[WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

[Ktperry]

Haha agree.
Since our class got the pink color in the beginning.. i knew it.. we are going to be fucked haha.
Our problems (spec wise) are so obvious man. They need to stop playing
mages and reroll paladins to see the real problem, i'm not kidding they seem to don't know what is happening with the spec AT ALL.
There are great solutions for this, but it requires WORK, and they don't seem interested.
They recently did change the Balance/druid spec completely. it looks fun actually.
See? they just don't care, they really think the spec is "ok".

I have almost every class @90, except rogue.
Whenever i go to the sub-forum section of the alt im playing to learn some more about ther rotation, there is always someone bitching.

Go poke around, mages complain about X, locks complain about X, etc.
Im playing ret mainly since Cata.
Was i happy with shitty RNG for DP and only crusader strike granting HoPo, and if CS miss, you was fckd, sitting there and starring at nothing. No
Havent played so seriously in MoP to notice some of the ret flaws.

Point is, i love the spec, and im going to play it no matter what.

[Velkhan]

I have almost every class @90, except rogue.
Whenever i go to the sub-forum section of the alt im playing to learn some more about ther rotation, there is always someone bitching.

Go poke around, mages complain about X, locks complain about X, etc.
Im playing ret mainly since Cata.
Was i happy with shitty RNG for DP and only crusader strike granting HoPo, and if CS miss, you was fckd, sitting there and starring at nothing. No
Havent played so seriously in MoP to notice some of the ret flaws.

Point is, i love the spec, and im going to play it no matter what.

good for you, bye.

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Aeluron can be my CM :3

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Someone should post the Frozen video Let it Go. We really need that right now

There you go, a better version. fuck it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5H91A3Hp8E

[anaxie]

If you're going to butcher Frozen don't talk to me :3

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Frozen was a good movie I won't lie about that.

[Alissana]

I was just checking some of the baseline skills we will have in WoD. I heard some rumors about getting back Consecration, but I also saw Holy Shock, Beacon of Light and Ardent Defender in the list.
What's up with that?

[anaxie]

Dakeshi it's 15% Ap and 30% attack speed. If it was the previous you would take Emp seals and sit in truth for max dps.

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A double damage Finisher also isn't minor.

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Also lastly it's cool if you think Emp seals is wonderful and it excites you. However pushing back attacks when our resources is GCDs and swapping into seals ESPECIALLY AoE seals in a non AoE situation MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE. they are forcing an abilities use that would of been better off to be scrapped entirely and it's damage rolled into other AoE abilities because fuck we certainly need some help in the AoE department.

[anaxie]

Nevermind Emp seals came off wildly after the clusterfuck of Seal of Faith while not terrible design was a much better iteration where they could of developed a Secondary powerful DPS seal that you swapped into Censure to maintain the debuff an and went back to your Core Talented Seal.

That would actually have something to do with Seal twisting and being intuitive. Empowered judgements is in my opinion completely uninspired and an attempt to pander to people who think Clunky terrible combat mechanics = skill.

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Yeah I mixed them up, 5 AM here.

Like I said, numbers doesn't matter. It'll function mechanically. If doing it properly > final verdict > doing it bad works, then that's good talent design.

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Empowered seals doesn't excite me as much as Final Verdict puts me off. I dislike passives and like engaging gameplay.

Yes I like engaging gameplay too when it WORKS and doesn't work against you. You know maybe actually adding shhit that matters within the seal and combat systems of ret Baseline.

[ASO]

I'm fine with everything about Ret except for Inquisition (which is being removed thank god) and their terrible damage.

Basically a straight up buff to Sword of Light is necessary.

[anaxie]

Oh btw Emp seals is a Passive. once gcd's can be filled the only use for the talent is to sit in truth or spec final verdict. If the Glyph goes live Final Verdict default wins.

So tell me does that sound like good design? Sounds fucking terrible to me.

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I'm fine with everything about Ret except for Inquisition (which is being removed thank god) and their terrible damage.

Basically a straight up buff to Sword of Light is necessary.

I hope you are happy when ret has the worst scaling in the entire game.

