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Voters
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  • (Westerner) Military intervention on the side of Ukraine.

    124 14.85%
  • (Westerner) Sanctions or other actions against Russia.

    257 30.78%
  • (Westerner) Do nothing, Ukraine is not our problem.

    332 39.76%
  • (Easterner) Military intervention on the side of Ukraine.

    9 1.08%
  • (Easterner) Sanctions or other actions against Russia.

    18 2.16%
  • (Easterner) Do nothing, Ukraine is not our problem.

    26 3.11%
  • (Third world) Military intervention on the side of Ukraine.

    3 0.36%
  • (Third world) Sanctions or other actions against Russia.

    5 0.60%
  • (Third world) Do nothing, Ukraine is not our problem.

    8 0.96%
  • (Russian) Pull completely out of the state of Ukraine.

    14 1.68%
  • (Russian) Restore Viktor Yanukovych as president of Ukraine.

    5 0.60%
  • (Russian) Annex Crimea and other Russian territories and leave the rest of Ukraine alone.

    34 4.07%
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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Schuetze View Post
    If we do that we will one day wake up with Russia on our doorstep.

    Don't fool yourself, Europe will never truly be peaceful. We live in a barrel of gunpowder ready to explode, it just needs a spark and this situation in the Ukraine might turn into that spark.

    Europe should really spend more money on their own defense. I hope this opens the eyes to many people that think that we live in some sort of "war free utopia".
    Little fact.. No democratic nation has ever gone to full scale warfare with another. Hell even to a declaration of war with another. Politicians are not stupid. They will not risk an all out world war over "trivial" things.

    n.b. Im not calling the issue trivial but in the scope of you claiming mass warfare from it. its not going to happen. The issue is not nearly important enough to spark war

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsubodia View Post
    Little fact.. No democratic nation has ever gone to full scale warfare with another. Hell even to a declaration of war with another. Politicians are not stupid. They will not risk an all out world war over "trivial" things.

    n.b. Im not calling the issue trivial but in the scope of you claiming mass warfare from it. its not going to happen. The issue is not nearly important enough to spark war
    However, when one of the nations is authoritarion or dictatorship, things look quite different. It isn't about delcaring war, it's about showing that UE is able to strongly react in crisis situations.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Schuetze View Post
    If we do that we will one day wake up with Russia on our doorstep.

    Don't fool yourself, Europe will never truly be peaceful. We live in a barrel of gunpowder ready to explode, it just needs a spark and this situation in the Ukraine might turn into that spark.

    Europe should really spend more money on their own defense. I hope this opens the eyes to many people that think that we live in some sort of "war free utopia".
    While I agree, it should also be noted that the EU's spending on defense is higher than that of Russia, and the EU's military is larger, even if it isn't as centralized.

    Everyone seems to be under the assumption that the EU should... I dunno; be afraid of Russia, and watch and watch but not act, really. In fact, things are the other way around. Russia should be afraid of the EU. But because everyone looks at this from that skewed angle, Russia can just do whatever the hell it pleases, and the EU looks to be too pussy (scaredy cat, which is where the expression comes from) to do anything to protect itself or others. -_-

    Edit: Again, I'm not voting for going to war. But I do believe the EU should at least do some military intervention on the Ukraine's behalf.

  4. #204
    Herald of the Titans Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondzik View Post
    Just checked, there are 3 people from Svoboda in the current government. The prime minister is from Batkivshchyna, some more are from this or other parties and the majority of ministers has no party...

    Russia broke international agreement, doesn't matter why, it should be punished, world should show that one can't just break international law/agreements without consequences.
    And how will the "world" punish them? They hold the world's largest known natural gas reserves, which will become even more in demand as time goes on. So there is really nothing the rest of the world can do but complain. And Russia should ignore them anyway and go ahead and make sure the Russian ethic peoples in the Ukraine are safe. For sure the US should stay out of it. We have already spent too much money in other countries.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    While I agree, it should also be noted that the EU's spending on defense is higher than that of Russia, and the EU's military is larger, even if it isn't as centralized.

