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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by mezmer1411 View Post
    Guess you meant LoD here. Or was it WoG?
    WoG, my bad

  2. #662
    For those interested, bouch did some comparative math with the updated DP on his blog, here: http://holybouch.com/2014/04/24/acti...urtis-edition/

  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    the 7% value is fine on divine plea. anything higher and i would argue you would just never use anything but divine plea because atm i think ef/lod/wog do not do more healing than you could do with 7% of your max mana. you may do less hps (you're losing 1 healing spell every 12-18 seconds after all) but your overall healing would be higher and you would have more longevity.
    The value in Divine Plea isn't the biggest issue, what is the biggest issue right now is the lack of effective downtime HP generation compared to other classes and total inability to DPS with a meaningful side benefit, like other classes.

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    The value in Divine Plea isn't the biggest issue, what is the biggest issue right now is the lack of effective downtime HP generation compared to other classes and total inability to DPS with a meaningful side benefit, like other classes.
    How much time will you expect for a healer to spend on DPS (other than atonement and fistweave)? How silly is a raid to ask for dps from a healer?

  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by paladative View Post
    How much time will you expect for a healer to spend on DPS (other than atonement and fistweave)? How silly is a raid to ask for dps from a healer?
    For the first question that is obviously fight dependent. On "burst" type fights with on-off damage (most fights in Siege of Orgrimmar qualify for this including ALL of the last three, hardest, bosses) there is plenty of time both at say the start of an encounter and various times where one can weave damage abilities during low-incoming-damage phases. On fights with pulsing sustained damage there might be less time, one wouldn't expect to have time to Denounce-spam during Iron Juggernaut for instance.

    For the second question, it is not at all especially if most healers are getting something from the DPS; i.e. either healing from atonement and eminence, or mana regeneration which can be used for future healing. Which means that you are contributing your DPS at no loss, still being able to do your job (assuming relative downtime).

    That's huge when it comes to tight DPS checks of which we can expect a ton especially in early tiers.

    Being able to weave in a few Denounces and have it be relatively neutral if not straight out mana-positive instead of a loss would be a quality of life change I think we should expect and can reasonably expect given that every other healer has that ability.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-04-24 at 04:31 PM.

  6. #666
    In early tiers, with low tank and healer ilvl, we should be always busy with topping the tank or keep the raid safe. Even if we have to denounce to help pushing phase sometimes, I would thank DP regen to allow me that luxury of mana, that's basically the same deal. BTW, fistweavers need a strong non-dpsing healer to watch their back.

  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by paladative View Post
    I would thank DP regen to allow me that luxury of mana
    You realize that DP regen isn't this "extra" regen compared to "normal" regen, correct? There's nothing to "thank" and no "luxury" given.

    The fact is, other healers casting CJL, offensive Penance, Lightning Bolt are gaining mana per cast and doing DPS per cast. Denounce is losing mana per cast and doing less DPS per cast. The actual % mana isn't the concern at this point, nor do I think Plea is a bad mechanic, rather, I think our HP generation is the bad mechanic at this point.

    Druids, who have a shorter end of the stick, also lose mana "normally" when casting Wrath/Moonfire but they have talents (level 90) that are all around adding DPS to their healing rotation, as part of their class package - so in effect, they can DPS effectively during regen as well.


    P.S. In the early tier of MOP, there was plenty of downtime when healing. And damage mattered, sometimes a lot. Logic that "early tier = always busy" 100% invalid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway, idea as I posted earlier and think it is better more and more:

    * Increase Cast Time of Denounce to 2-2.5 seconds (give it more commitment). Increase damage done accordingly (33-67%).
    * Remove the Mana Cost on Denounce (the commitment should be the cast time).
    * Give Denounce a ~50% chance to generate Holy Power. This would make Denounce mana-positive when weaved and helpful when using it at the start, but the unreliable factor would prevent it from becoming a rotational HP generator. If you need to heal, Denounce should not be the solution over using healing spells.