Don't worry guys we almost finished our 10 year beta but Blizzard just restart the entire process. Maybe 2024 ret will be ready for launch

[anaxie]

How can you even be sure GCD capped is laughable with no int plate no dodge plate is is reasonable to assume if we want haste gear. We can find haste gear.

If I had to swap that many GCD's in the opening tier of MoP I would of been screwed.

nevermind Delaying the cooldown of judgement and they very likely pushback of HP builders which significantly negates dps when you think of all the Cons of taking emp seals.

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On the other hand if they make Exorcism this completely not dogshit abilitiy maybe my tune about how impressive an attack speed buff will swing but I'm skeptical of blizzards ability to do ANYTHING right after 4 expansions. They don't fix their mistake until atleast the second tier of an expansion. it's tradition. And looking SO FAR at the largely developed alpha builds. They are going par for the course on fucking ret over for the 6th time in a row.

[anaxie]

If doing seal swapping correctly actually is a dps increase over final verdict, surely that takes more skill. If the talent is weaker than Final Verdict there's no point in even having it in the game.

Passives shouldn't beat active talents if you use and manage them properly. That's just bad design.

Empowered Seals can work out just fine. We won't be GCD capped, and the buff will outweight seal damage. Sure it makes no sense to swap to an aoe seal to maintain a buff single target, but the wotlk model of divine storm single target everyone loved worked at the time.




I don't really need to like a talent to argument for it. Just like I don't enjoy telling people our utility is fine and encounters don't cater for them. If there were meaningful things to use our utility on, people wouldn't whine. That being said I haven't though about replacing the talent because I don't want to just be wishfully thinking about what can happen. If we get stuck with this talent it can work. If they change it so will my opinion.




Movement and fight design can make Justice and Insight buffs valuable. Sure that's minor but that's also a factor. Sometimes you're not always sitting on the boss, great time to swap seals and get a different buff up, including righteousness.

I doubt we will have a glyph that gives us 1 minute Avenging Wrath from release on, that's just stupid.

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Also you got chelate before me lol, see my rant about bad feedback.

I don't know about you but honestly 1 min AW and FV is the lazy way out blizzard solution to fix our reliance on haste and sustained dps. just give us cooldowns almost all the time. With their lazy attitutde towards ret development I would probably do that too.

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Infact the recent HoW gutting on Alpha and the glyph cutting the damage component pretty much points that it's actually going to be something they intend. I find this absolutely Hilarious.

More likely then not though AW is going 3 mins and to get 2 mins you leave glyph? Why? because fuck ret thats why

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That said people worry about like eerrrmuhgod no skill class. Who give a fuck? Jimmydeanstupidfuck is stil going to be too retarded to do fight mechanics. I want the class to work and function not be a complete clusterfuck chore to play. They took away inquisition and added possibly the worst dps mechanic I have ever seen in the entire game TWICE Seraph and Emp seals reek of complete lack of actual thought around how fuck abominable they are with the gutted systems being introduced in WoD.

In WoD it's a joke Seaph was even created personally.

[Fredzilla]

If we can get GCD capped or enough haste to not swap seals that defeats the purpose of the talent and Sanctity of Battle. This would also cause us to scale out of hand because it would be like having SoO levels of haste in T14.

If you need to delay judgment or any HoPower generator then obviously it (empowered seals) would be dog shit. I just run the assumption that won't be the case in the first tier because that's logical.

And yeah, if they buff exorcism to be good it swings in Empowered Seals favor, same if they nerf it/fillers even more. The argument can go both ways if we start discussing numbers.

I can't see us not having to delay some HP generator with empowered seals since, because of their relative cooldowns, they all end up clashing anyway. I feel like trying to maintain the AS buff from SoR will just make it that much worse. Especially since we'll want to spend as little time as possible in SoR, possibly just switching back out immediately after judge, which would cause quite a bit of delay I imagine.

[Smitus]

I don't know about you but honestly 1 min AW and FV is the lazy way out blizzard solution to fix our reliance on haste and sustained dps. just give us cooldowns almost all the time. With their lazy attitutde towards ret development I would probably do that too.

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Infact the recent HoW gutting on Alpha and the glyph cutting the damage component pretty much points that it's actually going to be something they intend. I find this absolutely Hilarious.

