and work they way it does on retail, they will problably change alot of that togheter with stat and crit changes! Sorry for bad spelling! Everyone will be fine!
    You're missing the point. We're fine with 150% modifier. The problem is it's for PvP only. A 200% crit adds 100% to your attack while 150% crits only gives 50% bonus. The crit bonus will be double in PvE meaning it'll be a TWICE as better in terms of damage. There are two ways to balance this

    1) Crit rating will balanced with other secondaries according to PvE. It'll be at half value in PvP thus making it the worst PvP stat for almost everyone.
    2) Crit rating will balanced with other secondaries according to PvP. It'll be at double value in PvE thus making it the best PvE stat for almost everyone.

    Guess which ones it's gonna be?

  14. #34
    Warchief Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tauntor View Post
    Those specs will be compensated, they always are.
    Ha! What are you like, you almost had me there!

    I'm sure if Blizzard found the time and moved away from making Mages the best caster in PvP every single season they could probably devote some time to balancing other classes.

  15. #35
    Stood in the Fire FAILoZOFF's Avatar
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    IPOSTSTUFF summed it perfectly, thats exacly what i mean, there is no other way around it if they take 150%crit PvP only.
    Now add stuff like Colossus Smash and Find Weaknes and your main burst windows produce totally different results in PvP and PvE.
    This is very bad. CS and FW should function just that same way in PvE as they do in PvP, of course if you adjust them according to PvE it might not (and it doesnt) work "fine" in PvP but if these were balances for PvP purposes themn they would be also fine in PvE.
    We need less stuff that work differently in PvP and differently in PvE, it introduces a lot of unnedded fuss for no good reason.
    They should either create different game mechanics for PvP and PvE and divide it by servers or make them coherent, mixing will only add confusion and further unbalance stuff.

    And I am not even taking into account possibility that all of todays mechanics will stay as they are now. Previously mentioned 100% crit on LvB for instance. It complety destroys crit as valuable stat for eles today, but taking into account they want all stats to be viable for everyone i dont think it will stay this way, either LvB will have its 100% chance removed or aadded crit scaling like Chaos Bold does, same with Killing Machine. They removed most (if not all) such static %crit chance bonus from for instance rogues (they had bonus crit chance on backstab, ambush and such) for this very reason.

    I oppose this whole "150% crit mod in PvP only" shenenigans just because as many mentioned they would/will have to compensate specs relying on crits in other way, its fools work to go and try to fix thing you just broke yourself, as i said before for no good reason, this problem would not even exist if it wasnt for introduction of this dmb change. 150% are fine as long are they are the "standard".

    The high amount of base Resilience and Battle Fatigue in Mists of Pandaria currently causes characters to feel much weaker in PvP than they do in PvE. To address this disparity, we’re approaching Warlords of Draenor with the goal of shrinking that gap as much as possible. To reduce dependence on Resilience, we needed to increase player survivability against other players, and we chose to do this by essentially doubling (post-squish) player health.
    this is the result of their previous try to separate PvE numbers and PvP numbers, i do not want to face this nonsense all over again in WoD
    just to ilustrate stuff: ret, FoL crit in PvE fight can heal for like 300/400k while noncrit in PvP is something around ~30k, now go and as ets how good are they in PvP, and how well their main defensives (heals) work there ;>

    Essentialy so far, they are removing current bad mechanics pvppower/resil and bfatigue with one hand but introduce another bad mechanics aka 150% crit mod only for pvp with the other hand.
    Last edited by FAILoZOFF; 2014-03-07 at 04:38 PM.

  16. #36
    The Patient
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    I think it's a good change. Healing is absurd atm because its balanced around double crit damage, reduce that spike damage and the necessity for things like base resil and bf go away since healing doesn't need to be so strong.

    Like an op said the burst damage/healing arms race has been going since wrath ever since crit modifier became 200% Spawning bandaid mechanics to allow players to see big numbers in pve but not pvp.

    They are returning the game to TBC levels of damage in terms of output and healers actually having to worry about mana and casting!! Yes it's gonna hurt certain specs but its the lesser of two evils, since a lot of spells being tied to crit can be adjusted via modifiers which is far easier than messing around with stuff that effects everything (bf for instance)

  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire FAILoZOFF's Avatar
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    Thing is, why not reduce the crit mod all over the board to 150% and be done with it. It has been like this (well partialy, melee crits were 200% if i remember) and didn't see anything bad happening because of it. I mean, what good thing comes from a 200%crit mod in PvE that doesn't from 150% one, taking into account adjusting all procs and what not. Granted you will have to have more %crit chance in the world with 150% compared to 200% to do that same dps, but with reforging gone, i can't see us going over 100%, and anything up to this value is FINE. Just as FINE is to have 100% haste or 100% mastery (assa rogues).

    Remember how resi worked in TBC? Yeah it destroyed some specs while at the same time had no impact on others (rogue vs aff/sp...)
    This time ofc it might now be as drastical as dots now crit and such but, why do they need.
    In fact this change is the very return of TBC-resi system.
    +it forces developers to specifically look into almost each (or most) specs separately and see how they perform in PvE enviromend comparing to PvE.
    FOR NOTHING
    and this is my point

  18. #38
    After all this time, they STILL refuse to do it right.....

    1) If the DPS is too high in PvP, it is too high in PvE. Rebalance the PvE encounters accordingly.
    2) If the healing is too high in PvP, it is too high in PvE. Rebalance the PvE encounters accordingly.
    3) If the spell or ability is too strong for PvP, it is too strong for PvE and should not even be in the spellbook. Make sure no PvE encounters require it.

    4) Remove resilience and PvP power as they are both just bandaids..... They need to stop trying to patch over the problem and fix it.

    The more they try to do this, the more they mess it up. The more they tried to balance PvP around small groups, they more they introduced problems and the characters lost their unique feel. Myself and many others still see TBC as the high point in Warcraft PvP despite its short falls which still could have been fixed some and even then, with the exception of a few things (SL/SL Warlocks for instance) 1v1 PvP was still fun and you could win and both you and your opponents characters felt unique in how they played.

    If they really want to keep the bandaids then, then what they need to do is STILL remove PvP Power and change Resilience so it reduces the damage and mana drains by players and at the same time reduce them by the same amount in damage done to PvE mobs so they don't interfere with each other. But all this battle fatigue and all that other crap is just too many bandaids for what should be a fairly trivial fix.

    Loved PvP in TBC, hated PvP in WotLK as it was all burst or bust and resilience was OP. Hated PvP in Cata as I didn't even feel like a player anymore, I felt like a healers pet in 15 minute fights to try and OOM the other guys healer and never even tried MoP, this is just gone from crazy to flat out stupid.

  19. #39
    I'm going to guess 6.0 is going to be a really, really bad time to pvp as elemental.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    I This nerf would mean Lava Burst just always does 25% less damage. Can't say I'm super happy about that.
    Ele crits for 250% not 200%.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    Now some healing spells when they crit can easily heal from 10%hp to 100%. That is not a good gameplay.
    There's only really 1 healer that can do that.

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