WoD's proposed Mistweaver changes

[Totaltotemic]

I think I understood you properly. I was disagreeing that it was a HUGE nerf. It's clearly strictly worse, so a nerf indeed, but I don't think it's that meaningful in critical situations. (Remember, the bigger nerf was that SCK stopped spawning as many GotS orbs.)

Oh, yeah, the SCK one itself wasn't a big nerf at all, but the Healing Rain was definitely was because the ticks are far less frequent. This affected SCK as well, but when the ticks are at most less than 2% of someone's health it doesn't really matter that much.

[Haemon90]

So atm on Beta what is every1 using as far as their talents? tried using Chi Explosion but it literally just isn't worth using to me. Then I went with Pool of Mists but even in a 5M the healing from Uplift is just complete shit. was only able to heal for about 2-3K per uplift. was pulling 14K on the last boss in Auchindoun and just couldn't for the life of me keep every one up.

Tank kept standing in the damn AoE with the warrior so not all of it was my fault lol

[Brilynn]

I think it's basically a consensus that PoM is the best talent of the 3 to take. CE may be good if you're doing a fight where everyone is stacked always all the time forever. But otherwise, PoM gives you the ability to time your AoE healing a little more reliably than the way it works now. BotS looks nice, but doesn't do enough healing to bother with the talent. At least that's what I've been taking away from the conversation.

[Geodew]

I think it's basically a consensus that PoM is the best talent of the 3 to take. CE may be good if you're doing a fight where everyone is stacked always all the time forever. But otherwise, PoM gives you the ability to time your AoE healing a little more reliably than the way it works now. BotS looks nice, but doesn't do enough healing to bother with the talent. At least that's what I've been taking away from the conversation.

He's talking about dungeons though, and the point of PoM is to give you control and extra ReMs in a raid setting. CE is bad for dungeons too, IIRC (but EM was nerfed, so idr), which means take BotS for dungeons

[Monkioh]

I think what he means is that the Smite/Holy Fire itself is doing no healing, meaning you'd be emptying a lot of GCDs doing zero healing, and not much more damage than Crane would do anyways.

This is indeed what I meant.

Yeah, but is the healing on full-health targets equal to the same that the injured targets were healed for, or do they not get healed at all, or do they get healed as if it hadn't split at all? In any case it looks like Uplift's overheal % listed on logs is super abnormal

The full-health overheal amounts were the same as the effective heal amounts.

So atm on Beta what is every1 using as far as their talents? tried using Chi Explosion but it literally just isn't worth using to me. Then I went with Pool of Mists but even in a 5M the healing from Uplift is just complete shit. was only able to heal for about 2-3K per uplift. was pulling 14K on the last boss in Auchindoun and just couldn't for the life of me keep every one up.

For normal 5 mans, you're pretty safe taking Chi Explosion and just fistweaving. You'll probably be first or second on dps and have plenty of healing for the group. Some bosses you'll just have to go Serpent to heal, but you don't necessarily need to use Chi Explosion if you take it. PoM and BotS do next to nothing for your 5 man healing, but BotS is the best choice if you don't like Chi Explosion.

[Geodew]

The full-health overheal amounts were the same as the effective heal amounts.

So then my point is, in theory, its overhealing should definitely be higher than other abilities, even if it worked like CoH 2.0, because even when you're doing maximum effective healing with it, it's still generating "overheal" events

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For normal 5 mans, you're pretty safe taking Chi Explosion and just fistweaving. You'll probably be first or second on dps and have plenty of healing for the group. Some bosses you'll just have to go Serpent to heal, but you don't necessarily need to use Chi Explosion if you take it. PoM and BotS do next to nothing for your 5 man healing, but BotS is the best choice if you don't like Chi Explosion.

Some people were saying that FWing is STILL not strong enough to heal dungeons with. Of course this will probably change quickly at launch because you're scaled down to low item levels on beta AND dungeons are PURPOSEFULLY overtuned for the length of beta so the mechanics get tested instead of facerolled through.

[Totaltotemic]

So then my point is, in theory, its overhealing should definitely be higher than other abilities, even if it worked like CoH 2.0, because even when you're doing maximum effective healing with it, it's still generating "overheal" events

Interesting then. Why might Uplift not be generating significantly more overhealing then?

