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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Paladins do have an OH SHIT button. They have several, in fact. This is, historically-speaking, a very OH SHIT-oriented class. They're just not group/raidwide and they require some outside-box thinking and cooperation/coordination with the affected parties. So they don't seem as useful in the current game.

    Lay Hands, BoP, Divine Shield, and HoSac can all stop, with quick reactions and 1 GCD, a death from happening — just like that. It's "Nope. You're not dying." The end. No arguments. It's somewhat distinct to Pally healing.

    The problem with LoH is that tank healing isn't really a 'job' anymore with Active Mit so aggressively in place, and it's not something you stack CDs for. And for non-tanks that suddenly drop, you can usually provide enough healing to get the same end result with much simpler/shorter CDs for example a Shaman's Mastery+UL+AS+GHW or even just a timely crit from IoL DL.

    The problem with BoP & HoSac is they're creative use of game mechanics and require split-second coordination with multiple other players to use them effectively as an OH SHIT button in the good sense, instead of "OH SHIT we just lost 4 extra people, thank you idiot healer".

    The problem with Divine Shield is of course it only affects you, and there's been a creeping infection of abilities which just go "LOL NICE TRY PALADIN" right through it as the xpacs wear on.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Now you are being a bit confusing (if not contradictory, but I don't think you're intentionally doing so). What DO you want, if not a one-button mechanic? Perhaps an example spell of what you'd be looking for? Or an existing spell that you want a version of, something to get a point across I mean.

    P.S (Yes, I edited my post, but thought I'd note this): No player worth their account would not use an "oh shit" 3 minute CD that they had.
    Something along the lines of AoE healing that requires a multiple set up over the course of a fight, not just a "oh we made a huge mistake ima fix it with brain deadedness." It would need a penalty or set up time.

    Something like a martyr spell "Press this button killing yourself healing everyone for 30% of your max health in the raid, you cannot be revived through standard means until the fight is over." So you sacrifice yourself to save the raid from damage, but you can't contribute anymore as you cannot be battle rezzed.

    Another example would be that beacon takes .1% of all healing done by you and stores it up to 100% of the targets health. When the target takes lethal damage the beacon explodes healing everyone in the area for 30% of the health stored. Every time you switch your beacon it loses 5% of its store health.

    Flavor spells like that, with a huge penalty, or set up time that can't just be used to ignore mechanics. I'm just thinking along these lines cause i feel Holy Paladin lacks an iconic flavor spell or effect to call their own.

    This all sound sloppy cause i am spit balling and haven't really thought about it beyond today.
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  3. #23
    Hm, the talk of OHSHIT buttons reminds me of a time back in WotLK where we were doing H Festergut and the tank DC'd. A DPS DK went into frost presence and tanked there, and I popped AW and DF then bombed him with as much Holy Light as I could muster just in case he got crit. Luckily he didn't, but dang that was tense as he popped his own CDs too.

    I wouldn't say we don't have powerful enough CDs to handle clench stuff like that, but we do have an issue of having too many CDs and our throughput rather suffers if we don't use them.

    It'll be interesting to see the math on Readiness, not to mention which abilities they decide will benefit from it.
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  4. #24
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    So you've gone from "one button raid savers" to stuff that I mentioned like Spirit Shell that requires set-up time?

    Also, spells that kill yourself straight out are just stupid. The only reason you should ever kill yourself is if it's a wipe and you want to quickly end the encounter to restart it. Divine Intervention is not coming back nor would it be fun if it did. Stuff such as "martyr yourself to save the raid" such as dagger for Malice was hotfixed because straight out, it's stupid.

    Paladins have plenty of iconic abilities that they can call their own. Most healers do not have many iconic abilities that are unique to their healer spec, off the top of my head, the only one I can think of that's really both iconic (as in it does something "obvious" not a "minor" effect) and unique (as in no other class does anything similar) would be Spirit Link Totem on a shaman.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    OHSHIT in this convo means a big red emergency button you just slam your palm down on and it makes everything better. Especially one that does that raidwide or for a very large number of people, basically immediately turning around a potential full wipe or unhealable situation.

