The game has become embarrassingly easy..

[Tinch]

You truly missed the fun times, though upto BC and certain degree in WotLK, rules didn't change much. Ofc there were OP classes in leveling, hunter being #1, warlock being quite more distant #2. But hunters were penalized by having to carry arrows with them and food for pet, while warlocks had to carry soul shards for many of important things, e.g, summoning demons and other players.

And yes you had to manage mana during leveling, sometimes using downranked spells, using wands (which had separate weapon slot). You could customize your build for efficiency or survivability (lol at people who keep saying "it was just about copy the best build", as you couldn't actually do things efficiently with raid-optimized builds outside raids unless you enjoyed "drinking after each mob"). Level 1-60 quests weren't stupid as in Cata+, all of them were quite coherent and quite a number of questlines lasted for many levels (e.g., missing diplomat). It's a shame that newer players will never see such things as fight with Onyxia in Stormwind, Elemental Invasions, Elemental Lieutenants, World Dragons and so on.

You had to do unusual things for many quests, e.g, you had to die to get one of most important quests for BRD as NPC could be interacted only in ghost form, and so on. There was much bigger synergy between classes, there were much more class exclusive buffs which were stacking with other similar buffs. Priest's Fortitude was stacking with Druid's paw and with Paladin's Blessing of Kings. There was Spirit buff from priests and stacking one from shamans + mana generation ability of shadow priests. And so on.

Now looking at what we have, game lost most of its depth, and 1-60 suffered the most. Newer players will never know what WoW was used to be. And it is sad.

And no, you couldn't completely ignore talents, like now, red level mobs were lethal, there were true elites in most of zones (not lol-elites like in Dread Waste or arcade elites on Timeless Isle), whom you couldn't beat just by "avoiding cheap 1-shot abilities" and who were often part of questlines. One of such elite quests was horde's favorite - it involved spawning very high level elite in Southshore (which was Alliance town) right at Alliance graveyard. Yes, questing didn't feel like some stupid filler with tons of popculture references, it was more like adventure, where you could find many interesting things and could actually die.

Coherent? Jesus if you class the Vanilla quests as coherent I dread to think what you would class as incoherent. Some of them were plain laughable for how stupidly they were designed.

And yes you could ignore talents, I did it all the way up to about 44 I think it was in the end. And I healed as aa priest with a shadow spec through MC too.

[Ferocity]

Coherent? Jesus if you class the Vanilla quests as coherent I dread to think what you would class as incoherent. Some of them were plain laughable for how stupidly they were designed.

I played preCata many years ago, Cata was more recent experience. I can't tell you what were 96% of new 1-60 quests (I had double Loremaster), and 4% I remember stupid ogre in searing gorge and badlands' "punch deathwing in face". Most of the quests were things in themselves, it was hard to look at them as one big picture.

Or do you mean by coherence - ability to kill few mobs in 5 steps near questgiver and call it a quest? Whole 1-60 was about conspiracy and Defias insurgence which led to Onyxia and Nefarian, all that while Scourge was ravaging in the north. What was new 1-60 about? Why they didn't show the return of Nefarian and restoration of Onyxia through new 1-60 (if they couldn't do it in 80-85)? They filled it with completely irrelevant storylines oustide maybe Badlands. But even then it was tainted by how it was delivered.

And yes you could ignore talents, I did it all the way up to about 44 I think it was in the end. And I healed as aa priest with a shadow spec through MC too.

Don't take it personally, but "there is no cure for the dumb". If you did it, then GOOD LUCK to you, but don't expect that others were playing in such a failure way and crippled their own gameplay. And then people like you start spamming "it was only hard because it was more tedious and you had to drink after each mob". Sure you had, if you ignored everything that game had to offer. And yes, even in today's raids it is possible to carry/boost people, even on hc mode. Raids had different pacing back then, and several good players could carry most of the raid.

And you brought MC as example, which was quite forgiving with exception of Geddon+. You know - you can tank MSV, except maybe Elegon, as any class too with good healers. You can heal as rogue if other people do their best to avoid damage. Can those be considered as examples of broken gameplay or it is simply because someone was carried?

[Tinch]

Don't take it personally, but "there is no cure for the dumb". If you did it, then GOOD LUCK to you, but don't expect that others were playing in such a failure way and crippled their own gameplay. And then people like you start spamming "it was only hard because it was more tedious and you had to drink after each mob". Sure you had, if you ignored everything that game had to offer. And yes, even in today's raids it is possible to carry/boost people, even on hc mode. Raids had different pacing back then, and several good players could carry most of the raid.

And you brought MC as example, which was quite forgiving with exception of Geddon+. You know - you can tank MSV, except maybe Elegon, as any class too with good healers. You can heal as rogue if other people do their best to avoid damage. Can those be considered as examples of broken gameplay or it is simply because someone was carried?