  8. #668
    If I wanted to DPS, I would have rolled a DPS. I'm of the opinion that 0 DPS should be expected of any healer and timers/enrages should not be balanced with the expectation that healers are going to DPS. If a healer wants to do DPS, fine, but it should have heavy restrictions - similar to a ret pally only being able to flash heal a few times and then oom.

    Just like how they're taking away a bunch of raid/healing CDs from DPS, they should be taking away DPS abilities from healers. It's not a healers job and it shouldn't be expected.
    Last edited by Lumineux; 2014-04-24 at 07:04 PM.

  9. #669
    Once they add dps to all healers, they will need to balance it as well. Can we get the healing balanced first? And then go to healers' dps?

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    If I wanted to DPS, I would have rolled a DPS. I'm of the opinion that 0 DPS should be expected of any healer and timers/enrages should not be balanced with the expectation that healers are going to DPS. If a healer wants to do DPS, fine, but it should have heavy restrictions - similar to a ret pally only being able to flash heal a few times and then oom. Just like how they're taking away a bunch of raid/healing CDs from DPS, they should be taking away DPS abilities from healers. It's not a healers job and it shouldn't be expected.
    I agree with your statement wholeheartedly, but at this point with all of the passive DPS offered by the other four healing classes in game, we need some to compete. It's even worse than WW Monks in MOP, because unlike raid cooldowns which are less important the more you have, DPS is always, always important.

    Until DPS on other healers is gutted, let alone the passive DPS while still maintaining 100% healing offered by all four specs now, we will be 100% behind without contributing DPS without a significant loss in healing as well.

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    If I wanted to DPS, I would have rolled a DPS. I'm of the opinion that 0 DPS should be expected of any healer and timers/enrages should not be balanced with the expectation that healers are going to DPS. If a healer wants to do DPS, fine, but it should have heavy restrictions - similar to a ret pally only being able to flash heal a few times and then oom.

    Just like how they're taking away a bunch of raid/healing CDs from DPS, they should be taking away DPS abilities from healers. It's not a healers job and it shouldn't be expected.
    in your world where dc priests, crane stance and heart of the wild do not exist this could work. in real world you will get benched if you are doing 0 dps

    a mythic raid can use 4 hotw resto druids and a dc priest. all druids pop hotw during bloodlust, priest pop power infusuion and you have 2 tanks and 18 dps out of nowhere

    there is no place for pure healadin especially because you cant cover damage spikes with htt/tranq/snoke bomb

    - - - Updated - - -

    divine plea - 9% mana back
    denounce - 1.5s cast, gives 1 holy power, 2% mana cost
    holy shock - gives 1 holy power, 2% mana cost
    hammer of wrath - free, usable at 20%, does not give holypower
    rotation to get mana:
    denounce, denounce, holy shock, divine plea, gives back 3% mana. 6 sec execution time
    dpct of denounce and holy shock should be 4/3 of shaman's lightning because of 1.5 sec divine plea downtime

    something like this can work for paladins.

    other possible tricks:
    * use divine plea while healing
    * use a healing finisher instead of a mana regen one
    * use denounce / hotw instead of divine plea to get more dps

    also i'd like to see a small dps cd like shadow fiend or fire elemental. probably an inquisition
    Last edited by btard; 2014-04-24 at 09:41 PM.

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by btard View Post
    divine plea - 9% mana back
    denounce - 1.5s cast, gives 1 holy power, 2% mana cost
    holy shock - gives 1 holy power, 2% mana cost
    hammer of wrath - free, usable at 20%, does not give holypower
    rotation to get mana:
    denounce, denounce, holy shock, divine plea, gives back 3% mana. 6 sec execution time
    dpct of denounce and holy shock should be 4/3 of shaman's lightning because of 1.5 sec divine plea downtime
    You didn't think this through, because you would just be spamming Denounce most of a fight for HP to use for healing. You'd have to way, way rebalance HP generator heals versus finisher heals. It would have been like MOP beta Power Word: Solace, when that's all you cast mostly.

    Anyway, that was a big reason why I actually believe Denounce should be unreliable for HP, it would give you some reward for DPS (averages) while you can't rely on it to use as part of a rotation.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-04-24 at 09:46 PM.

