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  1. #1
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    [WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

    All Retribution Paladin specific discussion for Warlords is to happen here.

    General Paladin information to be found here (thanks to Zabannith for being awesome and opening that thread up).


    I'm going to try and keep a log of things that are happening here in the OP. If you've got info about something, leave a post and I'll record it here (each item will be a link to the post adding it). If I ever miss something, feel free to call it out in the thread again for me, or to shoot me a PM about it.



    WoD Alpha - Build 18156 (4-17-2014):
    Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
    Paladin (Forums)

    Talents
    • Eternal Flame HoT now scales with 6.6% of spellpower, up from 3.3%.
    • Seraphim now also increases Readiness.

    Major Glyphs
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2014-04-17 at 02:10 PM.

  2. #2
    Let's do this!

  3. #3
    Right well i might as well post two things. Nothing about Inquisition. It sucks, we all know it sucks, it's been discussed to death lets discuss other things.

    1. Personally i think the spec needs a new Ranged or DoT based HoPo, something to help with our lack of mobility in sticking with Hunters and Shamans and what not, classes with amazing on the move damage that are ranged. Cause giving the class a charge is the wrong direction. So a way to apply ranged pressure for PvP would be amazing, without over loading the spec with mobility. Granted we have a lot of range as is, I'm thinking minor damage or debuff to help us with kiting and applying consistent ranged DPS in some fights.

    and 2. Some math i did about final verdict in another thread i will post here.

    Most bosses have 24840ish armor (only 80% sure it's all.) So with the 12% armor shred other clases bring it ends up being 32% physical damage reduction.

    So lets say you do 275% Physical weapon damage for a 200k hit (weapon damage 72727) with Templars Verdict. After mitigation of just armor it does 151515 damage. 157575 with the 4% physical damage vulnerability.

    Now same weapon for 72727 damage with Final Verdict. 181817 holy damage completely unmitigated. Now adding inquisition's 30% bonus. Would be 236362 damage.

    So it would be roughly a 1.50 (1.4999999 rounded up) times damage increase, with those numbers.
    I'm glad to have multiple personalities, if i didn't i would be talking to myself, and that's just insane.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Borigrad View Post
    Right well i might as well post two things. Nothing about Inquisition. It sucks, we all know it sucks, it's been discussed to death lets discuss other things.

    1. Personally i think the spec needs a new Ranged or DoT based HoPo, something to help with our lack of mobility in sticking with Hunters and Shamans and what not, classes with amazing on the move damage that are ranged. Cause giving the class a charge is the wrong direction. So a way to apply ranged pressure for PvP would be amazing, without over loading the spec with mobility. Granted we have a lot of range as is, I'm thinking minor damage or debuff to help us with kiting and applying consistent ranged DPS in some fights.

    and 2. Some math i did about final verdict in another thread i will post here.

    Most bosses have 24840ish armor (only 80% sure it's all.) So with the 12% armor shred other clases bring it ends up being 32% physical damage reduction.

    So lets say you do 275% Physical weapon damage for a 200k hit (weapon damage 72727) with Templars Verdict. After mitigation of just armor it does 151515 damage. 157575 with the 4% physical damage vulnerability.

    Now same weapon for 72727 damage with Final Verdict. 181817 holy damage completely unmitigated. Now adding inquisition's 30% bonus. Would be 236362 damage.

    So it would be roughly a 1.50 (1.4999999 rounded up) times damage increase, with those numbers.
    I don't yet know how to break one quote into seperate quotes so that I may answer them one by one.... anyway.

    For your first sentences... well, that's like... totally your opinion man. Seems to me that the "Inq-hate-crowd" is just the louder one, as is usually the case.

    To 1. - So we are a melee specc... and you suggest adding even more ranged attacks would help us?? Why would I even want to play a melee then if I can do pressure at range and do consistend ranged DPS? That totally misses the point of being melee. I'd rather have a Leap of Faith ability or this ability the Crusader gets in D3. Apologies if I sounded too rude.

    To 2. Yes, pretty much. It's about in that direction.

    On another note: GoAK is pretty much gone for us, which is good I think. It does indeed have a cool visual, but I'd rather have more consistent DPS than another burst cd. >>> Kudos to Blizz if they go through with this.

    Secondly, I expect another procc ability for us. Currently, AoW and Exo are just boring. I even find the AoW procc more boring than Inq, but that's a matter for a different discussion and as always just my opinion.

    I do hope though that we might get a minor glyph for the old TV animation back. Also, Glyph of Bladed Judgment now also affects every other hammer-style ability.

  5. #5
    We have enough ranged damage and it looks like mobility will be nerfed to melees (pvp reasons). I really like retri right now(as a pvp player), the only thing I want is a better sustained damage (final verdict?) and sacred shield back.