    Popping CDs and then using strong heals is a good idea, but it's not an OSHIT button in this sense, it's the normal response to things going tits-up. Because it takes way too many casts for it to "work" so while it can stop a bad situation, it doesn't turn things around from the very edge of being over in a second or two.

    And it's true Pally doesn't have that per se, but it's also true that many specs don't have that and it's not necessary for a spec to be effective (outside gimmick-stacking, but no one has every tool necessary to be picked in every gimmick situation).

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    That doesn't change the fact you're totally wrong. I'm not denying that Disc is overpowered when it comes to tuning, but it does not have one-button CD's and never has this expansion. Cascade/Divine Star/Halo are not one-button CD's just like Uplift and Healing Rain are not.
    Sorry, a 15/25/40 second cd revival isn't a one button raid cd. I totally never knew.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Spirit Shell while powerful is definitely far, far from what you are claiming and anyone who even knows a shred about priest would know that.
    Spirit Shell is THE best raid cd prior to the nerf. No other raid cd even pulls close to what it does, and anyone who has ever abused spirit shell would know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    There's zero correlation, let alone causation, between having a one-button YOLO and being overpowered.
    Pretty sure you are the only one making this assumption.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls
    There's zero correlation, let alone causation, between having a one-button YOLO and being overpowered.
    Pretty sure you are the only one making this assumption.
    In 5.2 when Revival was STOOOPIDLY overpowered and hitting for like 7-8 million in one global we were still using it to break stuns on Heroic Lei Shen. MW were not that strong then and even having a broken OSHI button didn't save them.

    It's perfectly fair to say that there is no correlation between OP 1 gcd buttons and a overpowered class. Without correlation there cannot be causation although the reverse is not true.

  8. #28
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    In 5.2 when Revival was STOOOPIDLY overpowered and hitting for like 7-8 million in one global we were still using it to break stuns on Heroic Lei Shen. MW were not that strong then and even having a broken OSHI button didn't save them.
    MW were good especially on Lei Shen, but overall that tier Paladins and Priests were both better despite them not having a one-button CD. (I don't use the word "oh shit button" because there is no such thing as a raid-wide "oh shit" button, if you have that button, your raid is either taking advantage of it already, or they are retarded).

    Anyway, I'll just repeat, anyone who plays a priest worth a salt knows that Spirit Shell while a very good button (and a better one pre-5.4) is definitely very far from a "one-button CD" let alone one that can be used in an "oh shit" manner.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Virsta1 View Post
    I love holy paladins and holy paladins culture,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    More of a bacterial culture at times...
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Spirit Shell is THE best raid cd prior to the nerf. No other raid cd even pulls close to what it does, and anyone who has ever abused spirit shell would know that.
    It still isn't an "Oh Shit" button. At this point you really are just arguing to argue. At no point was it said that spirit shell wasn't a good cooldown, so just stop trying to create arguments out of nothing like you always do.

  11. #31
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    Please keep this on topic about Holy Paladins. Drawing some comparisons to other specs if fine when it makes sense in context but bickering endlessly over whose HPS or CDs or whatever beats whose is not furthering the discussion in a productive manner.

    Thanks.
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  12. #32
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Anyway, the last thing we need as a class (and in the game) is more tranquility-type "one button top raid off" abilities. I'd rather see cooldowns that fit the class. So something like Holy Avenger, but baseline. Definitely something less boring than Divine Favor currently. Another option could be to rework the entire 75 talent tier (many Rets want Divine Purpose baseline) and to remove Holy Avenger but bake its effects in Divine Favor. So a nice, powerful (more than today's multiple mediocre) raid cooldown could work like this:

    Divine Favor (3 minute CD): Your Holy Power finishers heal for an additional 30%, and triggers 100% extra Illuminated Healing. In addition, Holy Shock generates 3 Holy Power, and its cooldown is reduced by 50%. (The 100% additional IH would be on top of the 30% healing which would transfer also; this is, of course, assuming that IH baseline will be much, much lower than it is today).

