[WoD] Holy Paladin Megathread

[Iceadin]

i probably should try to explain this simple thing again

if you cast 1hp fininsher you get 10 secs of hot + 15 secs of mastery. that means 25s total shield duration
if you cast 3hp finisher you get 30 secs of hot + 15 secs of mastery. that means 45s total shield duration or 15s of shield duration per holy power spent.

as you can see it's still more beneficial to use 1 or 2 hp finishers to cover the entire raid with mastery shields. the cast time on EF doesnt change anything since you spend the same 1.5s of time for an instant cast.

It will not be worth it.

Celestalon even said the same thing. https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...13477654671360

[btard]

oh if he says so that definitely means that it's not worth it. i bet everyone will use old good HS EF HR EF once raiding starts

[Iceadin]

like i said, read patch notes:

"Consumes up to 3 Holy Power to place a protective Holy flame on a friendly target, which heals them for (88.1969% of Spell power) and an additional (16.0285% of Spell power) every 2 sec for 10 sec. Initial healing amount and heal over time duration increased per charge of Holy Power. The heal over time is increased by 50% if used on the Paladin."

also all HP spenders have a 1.5 sec cast.

Read this very carefully

[btard]

if you couldnt read two my posts http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post27709280 and http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post27709717 then i guess repeating it third time wont make you get it... i dunno. let's try another approach. before the change 1hp EF gave you 45s of shield. after the change 1hp EF would give you 25s of shield. that's -20 seconds shield duration nerf, but 25s of shield is good enough. if you are afraid of throughput loss of 3x 1hp EF (4.5s to cast) compared to 1x 3hp EF (1.5s to cast) you can try 2hp EF.

as i said it many times you do not lose hot magnitude if you are using 1-2hp EF, only some time. whether this playstyle is worth using or not depends on 3 factors:

1. holy paladin dps capabilities (lol). you can use that 3s difference to contribute to raid damage
2. cheap hp generation on HL. it was proven op during 4.0 and was nerfed during first week of normal raids and this is a good nerf candidate for WoD. if this would go to beta, it may be worth using HS HL HL to cast 3hp EF because of low HL cost.
3. unknown raid damage profile that could make rolling mastery work or not work.

i dont see any points in deep theorycrafting these builds because they are not finished yet. there are several statements made by blizzard (like they are nerfing absorbs or healers are never going oom, or every healer got a free dps spells) that still hold false. right now we should focus on overall paladin toolset or on other things like quests, leveling, garrisons etc.

[Clrg]

They can also nerf hammer mastery rating again like in 5.4.

[btard]

yep that's another highly possible nerf that will kill mastery blanketing and mastery stacking both

[nightfalls]

1 hp EF - 25 sec shield, full scale hot
2 hp EF - 35 sec shield, full scale hot
3 hp EF - 45 sec shield, full scale hot

You have this assumption that shield duration (and not total throughput) is everything that matters.

right now there is no reason not to cast 1hp EF because it has no downsides. you get less overhealing from initial heal, more shields per holy power, full scale hot on everyone and more ppl covered

Downside: Throughput loss, just like it was a throughput loss in all of Pandaria. If you can't understand why this is there's no need for any of us to continue talking to you, and no need for you to keep polluting this thread.

right now i do HS-J-HR-LoD until i go OOM. then i do HS-J-Nothing-LoD until i stack 3 stacks of SH on every possible encounter. probably because EF does not stack mastery.

I'm glad you (hopefully) aren't in a serious guild, because your healing rotations both for EF and SH are awful and if I knew my co-paladin were doing that I'd see them kicked before their trial was passed.

[Deleted]

2. cheap hp generation on HL. it was proven op during 4.0 and was nerfed during first week of normal raids and this is a good nerf candidate for WoD. if this would go to beta, it may be worth using HS HL HL to cast 3hp EF because of low HL cost.