    Everyone seems to be under the assumption that the EU should... I dunno; be afraid of Russia, and watch and watch but not act, really. In fact, things are the other way around. Russia should be afraid of the EU. But because everyone looks at this from that skewed angle, Russia can just do whatever the hell it pleases, and the EU looks to be too pussy (scaredy cat, which is where the expression comes from) to do anything to protect itself or others. -_-

    Edit: Again, I'm not voting for going to war. But I do believe the EU should at least do some military intervention on the Ukraine's behalf.
    Pfft. Russia is not afraid of EU. Besides them and the EU are not stupid enough to start a nuclear holocaust. No one would win.

  5. #205
    Sanctions wont do shit. NATO needs to step in and help Ukraine. Save them from this military hostile invasion.
    Russia needs to be stopped. End of bullshit empty threats.
    Sadly we need to act with force and end this bullshit that Russia is doing they are threat to the rest of the world.

    To all the idiots (Yes, infraction me - Im fine with that) who vote "do nothing its not our problem" - it is your problem, now its not too big, but soon it will grow. You cannot allow Russia to grow in power like this. You are fools.
    Last edited by Rapti; 2014-03-02 at 01:50 PM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondzik View Post
    Are your aware that 3 of those states are currently NATO and EU members as well as some more countries, which were before under USSR influenace?
    I know , just my point since what did we gain as the EU from them joining ? all of those countries are costing the EU money so all they are is a drain on the EU budget. Good for them ofc but as a citizen from a country that is actually a net payer to the EU I see no benefits to having had them join what so ever , not economic , not social, not anything in anyway shape or form.

  7. #207
    The most principled stance--- only do what you're willing to pay for. If you don't want to pay to fight against Russia or pay for the costs of the silly sanctions that can be made then vote for the cheapest alternative.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    And how will the "world" punish them? They hold the world's largest known natural gas reserves, which will become even more in demand as time goes on. So there is really nothing the rest of the world can do but complain. And Russia should ignore them anyway and go ahead and make sure the Russian ethic peoples in the Ukraine are safe. For sure the US should stay out of it. We have already spent too much money in other countries.
    Russia needs to sell gas, stoping trade would do more damage to Russia than to other countries. Russians ingoring them means Russians breaking agreement between them and UK, USA nad Ukraine. Do you think that breaking inetranational law should have no conquesneces? You know, there were people in histroy who could that and world didn't react. They were Adolf Hilter nad Joseph Stalin.

    BTW Russian intervention reminds me of Hungary or Czechoslovakia intervention.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsubodia View Post
    No democratic nation has ever gone to full scale warfare with another. Hell even to a declaration of war with another. Politicians are not stupid. They will not risk an all out world war over "trivial" things.
    Not quit right, the exception that confirms the rule, the democratic Allies did declare war on the democratic Finland in WW2. but no
    acts of war was done between the democratic Allies and Finland. But I agreed real democracies do not wage war on each other.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondzik View Post
    However, when one of the nations is authoritarion or dictatorship, things look quite different. It isn't about delcaring war, it's about showing that UE is able to strongly react in crisis situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    While I agree, it should also be noted that the EU's spending on defense is higher than that of Russia, and the EU's military is larger, even if it isn't as centralized.

    Everyone seems to be under the assumption that the EU should... I dunno; be afraid of Russia, and watch and watch but not act, really. In fact, things are the other way around. Russia should be afraid of the EU. But because everyone looks at this from that skewed angle, Russia can just do whatever the hell it pleases, and the EU looks to be too pussy (scaredy cat, which is where the expression comes from) to do anything to protect itself or others. -_-

    Edit: Again, I'm not voting for going to war. But I do believe the EU should at least do some military intervention on the Ukraine's behalf.
    Military intervention will do nothing but inflame the situation. Do people really want to see Ukraine split into two over this? Do you also think Russia would allow EU combined forces right on its doorstep without saying anything?

    The EU should react yes. But the EU already made it worse by getting involved to begin with to push their own political agenda in Ukraine. The current state of the world right now seems to be. Potion of population not happy with government.. ok lets burn shit until we get what we want.

