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  1. #41
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Ele crits for 250% not 200%.

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    There's only really 1 healer that can do that.
    Which is a Restoration Shaman, and they're not receiving any casting reductions thankfully, because (and I quote): "Shaman has far fewer instant heals than most."

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitheqt View Post
    Why they haven't just balanced PvP, and then balanced PvE around PvP is beyond me. It'd be much less detrimental for both game-types and there'd be no need for PvP Power, Resilience or a 150% critical strike modifier either.

    Everybody wins.
    That sounds good when you are primarily a PVP player; not so much when you are a PVE player, and PVE accounts for a much larger percentage of the player base

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    250%? Is the 50% damage buff a crit modifier? That's a 25% buff in that case, silly Blizzard tricking me with false math.

    But yeah, this doesn't look good for any of the classes that rely on crits.
    And surely Blizzard hasn't considered this and won't do anything at all to address this relatively large and obvious discrepancy.

  3. #43
    I definitely see this as an issue for classes with major guaranteed crit procs/spells and for the value of the stat on the whole. If it's just less effective in PvP compared to PvE with no compensation, then I don't see how it's going to be attractive at all.

    It raises the question of what they actually can do about it. Making crits more likely but less bursty seems like the obvious solution, but that'd just feel weird.

  4. #44
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    That sounds good when you are primarily a PVP player; not so much when you are a PVE player, and PVE accounts for a much larger percentage of the player base

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    And surely Blizzard hasn't considered this and won't do anything at all to address this relatively large and obvious discrepancy.
    The only way it would effect PvE is the small item level increases and that's it. A small enough price to pay for a balanced PvE and PvP game. Also, don't ever say that 'PvE accounts for a much larger percentage of the player base' ever again. That may have been the case a few expansions ago, but definitely not today, not nearly enough to warrant that a PvE player should be given priority over a PvP player.

  5. #45
    Frost mages, ele shamans, rogues, destro locks all these crit heavy classes need damage nerf in pvp. And this is a double nerf to offhealers.

  6. #46
    Bloodsail Admiral LeyrHao's Avatar
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    As a player who only plays 2 chars with high crit chance component and iteration (Feral and Destro), I disapprove this so much...

    Chaos Bolt already deals 25% less damage against PvP before resilience making it hit like a wet noodle... yeah let's make it even weaker.

  7. #47
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeyrHao View Post
    As a player who only plays 2 chars with high crit chance component and iteration (Feral and Destro), I disapprove this so much...

    Chaos Bolt already deals 25% less damage against PvP before resilience making it hit like a wet noodle... yeah let's make it even weaker.
    I feel you. I play Elemental and Destruction, too. Critical heavy classes will definitely need some sort of compensation.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    Frost Mages and Destro locks rely on guaranteed crits to dish out their bursts. This is an effective 25% damage nerf on Chaos Bolt, Ice Lance, FFB, Lava Burst etc. Fire Mages and Fury Warriors will suck in PvP too (they're sometimes semi-viable in low rating, which is kinda fun), same with any class that stacks crit. Simple math tells us crit will be "bad".



    Mages? You do know mages have many guaranteed crits, right? It'll hurt mages a lot more than many other classes, especially the classes that rely on crit bursts.
    yes i do know that. # of damage lost; yes, mages will be hardest hit. i didnt say they wouldnt lose dmg, i suggested that burst classes would be hardest hit (obv), and the most predictable burst via crit as the winner (out of the losers) of this change because they will imo be able to best maximize their crit dmg - making them the most bursty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  9. #49
    The Patient
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    Is it just me or are ppl who play crit heavy specs so set in mind set of when I crit, I must remove 50% of your hp bar?

    This type of RNG damage is why pvp is in its current state. Healers have to be balanced around being able to heal that damage ALL of the time since its RNG and can happen any juncture. Also a major offender of some classes requiring insane burst is the lack of a mortal strike debuff because of the insane healing!

