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  1. #21
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    I know ppl wont agree but rankings mean shit, you already need RNG and shitloads of other things in order to actually get proper ranks. But yeah buffing Exorcism to make it a priority to get as many as possible out would work but then we lose a stable and relatively effective holy power builder so I don't think the hard-cast Exorcism should make a comeback.

    It's a known fact that blizzard likes to experiment with tier bonuses for future baseline abilities (or as talents). ToT tier 4set now looks to be one of our lvl 100 talent options, which I think is awesome. There's lots of other examples that they've done and that we can look at, our current 4set I think is extremely interesting because you can delay it for it's duration and hit it on the end if you know more adds are spawning or whatever or you can use it in a "rotation" sense that you use it when it's appropriate for single target.

    Exorcism in it's current form works fine in a rotation-wise thinking. It doesn't hit anywhere close to hard enough for it to be something Art of War can proc, they can (imo) buff Exorcism so it has prio over Judgement and Crusader Strike or they can change Art of War to proc something else. DP could be an option, our current 4set could be an option. There's lots of things they can do, I personally think Exorcism as a stand alone spell is fine if you take away the Art of War part. With Art of War it's far, far too weak as we all know.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2014-03-04 at 12:34 PM.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Yeah now that our holy power generation is actually properly good DP would be fine as baseline but that puts up 1 more RNG element and we already have one that we don't value at all (almost) so might as well remove Art of War and replace it with DP. Art of War as a rng element isn't a problem, the problem is that Exorcism is dogshit :P
    I think Art of War is fine, its just bland as far as proc's go. I don't think AoW would need to be removed for Divine Purpose to become baseline though. They could both easily exist together.

    Maybe its just me, but it feels like baseline Divine Purpose is what is missing from Ret's rotation at the moment. If you take it as a talent it feels too RNG and doesn't provide anything to compensate for bad RNG. If you take one of the other talents things feels bland because you are doing the same thing over and over until Cd's come back up. Divine Purpose also make Inquisition feel better because of its ability to proc a free one.

    Another option would be to make the Ret t16 4 set bonus baseline. Which is something I think would be pretty cool as someone who misses Divine Storm being in the single target rotation.
    Last edited by nyc81991; 2014-03-04 at 01:42 PM.

  3. #23
    Is anyone ele bummed about blood elf ratials? one extra hp every 2 minutes and arcane acuity 1% increased crit is a bit lame.
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  4. #24
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Go Tauren, 2% crit damage is almost guaranteed to be the best racial option endgame (same for dwarf)
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  5. #25
    How can you say that if you have no idea how ret will scale with crit?

  6. #26
    High Overlord jadedfuture's Avatar
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    Give cata Exorcism back. WTB Divine Purpose baseline.

    I don't even care for the RNG. Getting really lucky and slamming 7 TV's to a bosses face was the most fun for me. I loved Cata divine purpose.

    That's my wishlist. If I get this, I'll be maining ret pal this expansion because prot is boooooring.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Go Tauren, 2% crit damage is almost guaranteed to be the best racial option endgame (same for dwarf)
    Considering interesting stuff can proc off crits and it would take 50% crit for 2% crit damage to equal the effect of 1% extra crit before we consider procs, I'll take the 1% crit over 2% crit damage any day. We -might- get 50% crit in the final tier, if it's considered a stat worth stacking, but even then the difference is going to be negligible.
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  8. #28
    I've done some Excel Math and ended with complete equal Value of the both stats.

    To clarify what i did, I share the Formulas, perhaps there is a mistake at my end

    2% Critdmg Formula: =($E$1*2,02)-($E$1*2) --> The Difference of a not buffed crit and a 2% buffed crit
    1% Crit Formula:=($E$1*2*($E$2+0,01))-($E$1*2*$E$2) --> The Difference of our Dmg with Crit buff and without.

