WoD's proposed Mistweaver changes

[Totaltotemic]

I don't notice in heroics/mythic because my fellow healers are not trash and do not let single people die. Also I am totally not the person to ask if mw is considered a bad healer.


The job of a monk is to make sure the raid stays at a steady high hp level. If 1 person drops down to sub 20% what can we do? We can expel harm or soo/surging them, not optimal when other healers can do a better job at that, if the dude dies it's whatever chances are he stood in something or got wombo comboed by some ability chain.

He's not talking about raids, for some reason he's exclusively concerned with class balance in 40 man AV. I don't know why, because no one is balanced around that, but that's what he's talking about, not content the game is actually balanced around. You know, the kind of content where people dying every 5 seconds is abnormal.

[Entropy]

He's not talking about raids, for some reason he's exclusively concerned with class balance in 40 man AV. I don't know why, because no one is balanced around that, but that's what he's talking about, not content the game is actually balanced around. You know, the kind of content where people dying every 5 seconds is abnormal.

I realize he is talking about av, my comment was more towards


"In fact, I am so surprised that all of you haven't met this problem at all. I think such conditions often happen in PVE mythic too. I think maybe most of you haven't noticed this issue."

[shammypie]

The only piece I had spirit on was one of my trinkets. got it from the Garrison missions

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I was using Enveloping when I could but most of the time using Surging because he was just dropping to fast

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I don't think they really nerfed the Damage its more of the problem of so much damage going out all at once that there was no way I could keep up with healing the group in crane.

I wasn't using chi Explosion very much tho because of the fight every1 is spread out so much and again every1 was taking damage at the same time

sorry for the confusion i was referring to healing in crane stance in mythic. For the most part our healers are really good so it would be good to trade snipe fest for dps+smart heal. If i can pull numbers comparable to tanks or better I can justify my lower healing. Especially with the POM talent where I can switch out 10 secs before a huge burst and cover the raid and do 2-4 uplifts then go back to dps for another 40 secs (or more).

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There's no way druids have better proactive healing compared to monks. Monks have so many more tools they can plan ahead of time compared to druids.

I think Druids only really take germination now, so it's 18 seconds. I could be wrong though. Also bad luck with ReM's hardly happen in WoD. Considering it's a smart heal now, and we have so many of them out.

Also I don't think comparing ReM to Rejuv for 1 target is correct at all. Considering Soothing was redesigned to fill that void in MW's kit. That being said, druids should have better reactive healing compared to us. That is their strength after all.

if a druid has 15 secs to prepare they can rejuv half the raid and then genesis/wild mushroom bloom. I would they are more even than anything. Reactive on the other hand belongs to shamans.

[Deleted]

There's no way druids have better proactive healing compared to monks. Monks have so many more tools they can plan ahead of time compared to druids.

What tools are you talking about? We can prepare enough ReM, 4 chi and save some cds for incoming damage. That's it. Do you consider saving cds for burst "proactive healing"?

[altsax2003]

This may be a minor and petty thing, but I'm very curious... Why did Mark of the Wild get a 3% versatility addition to it while Legacy of the Emperor did not? Basically it means in a raid with a druid and a monk...using Legacy is worse than using Mark. They should probably be equal.

This means mistweavers really only bring the one buff, legacy, which is lackluster compared to mark.

[Eggye]

please someone tell me that Disc will get nerfed. this is just ridiculous

[Deleted]

please someone tell me that Disc will get nerfed. this is just ridiculous

disc and hpal mastery strongest as ever
but well boss damages is low, stats are high

we'll see in level 100 gear
on beta, i don't see disc and hpal THAT ridiculous ( althought i think the last 10% up on disc was not necessary at all)

[Brilynn]

Haha! Our disc running around doing nothing but Holy Nova doubling everyone elses healing. Balanced shields eh? OKAY

[Geodew]

Soothing is def the way to go to speed healing though.. allows you to deliver a 0.5sec cast uplift since sooth has a 0.5s gcd.

And yea total.. i know what it means, but even then it sounds weird haha

I think you mean Surging, not Uplift. Lol

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Actually, funny story. In WoD, Soothing Mist is stronger than Enveloping Mist even without EM already being on the target.

...Those durations are different. 115/8 (SooM) is not greater than 110/6 (EM). :P

However, good observation that they're pretty close now.