[Geodew]

Interesting then. Why might Uplift not be generating significantly more overhealing then?

Well, (a) I was saying that he might be wrong (simply because logic says he should be, right?) but I don't really have time to go through a bunch of logs right now, and (b) he never really said what he was comparing it to; CoH probably has less overheal than Rejuv or ReM on most fights.

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BTW if we're doing well in Highmaul and BRF only because all the aoe damage is raid-wide, we'll still faceplant in 6.0 pre-patch Siege lol

Except it'll be better than live at least, Jade Mist and Pool of Mists are some powerful band-aids

[Lovestar]

BTW if we're doing well in Highmaul and BRF only because all the aoe damage is raid-wide, we'll still faceplant in 6.0 pre-patch Siege lol

Except it'll be better than live at least, Jade Mist and Pool of Mists are some powerful band-aids

Don't you not get either bandaid during the prepatch, short of the MS trinkets? Have fun

But yeah prepatch gaps are usually dunce-cap zones for lots of specs, and Blizzard has a history of responding with: "/shrug, buy the xpac"

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Compensation is a good idea, your particular example is not. Waste spheres on purpose -> gain +300% healing buff -> curb stomp other healers

I'd rather just have Spheres summoned less often, but detonate in an AoE wave, rather than the oddball "it's a radius effect... that randomly hits one person".

yo dawg we heard you like RNG meme generator... etc etc blah blah

I think it would honestly just feel better to see your spheres splash over a group of people on Detonate / expire. Also, it's interesting that one player could voluntarily be the 'sacrificial lamb' (because they were closest by happenstance) that triggered the splash for everyone near them.

[Totaltotemic]

I'd rather just have Spheres summoned less often, but detonate in an AoE wave, rather than the oddball "it's a radius effect... that randomly hits one person".

yo dawg we heard you like RNG meme generator... etc etc blah blah

I don't think MW needs yet another mechanic that's worthless for spread healing but overpowered for stacked healing. GotS doesn't even need to be that complicated to be useful, the spheres + Detonate interaction is okay enough for a mastery. It just needs to not have such ridiculously low numbers that automatically make mastery by far the worst stat a MW could ever see on gear. The mechanics can be cleaned up later, but we won't even know how much the mechanics are hurting its value until its value makes sense.

[Lovestar]

yeah yeah you're right, I had some counterpoints about that criticism but — debating hypothetical improvements that are basically out of the question for Tier 17 is a completely counterproductive temptation right now

Probably (and this isn't news, I'm sure) the best starting place would be to just simplify Mastery's effects down to something more blatantly-understandable / obvious instead of the weird set of sieves it gets strained through on the way to its actual end effect

[vancheng]

Compensation is a good idea, your particular example is not. Waste spheres on purpose -> gain +300% healing buff -> curb stomp other healers

Yeah, well I was not trying to make a perfect numerical balance =D
Just throwing out idea. Thought its not very productive at this point , but maybe some day blizz will read this actually (not in my dreams)

[dileria]

Many People say that crane stance is bad and practicly shit if its only 50/50 [ 50% of a regular healer and 50% of a normal dps-if i get that right ].
But in my opinion this is extremly strong already, considering you can take 2 Fistweaver and have a revival more compared to a 'normal' mistweaver and a regular dps.
We are extremly versatile, so if rly needed we can switch to full heal , even if delayed (arent mechanics something you normally can prepare for )
And seeing supliftz crane stance logs ... 2 Fistweaver > 1 Mistweaver+1Dps. At least according to numbers.
Am i missing something :?

(i'm not a hardcore progress raider, neither am i a math-wizard, but i followed this whole thread since page 1 - and i think we are not half as bad as people say :/ )

[Lovestar]

(i'm not a hardcore progress raider, neither am i a math-wizard, but i followed this whole thread since page 1 - and i think we are not half as bad as people say :/ )

There's some super-huge problems just waiting to happen, but yes, there's a lot of blind negativity drowning out the rational thought at this point.

Again I think part of it is sheer frustration/bitterness at the whole "Hey, we secretly replaced your Mistweaver with Serpent Crystals, choke it down or reroll, enjoy " delivery from Blizzard.

Overall though if you tune out what MW 'used to be' and objectively take what's on offer right now (at level 100, in T17, with MS gear + Pool) — no, it's not as bad as the apocalyptic disaster some discussions make it seem like to a casual observer.

