Race elitism

[Levyan]

The abuse would be expecting a top-end guild to tolerate your trivial preferences.

Not to pick on you in particular, but I find this interesting coming from you as an example. You are in a great guild (8th US 10H). You are alliance. You are a human rogue. And you use daggers. You seem to be a great example of a guild that does not actually care about race that much. Based on Blizzard's race trait changes, everyone worried about racials right now should be horde and either troll or orc. Even as alliance, the expertise/root break from gnome, food buff from panda or at least the movement bonuses of NE or worgen are stronger than the "free pvp trinket".

@OP: some raid leaders just want to see that you are doing absolutely everything in your power to stack the odds in your favor for max output. The numbers from being the troll seem to be significant enough to use as a qualifier atm since Blizzard is nerfing trolls in the future. Many hardcore guilds are elitist, many are not. Really, its their choice who they want on their team and if it really is symbolic of their elitism, I would think you would be unlikely to fit in with their current team's mentality.

[Deleted]

People who raid at the top would want to race change since it will improve their character's performance, regardless of how big or small the difference is

If top end guilds want to treat game like a job, they can but it is stupid. I play my games to relax and since i am paying for it, no offense but i will be choosing what is right way to play a game and not some jerks,

My few cents here.

The choice you make is to join the guild that wants you to play the most optimal race for your class/spec. Clearly you wouldn't join said guild in the first place so your few cents doesn't really assist the OP, not to mention that it doesn't even address his question on top guilds which require Class X to be Race Y.

[Durantye]

Still waiting for this point.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Norushen/...14/60/default/ Affliction still highest though not by the stupid margin that everyone seems to believe plus affliction is padding to the extreme.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Sha_of_Pr...14/60/default/ Yes destro is sitting at 20k above but if you look at the logs a very large portion is from aoeing the reflections so it is padding thus negligible. But not higher by extremity and http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Sha_of_Pr...14/60/default/ for less padding destro warlocks are sitting fairly low due to it still being a difficult boss for some guilds so less padding.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Galakras/...14/60/default/ not exactly sitting on a throne, but still in a top spot with a spec.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Iron_Jugg...14/60/default/ affliction is top but not really breaking meters with destro sitting dead center.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Kor'kron_...14/60/default/ this one has affliction as extremely high from the 4 targets on pull so yes we bend this one over and have our way thoroughly.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/General_N...14/60/default/ affliction continuing to be broken as fuck though destro isn't exactly sharing the trend.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Malkorok/...14/60/default/ combat rogues likely turn blade flurry on for the adds here, but a fairly balanced fight dps wise.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spoils_of...14/60/default/ yes destro is on top but not exactly by an extreme margin.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Thok_the_...14/60/default/ This one is a broken fight affliction can continue a near full rotation by simply canceling for a second and resuming, not a really good fight to compare since so many classes are affected so differently.

[Deleted]

So what kind of difference does race make for PvE performance?
I'd think it's only important at the very high end.

[Anzen]

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Norushen/...14/60/default/ Affliction still highest though not by the stupid margin that everyone seems to believe plus affliction is padding to the extreme.

<snip>

Genuinely laughed, I imply Warlocks top, and you disagree by linking logs and telling me warlocks top. You also forgot to link Immerseus & Protectors (of which they also top). Only 11/12 bosses though they are number 1 on RaidBots, you pose a good argument.

Don't worry, I have friends who play lock and also seem to be oblivious to the current state of Warlocks. It's always "we're good but..."

[Ryme]

So what kind of difference does race make for PvE performance?
I'd think it's only important at the very high end.

For my combat rogue, best to worst (Troll -> Dwarf) accounts for about a 1% dps loss on non-beast enemies.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Elitist is thinking everyone that can't/doesn't do the stuff you do are horrible, not necessarily thinking you are better than you are.

I don't see anything about the word 'horrible' in the OP. If you apply in a hardcore guild and you're being turned down, it's not because of 'elitism' and them thinking you're 'horrible', it's just that you don't fit the mindset of a hardcore raiding guild.

It has absolutely zero to do with elitism.

Imagine a person applying for some highly payed job and then crying 'elitism' when he is turned down due to his lack of experience, achievements and abilities.

[Bllets]

Snippidy snap.

Protectors: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Falle...14/60/default/ Not even funny
Norushen: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Norushen/...14/60/default/ Destruction way ahead
Sha of Pride: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Sha_of_Pr...14/60/default/ Again, but adds make a big difference here.
Galakras: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Galakras/...14/60/default/ Destruction far superior
Juggernaut: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Iron_Jugg...14/60/default/ Much closer fight
Shamans: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Kor&#39;kron_...14/60/default/ Again not close
Nazgrim: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/General_N...14/60/default/ Locks are #1 and #2
Malkorok: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Malkorok/...14/60/default/ Locks are #2 and #3

The picture is much more different on 10man.

[Anzen]

<snip>

The picture is much more different on 10man.

Yes, Warlocks are strong but [ X ].

[Durantye]

Genuinely laughed, I imply Warlocks top, and you disagree by linking logs and telling me warlocks top. You also forgot to link Immerseus & Protectors (of which they also top). Only 11/12 bosses though they are number 1 on RaidBots, you pose a good argument.

Don't worry, I have friends who play lock and also seem to be oblivious to the current state of Warlocks. It's always "we're good but..."