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There's no way druids have better proactive healing compared to monks. Monks have so many more tools they can plan ahead of time compared to druids.

I think Druids only really take germination now, so it's 18 seconds. I could be wrong though. Also bad luck with ReM's hardly happen in WoD. Considering it's a smart heal now, and we have so many of them out.

Also I don't think comparing ReM to Rejuv for 1 target is correct at all. Considering Soothing was redesigned to fill that void in MW's kit. That being said, druids should have better reactive healing compared to us. That is their strength after all.

I don't know what you mean about comparing for one target.

I suppose you are right, though; with PoM you could prepare for something like Fiery Edge pretty well (curse it for being a talent that we won't have until Klaxxi is old content...). In between those big, long-cooldown RNG bursts, though, yeah, Druid seems much better at reacting. Viewing prep (MW) vs. reaction (Drd) as the specs' strengths is a good, interesting viewpoint. I knew I was missing something

It seems to me, though, that a reactionary HoT class would have less overheal, or at least less punishing overheal. I don't have much to back that up though because I don't know Druid well enough.

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snip

Oh, yeah, I wasn't saying they're better at proactive healing, though. I was saying they probably suffer from RNG due to long HoT durations just like we do, but probably not as much.

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Look at this bad and crazy change, Geodew!!!

Each time Renewing Mist heals, it also travels to the most injured ally within 20 yards, up to 2 times.

OH!!!!

the most injured ally!!!!!!!!
You will more easily lose your remaining ReM than the past!!!!!

Their idea seems to help MWs improve the overhealing of ReMs, but I don't think it is a clever change.

I hope that if one has over one your mists, then he dies, the remaining Mists should not affected by his death. ReM need jump immediately at the death moment of your target, perhaps also jump immediately at the dispelled moment. (You won't waste so many mists(especially with the TFT) and CD).Could you help me post it to Blizzard, for I have no way to tell them my idea directly and my ENGLISH is so poor?

In PvE, if you're casting ReM when someone is in danger of dying, you are most definitely making a player error. You should be doing SooM->SM to save them. I have said since ten forevers ago that this is basically the only circumstance in PvE where you should delay a ReM cast (without PoM) or sit at full ReM charges (with PoM). The latter can also be mitigated with better play.

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Well, at any rate, id really like for our ReMs to spread out nearly instantly.. i dread the idea of casting rem on a target that will get jumped to at the same time.. I also really hate waiting on my ReM jumps to cast uplift.

I was actually thinking about this; the fact that they don't spread instantly might actually be a good thing. More on this when I'm not about to go to sleep. Unless I forget.

So, ReM jumps every 2 seconds and jumps twice, which takes a total of 4 seconds. I think it's no coincidence that the duration of ReM is exactly this 4 seconds plus the duration of two ReM cooldowns. 2+2+8+8=20. It was even approximately 20 before the perk due to Haste breakpoints (around 19.5).

Suppose that we changed ReM such that when you cast it, that target and the two currently most injured targets (without ReM already) immediately get ReM. Well, it lasts 20 seconds, so your ReM profile over time would look like this (without PoM):

(Casting ReM at 0s, 8s, 16s, etc.)
0s-4s: 9 people
4s-8s: 6 people
....

That's a pretty large disparity depending on exactly when damage happens, and isn't controllable, which would serve to only add to the spec's RNG.

But like I said, the duration is 20 seconds for a reason. Why not make it 16, so that you always have 6 people? The profile would look like this:

0s-8s: 6 people
....

Well, except now the ReM cooldown is VERY punishing. What if you delayed your second or third ReM cast by 1s? Then your profile looks like this:

0s-7s: 6 people
7s-8s: 3 people

And now you're crippled for a short period due to delaying ReM at all for any reason. Even if you lag a little bit, you might occasionally heal with only a 3-person Uplift.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is why ReM has a sort of "rolling duration," as I like to think of it. It's still optimal to cast ReM ASAP, but it's never overly punishing to fail to do so, nor does your ReM count jump around wildly due to brief delays in casting ReM. Here's the ReM profile right now:

0s-2s: 7 people
2s-6s: 8 people
6s-8s: 7 people
....

If I were a WoW developer, when choosing between "this spec is a bit slow to respond to certain types of damage" (the complaint with ReM being slow to jump) and "this spec is extremely punishing if you mess up, and it is inflexible in its rotation (which is bad for a healing spec)," you can bet I'd choose the former.