[Dakara]

From what I've seen, the 50/50 Crane Stance seems to be too weak as either a DPS or healer in anything but farm content. However, if you take CE, and use it as your primary Chi dump in crane, you'll do less DPS and more HPS (60/40, maybe 70/30?).

The problem then, of course, is that CE is garbage in Serpent, so in order to FW reliably, you've traded throughput in serpent, where in anything but farm content, you'll spend most of your time.

[Geodew]

Many People say that crane stance is bad and practicly shit if its only 50/50 [ 50% of a regular healer and 50% of a normal dps-if i get that right ].
But in my opinion this is extremly strong already, considering you can take 2 Fistweaver and have a revival more compared to a 'normal' mistweaver and a regular dps.
We are extremly versatile, so if rly needed we can switch to full heal , even if delayed (arent mechanics something you normally can prepare for )
And seeing supliftz crane stance logs ... 2 Fistweaver > 1 Mistweaver+1Dps. At least according to numbers.
Am i missing something :?

(i'm not a hardcore progress raider, neither am i a math-wizard, but i followed this whole thread since page 1 - and i think we are not half as bad as people say :/ )

The idea is that Revival and Life Cocoon aren't (yet?!) good enough utility to even come close to justify bringing two Mistweavers instead of, say, one Resto Druid and one DPS with decent utility instead.

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There's some super-huge problems just waiting to happen, but yes, there's a lot of blind negativity drowning out the rational thought at this point.

Are you talking about me? Because there were never any fixes, just band-aids, i.e. changes that ameliorate the problem without actually addressing it fully, and I stand by that.

For the record, not intending to be hostile, here, just saying that an Uplift buff didn't magically fix the spec's mechanics

[Lovestar]

Are you talking about me?

No, of course not. MW is a total mess.

It's just, there's a huge difference between "hot mess that kinda works, as skilled players keep trying to say before being drowned out and ignored" and "completely broken mess that is less useful than bringing a Feral Druid for off-target Rejuvs" (which is the impression someone stumbling around might get just by skimming pages, especially after a new Beta build that doesn't airdrop a crate of buffs in).

The irony is (as Total points out) the official forums often have the opposite problem, where everyone's insane and sucking down intravenous Valium and thinks MW is in a state of Elysium now.

Between the 2 sandwich halves I don't know if any shreds of useful feedback actually cross the dev-brain barrier anymore.

[Totaltotemic]

Are you talking about me? Because there were never any fixes, just band-aids, i.e. changes that ameliorate the problem without actually addressing it fully, and I stand by that.

For the record, not intending to be hostile, here, just saying that an Uplift buff didn't magically fix the spec's mechanics

It didn't magically fix the entire spec, but we're pretty far past the point of mechanical changes for this round of beta. The next opportunity won't be until 6.1 testing, which in all likelihood is more than 4 months away.

Don't get me wrong, continued analysis and dissection of the spec is important for the next round, but I think it's all getting kind of futile at the moment. I know I'm personally giving MW problems a rest except for GotS (and even then I acknowledge that only numbers are likely to change, if anything). I think I've done enough ranting about MW over the past 6 months, and annoyingly I think a simple comparison of L45 talents got more done in one day than the entire sum of MW discussion did in the past half a year.

I don't think Lovestar's comment was aimed at you (more-so the people popping up in the past day or two that completely missed the "oh hey the Uplift buff was actually enormous" discussion from the weekend), but I do think there's a grain of truth that applies to all of us that we've done our parts and just have to accept that this is the way things are going to be for the next few months.

[Sard]

Looking at it as someone who plans on playing BrM/WW in the expansion, MW is ok-enough-ish for me to feel like if I need to play MW at some point during 6.0 (I'll be in a sort of casual 2 day a week raid group), I will be able to make it work. Given how awkward some of the MW mechanics remain, Pool + the uplift buff mean that you can get by.

[jadedmists]

Are you talking about me? Because there were never any fixes, just band-aids, i.e. changes that ameliorate the problem without actually addressing it fully, and I stand by that.

For the record, not intending to be hostile, here, just saying that an Uplift buff didn't magically fix the spec's mechanics

I agree we have had bandaids, we need mechanical fixing.