More likely then not though AW is going 3 mins and to get 2 mins you leave glyph? Why? because fuck ret thats why

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That said people worry about like eerrrmuhgod no skill class. Who give a fuck? Jimmydeanstupidfuck is stil going to be too retarded to do fight mechanics. I want the class to work and function not be a complete clusterfuck chore to play. They took away inquisition and added possibly the worst dps mechanic I have ever seen in the entire game TWICE Seraph and Emp seals reek of complete lack of actual thought around how fuck abominable they are with the gutted systems being introduced in WoD.

In WoD it's a joke Seaph was even created personally.

The sky is truly falling!

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The sky is truly falling!

Infernals raining from the sky. Tentacles coming from the ground. It's crazy!

[Velshin]

Big post lads ;_;




Damage numbers can be ignored right now. Mechanically it functions because we won't be GCD capped and we will have open globals. 30% AP/15%Attack Speed is not minor. We'll have to see how it plays out.




I think that's good design. If you get higher dps for doing empowered seals properly over final verdict that's good. The other way around as well, doing it badly should punish you. This gives options for cutting edge players (who probably doesn't care about what they play as long as it's best) and options for everyone.




If they didn't listen to us they would keep going with the CS=Seal of Truth and HotR=Seal of Righteousness. That alone proves you wrong. They do listen and take things into consideration, but players don't always know what's best for long-term design.




The game is different from vanilla, tbc, wotlk and cataclysm and retribution has changed over the years.

If you know they will disappoint you every time there is no need to be upset or frustrated, right? Just run that assumption and you pretty much win when the expansion comes out. You haven't been frustrated over the same issue over 4 expansions.

I may have played retribution for 2 tiers only but i've played the game since vanilla and I know there have been >a lot< of changes over the years. Saying nothing has happened to retribution is dumb.

I still don't see your point because there has been both good and bad changes to retribution. It honestly doesn't matter if you played retribution in vanilla because it pretty much is a different game.

Well it's easier to say than doing it. We are humans you know that we are capable of being upset and feels disappointment. I'm sorry but I have to be upset when I see my spec is almost unwanted and so undesirable and very weak compare to other dps specs not only because of dps and numbers but also bad in term of utility because of being shared with every specs of the class + very weak in term of survivbility in pvp the moment our bubble is gone then it will be all over for us...because each expansion we are being promised something and we don't get it. Yes the game has changed a lot since Vanilla and TBC. But our class has the most ovehaul changes compare to other classes. Yes every class is changing but if you pay attention to paladins we are getting overhaul in almost every expansion now. Yes there are some good few changes for retri spec but the bad things are more than the good things (Adding divine storm spell is an awesome thing I agree). I'm upset because the spec is very popular and yet Blizzard didn't fix our problems yet. We are still very unattractive and undesirable to other players community either for pvp or pve. How many times you see people needing retri for RBGs for example? specially high rating ones and how many times you see raids needed a retri paladins?

My point is Blizzard made us so undesirable and unattractive because of the problems we have (Utilities shared with all of the other specs + low dps compare to other dps specs). Because of such thing happening for many years now it's usually you see people saying for our fellow retri players something like "Go holy dude."

And I'm sorry if I offended you I didn't mean it and don't take it personally. I just can't keep myself positive and faithful anymore because of our spec problems in almost every expansion but yeah...who knows maybe I will be surprised in WoD.

[Velshin]

@Velshin

I may have a unique/screwed up perspective on retribution seeing as I went from having never played it to being recruited to ScrubBusters to play that spec spesifically.

Any paladin worth their salt will have no issues with their raiding spot. We're not in as bad a spot as people make it out to be. Paladins were not benched for progress this expansion because they were playing a retribution paladin. True we need to work way harder than warlocks or mages or rogues or whatever for our raiding spot, but in no way do you get benched for your spec unless your guild management is extremely bad, and that's not something blizzard can fix without tuning paladins to the point of being overpowered.

I see where there is a dps issue 3-4 months into progression, but that far into progression there is a big chance that player (and guild) aren't fully optimizing so regardless of balance it doesn't matter.