I'm well aware we are the top and affliction is broken in several languages that should be banned from bible use. Though we aren't quite in the state that others believe we are completely broken (which affliction is on some fights) though the logs suggest although we are top we aren't fully broken and everyone assumes they are miles behind which they are not (unless you are shadow priest then you have my condolences). Destruction balances out but affliction is still broken on many fights I suppose.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't see anything about the word 'horrible' in the OP. If you apply in a hardcore guild and you're being turned down, it's not because of 'elitism' and them thinking you're 'horrible', it's just that you don't fit the mindset of a hardcore raiding guild.

It has absolutely zero to do with elitism.

Imagine a person applying for some highly payed job and then crying 'elitism' when he is turned down due to his lack of experience, achievements and abilities.

I don't exactly understand what you are talking about sir.

[thoruga]

I think it's perfectly normal for top guilds which compete to world 1st or even world 10th. It's no elitism, they need the best because they want to be the best. Those guilds are not just playing games they are competing.
But, if a guild is not one of those, even if they run heroic but much later compared to those, I'd find it elitist to have such requirements. Clearly you will not be world 1st, and you must have had ample time to collect normal gear that you can part with some racial abilities.

[Bllets]

I'm well aware we are the top and affliction is broken in several languages that should be banned from bible use. Though we aren't quite in the state that others believe we are completely broken (which affliction is on some fights) though the logs suggest although we are top we aren't fully broken and everyone assumes they are miles behind which they are not (unless you are shadow priest then you have my condolences). Destruction balances out but affliction is still broken on many fights I suppose.

Might want to take a look at 10man and not just 25man and see where destruction has its throne from.

It is especially fun fighting against two destruction warlocks in 10man, watching my DPS being about 9k from sims and still not even close. I do not blame locks for anything, except when they say it's somewhat balanced.

[Durantye]

Might want to take a look at 10man and not just 25man and see where destruction has its throne from.

It is especially fun fighting against two destruction warlocks in 10man, watching my DPS being about 9k from sims and still not even close. I do not blame locks for anything, except when they say it's somewhat balanced.

I haven't done 10-man in a while but I can imagine you aren't getting much if any execution off with 2 warlocks in group due to them fighting for shadowburns (I despise running with other destro warlocks for this very reason.) and that has to suck.

I think I'll avoid discussing 10man since I have little experience with it this tier.

[Bllets]

I haven't done 10-man in a while but I can imagine you aren't getting much if any execution off with 2 warlocks in group due to them fighting for shadowburns (I despise running with other destro warlocks for this very reason.) and that has to suck.

I think I'll avoid discussing 10man since I have little experience with it this tier.

Well their DPS is somewhat equal, so I guess they work it out.

But you can just look at the parses from 10man I linked earlier, it shows a somewhat neat picture of 10man really. Take into account that which we talked in the other post, but you get the idea

[Durantye]

Well their DPS is somewhat equal, so I guess they work it out.

But you can just look at the parses from 10man I linked earlier, it shows a somewhat neat picture of 10man really. Take into account that which we talked in the other post, but you get the idea

It seems odd to me that destro would perform so much better in 10man compared to 25 when taking into account skull banners which you'd think destro would scale better with more skull banners than less.

[Deleted]

So what kind of difference does race make for PvE performance?
I'd think it's only important at the very high end.

Exactly this, it's only important on a very high level. The average player won't see any change -at all- changing from say a Human Hunter to Troll Hunter. However, if you're playing with the lowest possible ms and do your rotation, managing your procs and CDs like a champ, you will notice a difference. For the player who's not playing in a cutting edge guild, I'd say just go with whatever you feel is the most fun. I play a Troll because I like hitting fast, I'm in no way a cutting edge raider I just found their racial to be entertaining because I get to hit stuff faster.

[Squirl]

Not to pick on you in particular, but I find this interesting coming from you as an example. You are in a great guild (8th US 10H). You are alliance. You are a human rogue. And you use daggers. You seem to be a great example of a guild that does not actually care about race that much. Based on Blizzard's race trait changes, everyone worried about racials right now should be horde and either troll or orc. Even as alliance, the expertise/root break from gnome, food buff from panda or at least the movement bonuses of NE or worgen are stronger than the "free pvp trinket".

@OP: some raid leaders just want to see that you are doing absolutely everything in your power to stack the odds in your favor for max output. The numbers from being the troll seem to be significant enough to use as a qualifier atm since Blizzard is nerfing trolls in the future. Many hardcore guilds are elitist, many are not. Really, its their choice who they want on their team and if it really is symbolic of their elitism, I would think you would be unlikely to fit in with their current team's mentality.

My guild is not Method or Blood Legion or Paragon.

I can tell you we've thought about going horde and decided it's way too much hassle. However, if we were horde, the majority of our raiders and I would be Troll or Orc (depending on class). Those racials are so much better than everything else that it makes a big difference (tens of thousands of DPS AND on-use, not passive). For alliance, it's basically a few thousand DPS vs the convenience of EMFH. Most of us choose EMFH.

[MerinPally]

Those that demand it? No idea. However even in my guild which wasn't even top of the server, if someone said they wanted to race change then we'd persuade them to go the best race for their role. I mean why wouldn't you?

[Henriksson]

Oh wow this thread though.

"uh muh god why would you spend money to race change for better performance, duh game is supposed to be fun murrrrr"

"let me just buy all these glorious mounts from the store hurr dat faerie dragon looks cool. oh damn that skyreaver oh mhmhm OH THERE'S PETS OOOH TAKE ALL MY MONEY. I can't believe those elitists that race change hurr game is supposed to be about fun UH MUH GHUUUUD"

[Khantor]

ok henry ok, calm down now