    Being E1(changable DPS)=50000 (only an example)
    Being E2(changable Critchance)=20% (only an example)

    For every value in E1 and E2 you get the same result: 1%crit=2%critdmg

    P.S.: I love the Paladin community here at mmo-c and I want to reroll my pala as Main with WoD. Thank you to all of you for the constructive discussions here. (I only read them, this is my first Post here)

    P.P.S.: In this Given Situation with equal Value in both stats, I would chose Bloodelve, cause they get a free holy Power to perhaps maintain things at the start of the fight and as mentioned above, perhaps, there are nice proccs coming from crit, which would give it a higher value.
    Last edited by Laethas; 2014-03-04 at 03:52 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikoll View Post
    Is anyone ele bummed about blood elf ratials? one extra hp every 2 minutes and arcane acuity 1% increased crit is a bit lame.
    The extra Holy Power will be pretty decent for PvP when bursting in my opinion. It should probably give 2 charges of Holy Power though.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Laethas View Post
    I've done some Excel Math and ended with complete equal Value of the both stats.

    To clarify what i did, I share the Formulas, perhaps there is a mistake at my end

    2% Critdmg Formula: =($E$1*2,02)-($E$1*2) --> The Difference of a not buffed crit and a 2% buffed crit
    1% Crit Formula:=($E$1*2*($E$2+0,01))-($E$1*2*$E$2) --> The Difference of our Dmg with Crit buff and without.

    Being E1(changable DPS)=50000 (only an example)
    Being E2(changable Critchance)=20% (only an example)

    For every value in E1 and E2 you get the same result: 1%crit=2%critdmg
    One doesn't really need a spreadsheet to calculate the math on this, but the program is useful to compare the results easily.

    And yes, there is a mistake on your end. You need to use the same formula to calculate both, but have different variables.

    At a base hit of 100 damage, a 20% crit rate with a x2 crit multiplier would result in an expected average damage of 120. 20% chance to do 100 extra damage.
    Add 1% crit and the average is an easy 121.
    Change the crit multiplier to 2.02 with 20% crit and it's a 20% chance to do 102 extra damage. 20% of 102 is 20.4, for an expected average damage of 120.4.

    The equations would go: Damage + (crit% * (crit multiplier-1) * Damage). To copy what I just put in my own spreadsheet, =A2+((B2)*(C2-1)*A2) where A2 is the base damage, B2 is the crit percent converted to decimal, and C2 is the crit multiplier. That formula puts out the expected 120 average if A2 is 100, B2 is 20%, and C2 is 2. Change B2 to 21 and the average changes to 121, as expected. Change C2 to 2.02 and the formula gives back 120.4

    If B2 and C2 are 50 and 2, respectively, then the output is 150. If B2 is 51 and C2 is 2, the output is 151. If B2 is 50 and C2 is 2.02, the output is 151. As already said, 2% crit damage is only equal to 1% extra crit when you already have 50% crit.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2014-03-04 at 04:42 PM.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Borigrad View Post
    Paladins don't need a charge it would just make the class over bearing as fuck on top of all their Ranged damage and self healing. I don't know why people continuously suggest it over the years. Not saying you did.
    The one shot ranged damage, and the amazing self healing? Oh no sorry, I thought we were talking about DK's there.

    Firstly, I like my melee to be melee. This is a Paladin here, so why aren't they pushing out weapon swings made out of Holy magic? Also, right now Exorcism sucks. It's so bad for damage that it's literally last in our rotation right now. We're not a DK, where Howling Blast is not only a ranged ability, but their best damage ability. Their rotation right now is Howling Blast and Frost Strike. They rarely if ever use Obliterate. But Exorcism is so bad that it's literally last on our rotation. Ranged damage, we are not.

    As for healing, well it sucks in PvP, and that's thanks to Battle Fatigue. I was on the isle, doing quests, and this Warlock with nearly 1 million health is ganking people. Not uncommon for Heroic raiding Warlocks to have that much HP. So I try to help some poor guy, but the Warlock gets upset. Wants me to let him use his Soul stone to make it fair, but HELL NO he's a Warlock. BTW he had enough time to type that out, with me beating on him, and he's already at 50%. No doubt, Warlocks are the most OP class in the game. The guy takes off with rocket boots, cause he's buying time to wait for Soul Stone to get off cool down. Falls off a cliff, and heals to full. At that point my health was at 50%, and my mana couldn't heal me to full. At that point I realized that Paladin vs Warlock is a bad idea on my end, and I just ran away crying. That's world PvP, with no Battle Fatigue. So, imagine how bad it is in Arena or RBGS. BTW, do Ret Paladins RBG? Nobody ever talks about that glaring problem with Ret Paladins.