I see where you are coming from when you say there's frustration and disappointment, and I can definetly see that coming from anyone doing pvp. I can't speak for pvp because I don't do pvp outside of casual bgs. I strictly speak from PvE and I agree with you and everyone arguing for it that we need one of 2 things; Ret unique utility that can challenge the utility currently in the game or; Average/Above average dps to compensate for lack of utility.


I feel like most people in this thread, both ourselves included, is on the same page when it comes to retribution, we just share a different view/perspective/opinion on the same cause.

That being said, i'm not offended and I don't take what you said personally. This is the kind of discussion I actually enjoy.





Judgment, Exorcism and CS, even if clashing somewhere, won't mean you'll delay HP generators. You will have atleast 2 empty globals somewhere in the rotation come Warlords, and those will not be rare. It'll probably be more optimal to actually stay 2-3 seconds in Seal of Righteousness, do a bit less seal damage and maintain maximum buff uptime+holy power generation.

You trade a bit of seal damage or a 30% attack speed buff pretty much, and if exorcism gets buffed/actually worth pressing then that's a good trade off.

I agree with you now that retri is not that bad in pve. The main issue mostly about retri at the start of each expansion. We start at each expansion as super horrible dps spec (Specially at the start of Cata tier 11 and the start of MoP tier14). Yes back then we are being benched just for the fact that we play retri and of course they rather take rogues as a melee or any other dps spec class other than retri which I don't blame them to be honest we were super horrible. Then after 1 or 2 content tier patch we start to be okayish in pve. This is one of the main problem...Blizzard just takes one tier content raid and half to barely make us okayish in pve while other spec classes are okay from day 1 of the new expansion or doesn't take as long as retri to be fixed.

[Prometheous]

It's almost like if they played their own game more often they'd understand.

[Reghame]

One thing that could help out Exo AND the emp seals is maybe bring the larger Cds back to judgement or CS. As it stands, our holy power generation is really high, because of this, AoW procs are devalued because we dont need them as much for generation for finisher damage, and the proc is almost fully based on how much damage exo itself does. which brings the question as to why exo is not on a 5 second CD and is sitting on a 15 one instead.

With longer cooldowns on the generators, we could see a big increase on room for EMP seals to take use, and possibly would not clash with our generator cooldowns outside of maybe an exo proccing half way through the process.

to compensate for the decrease in HP, our finisher would have to be extremely powerful, maybe the current FV baseline and we replace the talent with something else? i dont know.

After thinking for a while though i believe although their fix in cata to increase our HP generation + to make it consistent actually made it hard for them to develop anything new in regards to how we can have functionality in a complex rotation and as to make seal swapping not be a detriment without having them be off GCD then just simply put into a macro.

I think in the end we need an ENTIRE spec overhaul, as in a full wipe like ret never existed, then rethink everything from the ground up. the amalgamation of ret is too large to fix anymore and maybe needs to be put out of it's misery.

[Fredzilla]

Judgment, Exorcism and CS, even if clashing somewhere, won't mean you'll delay HP generators. You will have atleast 2 empty globals somewhere in the rotation come Warlords, and those will not be rare. It'll probably be more optimal to actually stay 2-3 seconds in Seal of Righteousness, do a bit less seal damage and maintain maximum buff uptime+holy power generation.

You trade a bit of seal damage or a 30% attack speed buff pretty much, and if exorcism gets buffed/actually worth pressing then that's a good trade off.

I'm sure there will be empty gcds somewhere, but the location of those gcds within the larger rotation would theoretically be the problem. Granted I'm just assuming here, but wouldn't it be another hit if you're refreshing the SoR buff early? Just the same as it was/is with inq. At the very least because you go back into SoR again early. That, and with 6 and 15 sec base CDs for judge/exo compared to the current 20 sec duration of the buff, it'll probably change where and when we refresh it almost every time. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be worth it in the end, because none of us know that right now, but just pointing out reasons that I at least feel it's somewhat of a clunky talent.

[Fredzilla]

How is that bad though? Procs and buffs should dynamically change how your rotation works. If you swapped seal every 19 seconds, used judgment and swapped seal back again that would be no different than inquisition on steroids.

I didn't say it was bad. Without playing with it, we can't know how it really feels. I just think it will only add to the clunky feeling we might likely go back to, a la t14. Personal opinion, since I can't say it will be clunky either.