    It would be a very simple rotation (Holy Shock - Finisher repeated) while up, but it would be very fun to use compared to just casting a Healing Tide Totem, and would be powerful enough to be considered a proper "top up" CD while still being meaningfully different than say Divine Hymn.

  13. #33
    Stood in the Fire Smitus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Divine Favor (3 minute CD): Your Holy Power finishers heal for an additional 30%, and triggers 100% extra Illuminated Healing. In addition, Holy Shock generates 3 Holy Power, and its cooldown is reduced by 50%. (The 100% additional IH would be on top of the 30% healing which would transfer also; this is, of course, assuming that IH baseline will be much, much lower than it is today).
    This cooldown would scale WAYYY too well. You would either want to cut out the 3hp for a HS part of the 50% CD reduced on HS part.
    This would basically be a spirit shell on steroids IN ADDITION to what holy avenger is now. In scenarios of heavy drawn-out and consistent raid damage this cooldown would be like having tranq up the whole duration.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Divine Favor (3 minute CD): Your Holy Power finishers heal for an additional 30%, and triggers 100% extra Illuminated Healing. In addition, Holy Shock generates 3 Holy Power, and its cooldown is reduced by 50%. (The 100% additional IH would be on top of the 30% healing which would transfer also; this is, of course, assuming that IH baseline will be much, much lower than it is today).
    It would be a very simple rotation (Holy Shock - Finisher repeated) while up, but it would be very fun to use compared to just casting a Healing Tide Totem, and would be powerful enough to be considered a proper "top up" CD while still being meaningfully different than say Divine Hymn.
    Except its still fucking shit compared to Tranq/Hymn/HTT.

    A major issue that I highlighted after the Blizzcon stats/presentation to Celestalon(who mostly ignored it) was that Readiness as a stat doesn't work when your cds are bad/worse because there's no real gain(while at the same time Readiness was matched against Mastery/Haste/etc) .
    Worse if Readiness gets tied to stuff like Devotion Aura you'll probably see encounters with 2 min aoe that needs to be DA'd you being forced to get your DA to 2 mins(despite it being a potentially shit stat).

    I really hope they reign down aoe spam healing this expansion. Its skillless and boring.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2014-03-04 at 06:15 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    A major issue that I highlighted after the Blizzcon stats/presentation to Celestalon(who mostly ignored it) was that Readiness as a stat doesn't work when your cds are bad/worse because there's no real gain(while at the same time Readiness was matched against Mastery/Haste/etc).
    I expect the reason it was ignored is because each spec will have its own scaling with regards to Readiness. Thus, they'll tweak it such that it will not be a crappy stat even if the cooldowns it affects aren't something to write home about.

    I really hope they reign down aoe spam healing this expansion. Its skillless and boring.
    It might be, but do keep in mind now that tanks have active mitigation they have to walk the line of making a tank feel like their abilities are worthwhile while still making healers feel useful. The easy way to work on that is AoE damage. Hopefully with the lessons learned from MoP they can get the right balance between single target and AoE damage.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2014-03-04 at 06:21 PM.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    No, absolutely not. Tying core healing mechanics into lack of overhealing is an extremely clumsy solution ESPECIALLY when it comes to generating proactive heals and worse yet resource mechanics. That's just a horrible idea.
    Well this is obviously where we disagree. I don't think IH should be a core healing mechanic. Overheal shielding is necessary right now, but imo Paladins shouldn't be playing like that. We don't have to tools a disc priest does to be able to be tactical about shields. Our only option is to dump a ton of mana into a fairly weak spell so we can get a much weaker shield. I think it's horrible as a healing style.

    I'm purposefully trying get rid of 'generating proactive heals' from IH, which in this scenario means mindless spamming your most expensive spell on raid members on full health. It's awful. In my suggestion mastery becomes a passive bonus which excels most when big damage is going out, which is where I think it should sit.