Having said that, I think that a 2 second jump time is probably more than enough. An 18 second duration with 1 second jump intervals would provide plenty of cushion for casting it on time. However, even with this change, we have the drawback that the ReM time profile is more varied. The ReM profile would then look like this:

0s-1s: 7 people
1s-3s: 8 people
3s-4s: 7 people
4s-8s: 6 people
....

So I'm not surprised that they chose a 2s jump interval.

(The above intervals change slightly with Haste, since Haste makes ReM jump faster, but does not change its duration or cooldown. The numbers given are for 0% Haste.)

[cqwrteur]

I think you mean Surging, not Uplift. Lol

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...Those durations are different. 115/8 (SooM) is not greater than 110/6 (EM). :P

However, good observation that they're pretty close now.

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I don't know what you mean about comparing for one target.

I suppose you are right, though; with PoM you could prepare for something like Fiery Edge pretty well (curse it for being a talent that we won't have until Klaxxi is old content...). In between those big, long-cooldown RNG bursts, though, yeah, Druid seems much better at reacting. Viewing prep (MW) vs. reaction (Drd) as the specs' strengths is a good, interesting viewpoint. I knew I was missing something

It seems to me, though, that a reactionary HoT class would have less overheal, or at least less punishing overheal. I don't have much to back that up though because I don't know Druid well enough.

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Oh, yeah, I wasn't saying they're better at proactive healing, though. I was saying they probably suffer from RNG due to long HoT durations just like we do, but probably not as much.

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In PvE, if you're casting ReM when someone is in danger of dying, you are most definitely making a player error. You should be doing SooM->SM to save them. I have said since ten forevers ago that this is basically the only circumstance in PvE where you should delay a ReM cast (without PoM) or sit at full ReM charges (with PoM). The latter can also be mitigated with better play.

Delay casting ReM maybe a bad idea, when your whole team are endangered.

After this change, your mists will lose easily for it jumps to the" most injured" player. You have no way to assure his alive, for you don't know who will have the mist.
That's not my fault, especially when there are over 2 people who are endanger.
ReM should jump immediately when a person dies.
Watching your mate dies since ReM has a bad mechanic and not trying to salvage them with uplift is a very bad idea. Maybe one uplift could save him, and then you could help him with other spells.

[Geodew]

Delay casting ReM maybe a bad idea, when your whole team are endangered.

After this change, your mists will lose easily for it jumps to the" most injured" player. You have no way to assure his alive, for you don't know who will have the mist.
That's not my fault, especially when there are over 2 people who are endanger.
ReM should jump immediately when a person dies.
Watching your mate dies since ReM has a bad mechanic and not trying to salvage them with uplift is a very bad idea. Maybe one uplift could save him, and then you could help him with other spells.

You keep at least 6 ReM targets for up to 4 seconds after delaying ReM. That's plenty of time to recover. If there are two people dying, surge them both. If there are a lot more than 2 people dying, then you guys fucked up and are wiping anyway. Making the judgment call of whether or not you have time to ReM and Uplift before someone dies is a player decision, and making that judgment call incorrectly is a player error. I don't think this change is necessary at all for PvE. How your spec behaves when a player dies is of little consequence in a new healing model where we have fewer brezzes and thus player deaths are tuned to not happen so often or quickly.

In my Mythic experience (obviously referring to the old "Heroic" as well), if someone dies, I almost always lose at most one old ReM. If someone dies in PvE, it's usually because (a) something went horribly wrong and you're wiping, or (b) they were low and stepped in fire, which spiked them down to death; they are usually not even the lowest-health player. Players don't really slowly die in PvE unless someone missed their cooldown or your healers suck, which is, again, usually a wipe anyway.

Of course, it sounds like this would be very important in a battleground, but I think you stepped a bit too far when you said that the spec needs it for Mythic as well.

[Volibear]

Thok kill from tonight:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...ling&source=22

So, that cleave trinket...

[shammypie]

Of course, it sounds like this would be very important in a battleground, but I think you stepped a bit too far when you said that the spec needs it for Mythic as well.

I concur. Although even in battlegrounds if you're trying to Rem someone instead of sooth/surg them back into safety i question you're judgment skills. Same goes with mythic. The situation in which losing a Rem charge becomes relevant is one where either A) you/you're healers suck B) you/you're raiders did something stupid.