Conditions were very different back then for paladins and for the other healing classes. HL->ToR was miles ahead on efficiency compared to anything the other healer classes had and Blizzard was confused and thought mana would be important for that expansion(that went well when 3 months from the nerf the druids were not going oom when reforging/gearing out of spirit). LoD was also much stronger and more fitting the "finisher" part, it actually got nerfed by like 40% during that hotfix and became unable to transfer to beacon(this part got reverted).

Please don't add 2expansions ago changes as facts for future changes.

[Jackielope]

Using 1HP Eternal Flames to roll shields on the whole raid won't be worth it. Period. Absorbs in general are getting nerfed across the board. Couple that with the duration nerf and the throughput loss and it's deader than melee hunter.

Yes, we get what you're saying; that rolling the absorbs seems good for 1HP. It won't be. It's shit. Drop it like the steaming turd it is.

[Simulacrum]

that's what he means when he says free

no healer does "free damage". every spell costs mana.

Your first sentence makes almost no sense.

Your second sentence is wrong.

[btard]

Conditions were very different back then for paladins and for the other healing classes. HL->ToR was miles ahead on efficiency compared to anything the other healer classes had and Blizzard was confused and thought mana would be important for that expansion(that went well when 3 months from the nerf the druids were not going oom when reforging/gearing out of spirit). LoD was also much stronger and more fitting the "finisher" part, it actually got nerfed by like 40% during that hotfix and became unable to transfer to beacon(this part got reverted).

Please don't add 2expansions ago changes as facts for future changes.

nope that's absolutely the same situation. blizzard expect paladins to have some decent holy power generation. i dunno what is in their minds exact, but the number is quite close to 1-1.5 per 5 seconds. they balance the finishers accordingly. on the other hand we always try to get as much holy power as possible, breaking blizzard expectations. we've used holy light to beacon, pvp set, pve set that made hs 4s cd, crusader strike to gain that cheap holy power and use it on our strong finishers. if HL to beacon of faith spam will break blizzard expectations on our hp generation speed they will nerf it.

iirc mop versions of EF and LoD are better than cata LoD in terms of both utility and throughput, but i may be wrong. at least mop LoD > cata LoD in terms of utility.

Downside: Throughput loss, just like it was a throughput loss in all of Pandaria.

no it was not. if you get 0 mana at the end of the fight, your HPS does not matter, only HPM. you cant spend more mana than you have. in WoD there may be some free/mana-efficient actions you could spend your time on. or they may get nerfed/removed, to early to discuss them.

Using 1HP Eternal Flames to roll shields on the whole raid won't be worth it. Period. Absorbs in general are getting nerfed across the board. Couple that with the duration nerf and the throughput loss and it's deader than melee hunter.

Yes, we get what you're saying; that rolling the absorbs seems good for 1HP. It won't be. It's shit. Drop it like the steaming turd it is.

what are you going to use during extra 3s?
1.2 holy lights to beacon of faith?
1.2 holy linghts to a raid member?
2 denounces?
a holy radiance or flash of light that will kill your mana?
a jump may be?

i dont see any silver bullet here that will increase my throughput. by not casting HL i could save mana for another HR+daybreak when i need it and none knows if denounce is free or not

[nightfalls]

no it was not. if you get 0 mana at the end of the fight, your HPS does not matter, only HPM. you cant spend more mana than you have. in WoD there may be some free/mana-efficient actions you could spend your time on. or they may get nerfed/removed, to early to discuss them.

That's way oversimplistic. Almost no fights actually work that way, especially pre-5.4.

what are you going to use during extra 3s?

Put more EF out?