    Yes I understand that ppl play burst crit specs because they are fun (hell its why I play destro in bgs!!) But if we want a more balanced playing field we have to accept that spike damage needs to be toned down, because healers as a result are either insanely overpowered and we need stupid ammounts of cc to burst opponents down or they are weak because they cant react and heal cause someone dies in 3-5secs.

    Its not just the crit specs that are guilty of this either, many a time during trinket procs in arena ive blown cds as affliction and got lucky with a haunted mg chanel where all my dots and pseudo dots crit and the kill tgts hp just melts in 5secs. Thats not the specs fault its RNG and high crit damage modifiers! !!

    Dont ppl see that the specs that will be affected the most will have to have their sustained buffed to compensate? Making you feel more powerful without your one trick pony burst, that gets shut down at high ratings cause its so predictable anyway(why I dont play destro in arena).

    Wouldn't frostmages prefer their frostbolts to hit for meaning ful numbers instead of relying on shatter and spamming icelances/ffbs. Firemages that are not built around one single spell, deep freeze!

    Would ele's prefer their Lvb to do decent damage then follow up with decent Lb's instead of "oh no back to back mastery/echo procs, no rng kill" Enhance "Popping CDs, nvm getting silenced/disarmed/stunned gotta wait 3mins to do some damage.

    I know good destro locks would prefer stronger incinerates and immolate than watching ppl fuck a pillar or getting cc'd during dark soul while trying to cast a 7year chaos bolt.

    Frost dks not gibbing you in 3secs with lucky procs, so maybe they can get some survivability rather than being glass canons.

    Leave a sp to free cast atm, someone dies!! Making training these poor guys a must.

    Just a few examples of how reducing the crit modifier is for the greater good.

    Resil/BF are a whole other post!!
    Last edited by villie; 2014-03-09 at 11:02 AM.

  10. #50
    I agree this should also be 150% in PvE too so they can balance accordingly. I don't like how they're aiming to remove differences between PvE and PvP then go and add this which is only in PvP.

  11. #51
    The Patient
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    I don't get it either, they stated themselves that they wanted the delta between pve damage and pvp damage to be similar then do this.

    With the item squish and numbers dropping overall 150% crits compared 200% crits won't seem like as big a drop. Yes it's still % based but most players (well the majority that don't min max) look at raw numbers, for instance atm a chaos bolt that hits 500k base will crit for 1000k reduce that to 150% and it becomes 750k, 250k less, which because chaos bolt always crits they will see that a huge nerf.

    Squish those numbers so it crits for 10k@200% then 7.5k@150% and that's still the same %tile but in the average players mind it's not such a huge drop in damage especially because its a new xpac and everyone will be getting used to the squish anyways.

    Just seems like a logical opportunity to change the modifiers before ppl become accustomed to them and then cry that they used to do x amount more.

    Encounters won't suffer, would just take a recode on what raid dps designers would expect and adjust enrage timers accordingly.

    If anything should be split pve/pvp wise it should be healing since player output in terms of damage is different than pve boss/encounter output. But the main difference between the two is that bosses don't crit on tanks or with spells, therefore the damage is more streamlined and more predictable than pvp, hence why resil was spawned, not to stop crit burst, just to make it manageable without healers needing to be overpowered, however with item inflation, more cc and stat scaling we have ended up where we are now.

  12. #52
    The only thing stupid Blizzard has been doing so far is trying to buff PVP gear so hard so it competes in world PVP (because that's important, right).

  13. #53
    Why can't they admit already that if PvP damage is too high then PvE damage must also be.

  14. #54
    They already mentioned that crit heavy classes are having their sustained buffed. This change is only meant to prevent RNG crit chains from totally annihilating your opponent. People need to stop applying what Blizzard says into the current state of the game. They are changing everything with WOD.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Why can't they admit already that if PvP damage is too high then PvE damage must also be.
    Because it's relative.