  13. #673
    i dont think so.
    flash of light - 7.4% mana
    holy radiance - 9.8% mana

    using holy power for heal would be an option, but if you dont need that healing right now - use plea right now and FoL / HR later

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by btard View Post
    using holy power for heal would be an option, but if you dont need that healing right now - use plea right now and FoL / HR later
    With your system that would be way less mana efficient and less DPS. Might be less healing, but if it would be overhealing anyway...

  15. #675
    i got these numbers from 2 simple assumptions:
    3% mana for 1 holy power (blood elf racial)
    0.5% mana back per second of dps rotation (like all other healing specs except dc priests)
    i think that denounce - denounce - holy shock - divine plea combo should deal same damage as 2.4 shaman's lightning bolts to get same dps while you are using this for mana regen.

    that means that ignoring divine plea will give you more dps. you may use denounce - denounce - denouce - holyshock or denoucne - denounce - hotw - holyshok to get maximal dps
    using one of these will waste your holy power eventually and cost you 8% mana per 6-second cycle. this is an option that shamans, for instance, wont not have and i am fine with it. divine plea shouldnt work like telluric currents.
    Last edited by btard; 2014-04-24 at 10:19 PM.

  16. #676
    So after my initial frantic hand-waving and screeching like Chicken Little, I've come down a little and looking at the way the new DP will function it's not that dissimilar from the old DP. The OLD old DP. The one that reduced healing while it was active. If we're in a regen phase of the fight, it's expected that damage will be rather light so we end up doing a generator rotation and then recover a portion of that back. Effectively we reduce our output over time to spend less mana for the same output. Whether or not the 7% number is right is something mathier people than me will have to figure out.

    Thanks to those of you who gently nudged me in a less hysterical direction, you know who you are.
    Living the casual life, oh yeah.

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by paladative View Post
    As the numbers from beta database http://beta.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#J
    WoG(3HP) is the same as HL (both 218% holy sp)

    This means, for pve holy paladin, EF and WoG are completely dead.
    Umm, EF healing isn't altogether that different from LoD considering 0% overheal.

    Also, EF healing has to be considered together with beacon transfers.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  18. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    So after my initial frantic hand-waving and screeching like Chicken Little, I've come down a little and looking at the way the new DP will function it's not that dissimilar from the old DP. The OLD old DP. The one that reduced healing while it was active. If we're in a regen phase of the fight, it's expected that damage will be rather light so we end up doing a generator rotation and then recover a portion of that back. Effectively we reduce our output over time to spend less mana for the same output. Whether or not the 7% number is right is something mathier people than me will have to figure out.

    Thanks to those of you who gently nudged me in a less hysterical direction, you know who you are.

    Go back to being hysterical!

  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    So after my initial frantic hand-waving and screeching like Chicken Little, I've come down a little and looking at the way the new DP will function it's not that dissimilar from the old DP. The OLD old DP. The one that reduced healing while it was active. If we're in a regen phase of the fight, it's expected that damage will be rather light so we end up doing a generator rotation and then recover a portion of that back. Effectively we reduce our output over time to spend less mana for the same output. Whether or not the 7% number is right is something mathier people than me will have to figure out.
    The ability itself is fine, as is the idea of "weaving" it as it should be done. What's less fine is that you can't actually use the ability during pure downtime, just relatively small damage phases, since as many have pointed out, it's not a downtime gain at all.

    That, though, is a problem with our generators, not with Divine Plea itself.

  20. #680
    Deleted
    While the issue remains that Divine Plea doesn't generate mana out of nothingness like other healer active mana regens... 7% mana is probably too much for the early part of content. Probably.

    I wouldn't cast a WoG(which past all modifiers heals for pretty much the same as Holy Light) for 7% mana. Ever. Which means LoD or DP, usually DP...specially early on.I don't think its a fun gameplay doing Holy Lights and Holy Shocks * infinity and then restoring mana with DP just to do it all over again.
    Last edited by mmoc5ef3a4fb0f; 2014-04-24 at 11:53 PM.

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