  6. #6
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    For your first sentences... well, that's like... totally your opinion man. Seems to me that the "Inq-hate-crowd" is just the louder one, as is usually the case.
    If that is what you think sure, believe what you will @_@.

    Anyways what ability does a Crusader get in D3 are you referring to(No Beta 4 me)?
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire Zabannith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    If that is what you think sure, believe what you will @_@.

    Anyways what ability does a Crusader get in D3 are you referring to(No Beta 4 me)?
    They got some thing that makes them mount up on a spectral steed an charge at the enemy super fast dunno the name

    New Ability: Renounce. When cast, Renounce permanently changes the Paladin into a Warrior.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabannith View Post
    They got some thing that makes them mount up on a spectral steed an charge at the enemy super fast dunno the name
    Paladins don't need a charge it would just make the class over bearing as fuck on top of all their Ranged damage and self healing. I don't know why people continuously suggest it over the years. Not saying you did.
    I'm glad to have multiple personalities, if i didn't i would be talking to myself, and that's just insane.

  9. #9
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Wait, so you want to remove Inq, a buff that we maintain on ourselves because it "sucks" with a dot that we maintain on others?
    Not to shit on your idea but those two are EXACTLY the same.
    3HoPo - buff yourself.
    3HoPo - debuff enemy.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelemar View Post
    For your first sentences... well, that's like... totally your opinion man. Seems to me that the "Inq-hate-crowd" is just the louder one, as is usually the case.

    To 1. - So we are a melee specc... and you suggest adding even more ranged attacks would help us?? Why would I even want to play a melee then if I can do pressure at range and do consistend ranged DPS? That totally misses the point of being melee. I'd rather have a Leap of Faith ability or this ability the Crusader gets in D3. Apologies if I sounded too rude.

    To 2. Yes, pretty much. It's about in that direction.

    On another note: GoAK is pretty much gone for us, which is good I think. It does indeed have a cool visual, but I'd rather have more consistent DPS than another burst cd. >>> Kudos to Blizz if they go through with this.

    Secondly, I expect another procc ability for us. Currently, AoW and Exo are just boring. I even find the AoW procc more boring than Inq, but that's a matter for a different discussion and as always just my opinion.

    I do hope though that we might get a minor glyph for the old TV animation back. Also, Glyph of Bladed Judgment now also affects every other hammer-style ability.
    Personally, I'm happy to have GoAK gone and Inq turned into a passive (I think that's what's happening otherwise they better compensate in some equal way).
    I'd love to see DP made baseline again as it was an enjoyable proc and with our Holy Power being much more stable than it was in Cata, it would make a great addition. If they could make AoW and Exo more interesting through synergy with other skills, well that'd just be icing on the cake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borigrad View Post
    Paladins don't need a charge it would just make the class over bearing as fuck on top of all their Ranged damage and self healing. I don't know why people continuously suggest it over the years. Not saying you did.
    We absolutely need a better movement skill. The ones we have now suck pretty bad. As for our ranged we have Judgment, Exo (15s cd or have to be in melee to proc AoW), and Hammer (if they're below 20% or we have wings up). Those range skills aren't really a danger to anyone if we can't get into melee range. Our current movement tools are horrible because they have long cds, require a target, require storing Holy Power, and can be nullified by snares/cc unless we're spamming ourselves with emancipate. Not to mention they're not particularly fun to use (that's my subjective pov but I think many would agree and it's important since this is a game).

    I'd like to see an instant (or damn about near) movement skill that cannot be affected by other players. Leap of faith or steed charge (D3) are fine with me as long as they have a max cd of 20s. Both allow us to get to our target very quickly and we're not subject to cc and such during (steed charge makes the crusader untargetable in d3 I believe).

    Once we have a decent/fun mechanic in place, they can then look and see if that's too much in conjunction with our ranged. It's fine to lose some of it as long as we're compensated for the damage. As it's been said, we're melee dps and should have more melee tools.

  11. #11
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt66 View Post
    I'd love to see DP made baseline again as it was an enjoyable proc and with our Holy Power being much more stable than it was in Cata, it would make a great addition. If they could make AoW and Exo more interesting through synergy with other skills, well that'd just be icing on the cake.
    DP was only and will only ever be fun when it actually procs. Better HP generation won't make it suck any less when it doesnt proc, and Id like to see you find one person who enjoyed doughts of no DP procs back in Cata. It'd be nice to have some other proc, but not one that can make our dps swing so wildly.
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

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  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Zabannith's Avatar
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    Like I've been saying 2nd proc should be "CS crits will grant clarity for x seconds granting use of HoW regardless of targets health" you'd want to use it before your next cs so you don't loose a potential proc.. but after tv5hp so you don't waste the hp gen from it , you wouldn't just mindlessly hit it when it procs , you'd have some decision making to do , also at least we could some what control how often it would proc by gearing crit instead of being totally random and out of our control like DP is.
    Also we all know itemization is going to be horrible and more than likely catered towards warriors , so why not get on the crit bandwagon?