    There has to be less clumsy ways of proactive healing that can be introduced rather than relying on our awful IH mechanics as the only way. I despair if things stay the same. Truly terrible.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    I expect the reason it was ignored is because each spec will have its own scaling with regards to Readiness. Thus, they'll tweak it such that it will not be a crappy stat even if the cooldowns it affects aren't something to write home about.
    The problem is encounters are generally tuned to have deadly abilities happen every (Base CD-usually 3 mins/ Number chosen by developer) seconds. It doesn't help that much that your healing cd returns 20 secs before a resto druid's does if you both only need to pop it 5 seconds after.

    It might be, but do keep in mind now that tanks have active mitigation they have to walk the line of making a tank feel like their abilities are worthwhile while still making healers feel useful. The easy way to work on that is AoE damage. Hopefully with the lessons learned from MoP they can get the right balance between single target and AoE damage.
    Active Mitigation is one thing, the stupid amount of self healing they do is something else entirely. There will be 4 healers in Mythical Progression on bosses that matter(and sometimes even 3). Its a bad idea to have tanks selfheal for more then 10%, and this is one chapter that will affect holy paladin viability greatly.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2014-03-04 at 06:32 PM.

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Well this is obviously where we disagree. I don't think IH should be a core healing mechanic. Overheal shielding is necessary right now, but imo Paladins shouldn't be playing like that. We don't have to tools a disc priest does to be able to be tactical about shields. Our only option is to dump a ton of mana into a fairly weak spell so we can get a much weaker shield. I think it's horrible as a healing style.
    Then get rid of IH (and figure out something to replace it with), but having a core mechanic be triggered only by effective (and not over) heals is absolutely dumb and dare I say, retarded.

    The best you can hope for when it comes to rewarding effective healing is a copy of Resto Shaman mastery, basically, only a throughput boost.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Well this is obviously where we disagree. I don't think IH should be a core healing mechanic. Overheal shielding is necessary right now, but imo Paladins shouldn't be playing like that. We don't have to tools a disc priest does to be able to be tactical about shields. Our only option is to dump a ton of mana into a fairly weak spell so we can get a much weaker shield. I think it's horrible as a healing style.

    I'm purposefully trying get rid of 'generating proactive heals' from IH, which in this scenario means mindless spamming your most expensive spell on raid members on full health. It's awful. In my suggestion mastery becomes a passive bonus which excels most when big damage is going out, which is where I think it should sit.

    There has to be less clumsy ways of proactive healing that can be introduced rather than relying on our awful IH mechanics as the only way. I despair if things stay the same. Truly terrible.
    If IH gets tied to effective healing it gets so devalued as a stat that we'll want zero of it on gear. The reason why it's good at all is that it generates full value even in overheal situations. If it goes to baseline holy passive and we get a new mastery then whatever I guess but I seriously doubt that will happen.

  20. #40
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    A major issue that I highlighted after the Blizzcon stats/presentation to Celestalon(who mostly ignored it) was that Readiness as a stat doesn't work when your cds are bad/worse because there's no real gain(while at the same time Readiness was matched against Mastery/Haste/etc) .
    Worse if Readiness gets tied to stuff like Devotion Aura you'll probably see encounters with 2 min aoe that needs to be DA'd you being forced to get your DA to 2 mins(despite it being a potentially shit stat).
    I pointed it out too on Twitter, but if Readiness affects 3 minute CD's it will be breakpointed... not "might" but will.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    If IH gets tied to effective healing it gets so devalued as a stat that we'll want zero of it on gear. The reason why it's good at all is that it generates full value even in overheal situations. If it goes to baseline holy passive and we get a new mastery then whatever I guess but I seriously doubt that will happen.
    Not even that, it just makes for extraordinarily shitty gameplay. We want healers to have more fun during farm, not less, and making a healing class literally "break" because you cannot get off effective healing is absolutely stupid.

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