    This is a situation that needs to be resolved by Ukraine and Russia independently. Not through getting everyone and their nan involved. The minute the world starts getting involved in this is when it will all rapidly slide downhill. I can guarantee you Russia will not give up those military bases. They have fought three wars for them so far and i wouldnt guarantee they wont do it again

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapti View Post
    Sanctions wont do shit. NATO needs to step in and help Ukraine. Save them from this military hostile invasion.
    Russia needs to be stopped. End of bullshit empty threats.
    Sadly we need to act with force and end this bullshit that Russia is doing they are threat to the rest of the world.

    To all the idiots (Yes, infraction me - Im fine with that) who vote "do nothing its not our problem" - it is your problem, now its not too big, but soon it will grow. You cannot allow Russia to grow in power like this. You are fools.
    The Ukraine hasn't been invaded. and you are clearly unhinged if you think going to war with Russia is a good idea

  11. #211
    Mechagnome
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    do nothing

  12. #212
    ITS HAPPENING GUYS @_@

    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    Not quit right, the exception that confirms the rule, the democratic Allies did declare war on the democratic Finland in WW2. but no
    acts of war was done between the democratic Allies and Finland. But I agreed real democracies do not wage war on each other.
    Part of the problem atm as i see it is the usual media hyperbole. Russia = bad.. Ukraine = harmless puppies who have done nothing wrong.

    Which isnt really correct

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubalus View Post
    I know , just my point since what did we gain as the EU from them joining ? all of those countries are costing the EU money so all they are is a drain on the EU budget. Good for them ofc but as a citizen from a country that is actually a net payer to the EU I see no benefits to having had them join what so ever , not economic , not social, not anything in anyway shape or form.
    EU gained new markets, more available employees, reduced Russian influence in the region. For example import/export between Germany and Poland increased significantly after joining EU.

    BTW In my opinion western Europe owes something to eastern-central Europe for selling it to USSR despite alliances before II World War.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondzik View Post
    EU gained new markets, more available employees, reduced Russian influence in the region. For example import/export between Germany and Poland increased significantly after joining EU.

    BTW In my opinion western Europe owes something to eastern-central Europe for selling it to USSR despite alliances before II World War.
    new markets = good
    more available employees.. we already have enough unemployed. we dont need to add to the number
    reducing Russian influence... oh yeh now i see it. Russia the big bad.

    After selling it to the USSR? yeh ok. continuing a war for another 40 years would have been a much better ending..

  16. #216
    Mechagnome Texaswarrior's Avatar
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    Wie always chuckle when I read something like "EU forces on Russia's doorstep" or even just "eu forces". There's no such thing as EU forces, there's several, often uncoordinated and/or outdated national armies.

    The EU can't even decide which size of shower heads to impose upon the people, let alone on military intervention. Nothing will happen.
    ~ Yes, I'm a Dinosaur ~

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsubodia View Post
    Part of the problem atm as i see it is the usual media hyperbole. Russia = bad.. Ukraine = harmless puppies who have done nothing wrong.

    Which isnt really correct
    Of curse the conflict is not black and white but a scale of gray, but it was Russia who deliberately increased the temperature with all troop movements/saber-rattling

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    Of curse the conflict is not black and white but a scale of gray, but it was Russia who deliberately increased the temperature with all troop movements/saber-rattling
    Yes. But this was done in response to a perceived threat to their naval and military bases in the Crimea. Its better to rattle than do nothing and then have to actually go in with troops

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondzik View Post
    BTW In my opinion western Europe owes something to eastern-central Europe for selling it to USSR despite alliances before II World War.
    selling lol? it was slavic russian territory

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsubodia View Post
    new markets = good
    more available employees.. we already have enough unemployed. we dont need to add to the number
    reducing Russian influence... oh yeh now i see it. Russia the big bad.

    After selling it to the USSR? yeh ok. continuing a war for another 40 years would have been a much better ending..
    You see, every time in the history when Russia had somethng to do with my country, it ended badly for my people, so yes, Russia usually was the big bad for a region.
    Strange, those people found job, where locals didn't want to work. If someone not knowing language or people gets into your country and steals you a job, sorry, there's something wrong with you.

    Oh yes, better betray those countries whose soldiers were fighting for western Europe like Poland or Czechoslovakia, leave them for 50 years under communistic regime and later say that getting them into EU was bad for western countries and EU shouldn't do it...

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