    "Too high" for PVP means that you can die in the opener/under 4-5 seconds of combined pressure with light CC.
    "Too high" for PVE means player output is so high they don't have the ability to make the boss have enough health due to technical limitations (which is already in effect, there is a reason why Thok/Garrosh heal several times in the fight).

  16. #56
    Wow it's almost like Blizzard is aware of this and will balance around this, Just think about this for a se-

    Wait, I'm on mmo-c, let's just mindlessly riot

  17. #57
    The Patient FAILoZOFF's Avatar
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    I still haven't heard 1 single argument that would state why 200% modifiers are so important in PvE and why 150% would hurt it.
    Spells coeficients will have to be changed and adjusted anyway so whats the deal?

    I and as I believe most PvP'ers are glad for 150% crit mod as it smoothens dmg spikes and its a GOOD thing for PvP.

    Lets assume we have a class with just autoattack, and nothing else.

    with no gear he is able to do 1000 dps
    with gear giving him just 25% haste he is doing 1250 dps, a 25% increase
    with gear giving him 25% crit only, with 200% mod, he is still 1250 dps and thats 25% dmg increase
    with gear giving him 50% crit only, but with 150% mod, he is yet again still doing 25% more dmg

    the only change is that in world of 150% mod, to keep crit in line with other stats (assuming each stat is equally valuable for every spec) you will crit MORE OFTEN but for LESS, and this is the only change
    now if you have 2 separate modifiers and you set yet again every stat to be equal to every other in PvE, then you will have to rebalance every spec for PvP to somehow keep crit "in line" with others, or just leave it be and then 10% crit is 50% worse than 10% haste right away, where they should be more or less equal depending on how each invidual spec utilises each stat (for instance, right now; crit is loosing its value for elementals and frost dks are they have "build in" crits)

    I don't hate its just because i like to hate things, i hate it because it makes no sense and introduces a balancing hell without giving actually any kind of good reason to do that in first place. Where 150% mod is even nice to have in PvE because for instance if you heal, difference between you crit healing and not crit healing might be a difference between dead or alive tank. Its batter to have higher achance of something happening but of lesser efffect than low chance but for a greater one.
    Imagine 1% chance on dealing 1000% more damage
    and 10% chance on dealing 100% more damage
    From maths PoV its that same, but in "real live" someting totally different.
    Its exaggerated, sure but it shows whats wrong with that logic.

  18. #58
    uhm, this must really hurt moonkins and destro locks. A starsurge/chaos bolt that only does 150% crit? They rarely get a cast off...ppl like big numbers.

    So, dots only - all the way?

    Spec variation in pvp is going to be one sided.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    You have to keep in mind that some burst specs are one trick ponies. Take away their burst and they're left with nothing, unless the specs are fundamentally changed.
    Mage still have an insane amount of cc and if we get more consistant damage in exchange it might workout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jalopy View Post
    The only thing stupid Blizzard has been doing so far is trying to buff PVP gear so hard so it competes in world PVP (because that's important, right).
    Dude wtf game do you play world pvp is serious and you can get glad or a heroic garrosh achievement from it. /sarcasm.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by LeyrHao View Post
    As a player who only plays 2 chars with high crit chance component and iteration (Feral and Destro), I disapprove this so much...

    Chaos Bolt already deals 25% less damage against PvP before resilience making it hit like a wet noodle... yeah let's make it even weaker.
    You can't just slap WoD changes on the live version of our spells and then complain about it.

    A lot of tuning will happen, beta isn't even up yet.

    Patience.
    It's almost always the wrong argument to compare yourself to the highest DPS specs out there. "Middle of the pack" is actually where everyone is supposed to be. -Ghostcrawler
    DPS Tuning
    •Yes, this is a roller coaster. Our process is to try things out and iterate if we don't like them. If the churn offends you, just hang on for another week or two.

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