[siccora]

Thok kill from tonight:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...ling&source=22

So, that cleave trinket...

hmm only healed in wise serpent? i thought it would be better to go crane

fyi: blue can now be crit

[Eggye]

So I'm looking at statistics on warcraft logs and to no surprise monk is dead last for this tier after changes, what's the likelyhood that will change at 100 with scaling?

[cqwrteur]

I concur. Although even in battlegrounds if you're trying to Rem someone instead of sooth/surg them back into safety i question you're judgment skills. Same goes with mythic. The situation in which losing a Rem charge becomes relevant is one where either A) you/you're healers suck B) you/you're raiders did something stupid.

You may misunderstand my meaning, not my team will die without my ReMs-uplft. My meaning is when such things happens, MW becomes useless. You have nothing to do.

AV is not Rated BG. They don't focus on you together so much as Rated BG.
There are at least 10 DKs in each sides, they use frost fever and blood fever to every member of your team. (You will see over 20 fevers on each member of your team. ) In fact, the more DKs in a BG, the higher latency of the server. It's very difficult to cast any spell easily.(Cast one ability need at least 2s latency.
If there are 100 v 100 (with 30 DKs per side) pvp environment, the latency is at least 20s.
The only thing you could do is ReM-uplift-RJW-uplift-uplift.

What things you could to increase your Healing Done easily when your ReMs are dispelled or jump to the most injured person(who is about to die) , in a very high latency?
And because of the bad mechanics of ReMs, you can't do anything in a over 5s latency.

[Leblue]

You may misunderstand my meaning, not my team will die without my ReMs-uplft. My meaning is when such things happens, MW becomes useless. You have nothing to do.

You can't cover enough people and uplift doesn't heal for enough anyway. To add to this, after 6 injured targets Uplift diminishes in effectiveness. You can spot heal some people (which is now 100% more viable without killing your mana) much more effectively now.

AV is not Rated BG. They don't focus on you together so much as Rated BG.

Which is why classes aren't balanced around it...at all. You can tweet/post on the forums about it but chances are they aren't terribly concerned about how X class does in AV.

There are at least 10 DKs in each sides, they use frost fever and blood fever to every member of your team. (You will see over 20 fevers on each member of your team. ) In fact, the more DKs in a BG, the higher latency of the server. It's very difficult to cast any spell easily.(Cast one ability need at least 2s latency.

What does this have to do with mistweaver healing in Warlords? This has nothing to do with any sort of rated arena, BG, or end game raiding which is what Devs balance the game around.

If there are 100 v 100 (with 30 DKs per side) pvp environment, the latency is at least 20s.

AV is 40 vs 40 and isn't balanced around because its a fringe part of the game that's literally there just so you can zerg eachother.

The only thing you could do is ReM-uplift-RJW-uplift-uplift.

Or you can spot heal people in range. Come warlords when you have more multistrike and pool of mists you won't want to just spread ReM as much as you possibly can because you'll make uplift heal for even less than it already does. ReM ticks won't save anyone and neither will uplifts healing 12+ injured people at the same time.

What things you could to increase your Healing Done easily when your ReMs are dispelled or jump to the most injured person(who is about to die) , in a very high latency?

You channel on nearby damaged people and use soothing + surging with enveloping mists as your spender while trying to stay out of the fray.

And because of the bad mechanics of ReMs, you can't do anything in a over 5s latency.

None of the classes were designed for 40 vs 40 battlegrounds so class balance breaks down completely when its just a huge brawl between sides. Its not unique to mistweavers.

[cqwrteur]

I just hesitate whether ReM jumps to the most injured person is a good idea or not.

All of you oppose me. Maybe I am wrong, but dont you think it's better if they take care of it?

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I just hesitate whether ReM jumps to the most injured person is a good idea or not.

[Totaltotemic]

I just hesitate whether ReM jumps to the most injured person is a good idea or not.

All of you oppose me. Maybe I am wrong, but dont you think it's better if they take care of it?

The design of raids and RBGs supercedes that of 40 man zergs and 100 v 100 PvP. It doesn't matter if it's a bad change for 40v40 because the game isn't designed around that.

[Jocias]

Well, guys, beta is over. That means it's about time to put this thread to bed.

Now that 6.0 is live, it's best to move the discussion to the newly created 6.0 mega-thread that's stickied at the top of the forum.

Thanks to everyone who contributed in this thread.