    Hell if be fine if we lost the use of HoW under AW if we gained this proc, Sure they would have to rework sanc wrath but they could make HoW hit like actual execute instead of a wet noodle when you don't have AW up because it wouldn't have to be balanced around having wings up for the 20% extra dmg

    New Ability: Renounce. When cast, Renounce permanently changes the Paladin into a Warrior.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    DP was only and will only ever be fun when it actually procs. Better HP generation won't make it suck any less when it doesnt proc, and Id like to see you find one person who enjoyed doughts of no DP procs back in Cata. It'd be nice to have some other proc, but not one that can make our dps swing so wildly.
    Procs are supposed to be random. The reason you think it sucked is because back in Cata we were reliant on it for a source of HP because our generation was terrible. Not to mention back then TV hit a lot harder. Today, TV isn't as big and we generate enough HP to use it pretty regularly without DP, which means that it won't make our dps swing as "wildly" and can be a good proc again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabannith View Post
    Like I've been saying 2nd proc should be "CS crits will grant clarity for x seconds granting use of HoW regardless of targets health" you'd want to use it before your next cs so you don't loose a potential proc.. but after tv5hp so you don't waste the hp gen from it , you wouldn't just mindlessly hit it when it procs , you'd have some decision making to do , also at least we could some what control how often it would proc by gearing crit instead of being totally random and out of our control like DP is.
    Also we all know itemization is going to be horrible and more than likely catered towards warriors , so why not get on the crit bandwagon?

    Hell if be fine if we lost the use of HoW under AW if we gained this proc, Sure they would have to rework sanc wrath but they could make HoW hit like actual execute instead of a wet noodle when you don't have AW up because it wouldn't have to be balanced around having wings up for the 20% extra dmg
    I'd personally enjoy using TV more than HoW but this wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, and getting some more mileage out of crit would be nice.
    Last edited by Bolt66; 2014-03-04 at 05:37 AM.

  14. #14
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    They can and should change Art of War to DP, like it's been said exorcism is way too weak for us to use so when it procs we don't really use it unless everything else is on cd.
    There's lots of changes they can and probably will end doing but I wouldn't expect any magic to happen, example: don't expect HoW to feel like an execute.
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  15. #15
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Didn't people suggest Divine Purpose to be baseline? I'd be down with that unless there's a balance reason.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  16. #16
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Yeah now that our holy power generation is actually properly good DP would be fine as baseline but that puts up 1 more RNG element and we already have one that we don't value at all (almost) so might as well remove Art of War and replace it with DP. Art of War as a rng element isn't a problem, the problem is that Exorcism is dogshit :P
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  17. #17
    I'd rather that DP was made into something that went like "Makes your next Holy power consumer do X% more damage", instead of skewing your rotation to make you spam TV repeatedly. Sort of like how LTTS was but as a one-time buff. It's boring yes but kind of better than the current incarnation? Also the problem would be on how to make it competitive enough if it stayed as a talent. If it became a passive buff then it's alright.

    I'm ok with AoW staying. I very much liked the concept of Exorcism being changed to provide HP on a CD and being reset by autoattacks, but I think we've had enough Haste scaling as it is and we could probably change the mechanic to proc on something else instead. Of course this is all relative to whether Sanctity of Battle undergoes little to no changes.

  18. #18
    The Patient ujx's Avatar
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    I want to be able to dps with a 1h/shield like crusaders in D3.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Yeah now that our holy power generation is actually properly good DP would be fine as baseline but that puts up 1 more RNG element and we already have one that we don't value at all (almost) so might as well remove Art of War and replace it with DP. Art of War as a rng element isn't a problem, the problem is that Exorcism is dogshit :P
    Saying that DP should be baseline because Exorcism is shit is just wishful thinking. They need to look at Exorcism again and tune that. I doubt people would be happy with such an iconic ability going away. Then again, it'd probably be the first one going if they'd cut offensive abilities.

    If DP was baseline it'd discourage an incredible amount of players to play the spec. Sure it's fun to chainproc and do godly dps, but having such a big part of your dps being tied to a single rng ability is really stupid and a bad design decision.

  20. #20
    Give Cata Exorcism back. Move it out from basic rotation, buff its damage, give it cast time and make it instant on Art of War procs.

    Didn't everyone hate Divine Purpose back in Cata? I know I did. To get high ranks you needed to have great RNG with DP. Super boring stuff.

    I don't mind RNG, but it should alter your rotation more than your DPS. So if we're gonna have stuff like T16 4p and DP be baseline the damage from the proc abilities need to be lower to smooth out RNG.

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