    Also want to point out that nearly everyone CAN RUN AWAY FROM US. Like clock work, when I pop Wings then everyone runs away and pumps endless crowd control on me. Which is the smart thing to do on their end, but you'd think a class with Hand of Freedom would be able to close the gap. NO, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!

  12. #32
    Supposedly Ret was going to get more healing spells available due to Seal of Faith and all that. Now that SoF is on the shelf... We'll have to see what kind of things they add in, if anything. But yes, if Ret's kit is supposed to have heals worth a damn then right now there's no way in hell that's true.
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  13. #33
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    It's not all about healing yourself you know. 3 stack selfless healer on someone else, especially if you have crusade up from killing someone? Even in bgs thats a ridiculous heal.
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  14. #34
    Stood in the Fire Smitus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Supposedly Ret was going to get more healing spells available due to Seal of Faith and all that. Now that SoF is on the shelf... We'll have to see what kind of things they add in, if anything. But yes, if Ret's kit is supposed to have heals worth a damn then right now there's no way in hell that's true.
    Even if the talents that originally been announced stayed in place I don't think any ret in 99.5% of situations would have picked seal of faith.
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  15. #35
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    I started wow as a druid, moved on to paladin at the end of TBC/beginning of WotLK. I enjoy playing "hybrid" and support roles because I find them the most interesting, if we're gonna lose more and more of our utility we're basically just a shit dps class :<
    Talked to Dakeshi (recently found out we're both Norwegian) and I said that I went "oooh" when I first saw SoF and instantly started thinking about situations where it could be used to great effect. Really sad to see it go

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitus View Post
    Even if the talents that originally been announced stayed in place I don't think any ret in 99.5% of situations would have picked seal of faith.
    I would if that meant my raid setup could've dropped a healer :P
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    That's world PvP, with no Battle Fatigue. So, imagine how bad it is in Arena or RBGS.
    Battle Fatigue works in every PvP-Battle - even in world PvP.

  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire Smitus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    I would if that meant my raid setup could've dropped a healer :P
    I mean assuming the talent would be balanced so it wasn't super broken and wouldn't allow to solo heal raids or anything crazy broken :P
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  18. #38
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    I would use SoF (if it worked) to stack up healing power for a raid stack aoe cd moment, like Magaera in ToT when you killed a head, then throw down a buffed up Light's Hammer. If that worked you could prob turn your Light's Hammer into a mini Tranquility, if the rest of the fight is doable with 1 less healer then your ret (or multiple rets) could use that and basically allow you to bring another dpser. It's not like you'd ALWAYS use SoF throughout an encounter, you'd just switch for a little while to get to the number you needed for the thing you're assigned to do and the use regular seals the rest of the time. People got really put off by the damage reduction it carried I guess :P
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  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Kickbuttmario's Avatar
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    I'm actually thinking of rolling a tauren for the upcoming expansion as it is getting decent dps, healing, and tanking gains as the tauren is being benefited for all classes and specs.
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  20. #40
    Stood in the Fire Smitus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    I would use SoF (if it worked) to stack up healing power for a raid stack aoe cd moment, like Magaera in ToT when you killed a head, then throw down a buffed up Light's Hammer. If that worked you could prob turn your Light's Hammer into a mini Tranquility, if the rest of the fight is doable with 1 less healer then your ret (or multiple rets) could use that and basically allow you to bring another dpser. It's not like you'd ALWAYS use SoF throughout an encounter, you'd just switch for a little while to get to the number you needed for the thing you're assigned to do and the use regular seals the rest of the time. People got really put off by the damage reduction it carried I guess :P
    Well this is somewhat applicable, but on the same token, why not just bring 5 dps shamans who all bring AG and off-spec HTT and than bring 2 less healers? If SOF was so strong that it dwarfed all other hybrid raid cooldowns, then it would be too strong. My guess would be that bringing a ret to a competitive mythic raid would not be an efficient use of a player to have them "hybrid". Sacrificing a good chunk of dps for a small raid cooldown doesn't seem worth it in most situations where if the raid was that desperate for healers, it would be better just to drop a dps and pickup another full time healer.
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