[btard]

That's way oversimplistic. Almost no fights actually work that way, especially pre-5.4.

dunno, arbitrary numbers. you have 10 min fight, you have 2.5kk mana. 4s hs cd with set. in reality you will cast it every 4.5 or 5 seconds. that means that you will spend 1.1kk - 1.2kk mana only on holy shocks doing math at night may lead to mistakes, but 5.3 holy shocks did eat a lot of your mana pool. that didnt leave much room for holy radiance, so you didnt lose the troughput with 1hp EF. if you was lucky to stay in melee, you got even more mana and an option to use cheap CS

Put more EF out?

to put more EF you need more hp. you cant cast more holy shocks because of cd. you cant cast more HR because you have no mana. but you can cast HL to your beacon of faith. this is a nice option, if blizzard decides to keep it, and it may beat 1hp EF spam. but there are two things that will make HL hp generator a #1 nerf candidate.

first of all HL as hp generator promotes beacon of faith swapping gameplay. you put beacon of faith to your target, cast 1-2 HL to it, then swap it again. blizzard doesnt want us to use beacon of faith + swapping and if you want something-swapping gameplay, you got beacon of insight that swaps for you automatically and should be used when 1 beacon is enough for healing.

second is blizzard statement that "You'll never end up in a situation where you run OOM and are unable to cast anything." to me never means never. i.e. if i have 0 spirit and 30% of haste (a reasonable buffed number), that means that i still can spam my holy light. we have 2% mp5 base regen, so HL cost should be lower than 0.77% of mana. if blizzard are fine with this cheap holy power source, then we will abuse it as hard as we can.

[Floopa]

Your first sentence makes almost no sense.

Your second sentence is wrong.

show me where the MW can do damage without expending mana.

show me where the druid can do damage without expending mana.

denounce is perfectly fine to quench your silly "omg we need this or we're worst healer xd" thirsts.

[MCC]

show me where the MW can do damage without expending mana.

show me where the druid can do damage without expending mana.

denounce is perfectly fine to quench your silly "omg we need this or we're worst healer xd" thirsts.

How about this, Floopa?

Crackling Jade Lightning's throughput has been increased by 100%, but it no longer generates Chi for Mistweaver Monks. Additionally, it is free in Stance of the Wise Serpent.

Source: click here.

That good enough for ya? Seriously...

[Hyphyjiuce]

Also important to note, all healers have some way to deal minor damage with no Mana cost now, so that they have something to do when there is no healing needed, if you're the type of player that feels compelled to always be casting something.

The last sentence from Clestelon's update post regarding "active mana regeneration".

[Bartolo]

Is it planned that we'll get better abilities for questing as holy?

[nightfalls]

Is it planned that we'll get better abilities for questing as holy?

I don't think Blizzard really cares about healers questing that much anymore (except maybe Priest) since with gear auto-flipping basically you can use Ret/Prot with your healer gear set.

Even with healer questing QoL with Priest it's only really "important" that Red Chakra is OK.

[Floopa]

How about this, Floopa?


Source: click here.

That good enough for ya? Seriously...

in serpent stance CJL hits for 175 every sec for 4 sec.

http://imgur.com/DctWD9v

so yea, over 3.63 (my haste) sec i can do 600 dmg. guess we know who to blame when the boss kills the raid at 1% life.

i swear lol

[Lucyrotten]

in serpent stance CJL hits for 175 every sec for 4 sec.

http://imgur.com/DctWD9v

so yea, over 3.63 (my haste) sec i can do 600 dmg. guess we know who to blame when the boss kills the raid at 1% life.

i swear lol

You're all being ridiculous and derailing this thread beyond the pale. The statement was "other healers have FREE damage" and you said there was no "free" and was proven wrong. You don't now get to argue that your free damage is inconsequential since that's another argument.

The discussion of whether or not all healers should have meaningful free damage is not completely trivial, but should not, imo be the focus of the discussion about what contribution holy paladins (or mistweavers) bring to a raid. If other classes are concerned that their hybrid tax won't make them viable, then go your own class forums and talk about it there.

I have some concerns about the direction of holy pallies but until alpha hits 100 and we start raid testing, it's all speculative.

I love you all, have a super day.