So how was vanilla hard then? If it was, surely I wouldn't have been able to level so easily playing, as I admitted, like a complete scrub?

[DTFlock]

so did your mom

/giggity

Mod Edit: Post constructively please.

[Ferocity]

So how was vanilla hard then? If it was, surely I wouldn't have been able to level so easily playing, as I admitted, like a complete scrub?

When will people stop turning the tables. Noone said it was hard. It simply wasn't godmode as is now. Do you live in some bipolar world, where only white and black exist, where it is either lambasting sound or silence all around?

Also I wait when you say "you simply had to drink after each mob, that's why it was called as hard", because you ignored all talents.

Bringing awful examples and then attempting to turn the tables doesn't change absolute fact that current leveling is far beyond broken and have become godmode and it didn't use to work like that before. And no, if leveling wasn't used to work like that before it doesn't mean it was so hard that completely clueless people couldn't eventually get to max level - just STOP. DERAILING. THREAD.

This thread isn't about how "hard" was old leveling, this thread isn't about "endgame"'s difficulty, this thread is about pathetic state of current leveling in WoW.

And sorry, if only last 5 minutes of film or last 5 pages in book worth watching/reading, it means that film/book was a complete failure. That's to apologists like "but did you kill Garrosh hc"?

[Grogo]

If you are someone who compares todays questing and todays 5 man difficulty to Vanilla's and say that they are equal? You have zero credibility and you are embarrassing yourself, so stop it.

[Theendgamelv3]

Some people say Vanilla was not harder. I don't know, I've never played it. But let's compare difficulties objectively. Take the most OP class, Hunter. In 1-60 bracket I 1-shot most of mobs, including quest bosses, with Aimed Shot. I used to pull staggering number of enemies with zero risk: for example, in Felwood I remember running around that Furbolg camp aggroing every Furbolg, and then I had to fight 15 of them or so - and it was easy, even despite playing without a pet. Now, I wonder, how many people as Hunter managed to pull 15 Furbolgs of their level in Vanilla and also survive with zero risk? How many people managed to 1-shot most mobs with one ability? How many people didn't die to mobs while leveling a single time? How many people managed to solo a dungeon of their level and die only once to the final boss, using questing gear?

This was the north area with the logs and campfires right? Cause there are tons of them out in the open.

[Tinch]

When will people stop turning the tables. Noone said it was hard. It simply wasn't godmode as is now. Do you live in some bipolar world, where only white and black exist, where it is either lambasting sound or silence all around?

Also I wait when you say "you simply had to drink after each mob, that's why it was called as hard", because you ignored all talents.

Bringing awful examples and then attempting to turn the tables doesn't change absolute fact that current leveling is far beyond broken and have become godmode and it didn't use to work like that before. And no, if leveling wasn't used to work like that before it doesn't mean it was so hard that completely clueless people couldn't eventually get to max level - just STOP. DERAILING. THREAD.

This thread isn't about how "hard" was old leveling, this thread isn't about "endgame"'s difficulty, this thread is about pathetic state of current leveling in WoW.

And sorry, if only last 5 minutes of film or last 5 pages in book worth watching/reading, it means that film/book was a complete failure. That's to apologists like "but did you kill Garrosh hc"?

I was responding to your statement that you couldn't ignore talent points in Vanilla, when you quite clearly could and still get to max level with ease.

I'd rather you didn't put words in my mouth either, I've lost count of how many times I've agreed on this thread that levelling is easier now, I don't know how much clearer I can put it.

You need to understand the meaning of words too, it is not an 'absolute fact' that levelling is broken, its merely your opinion.

[May90]

This was the north area with the logs and campfires right? Cause there are tons of them out in the open.

Yes, I think it was to the north. So, I wonder, could you in Vanilla being appropriate level Hunter for the quest there aggro 15 Furbolgs and beat them easily without a pet? I really do not know, I've never played Vanilla. Just I somehow doubt it was possible - from old Youtube videos of Vanilla and TBC times, it seems leveling indeed was much better, it doesn't seem to have been hard, but I also haven't seen many people dare to aggro more than 1-2 mobs at once. If anything, it seems similar to SWTOR difficulty: you can safely pull one typical mob, you risk a bit by pulling two, and three or more usually means death.

I was responding to your statement that you couldn't ignore talent points in Vanilla, when you quite clearly could and still get to max level with ease.

I'd rather you didn't put words in my mouth either, I've lost count of how many times I've agreed on this thread that levelling is easier now, I don't know how much clearer I can put it.

You need to understand the meaning of words too, it is not an 'absolute fact' that levelling is broken, its merely your opinion.

OK, let's not start the game "I'm gonna win this argument no matter what". How you could get it to level 60 is irrelevant. You can solo Dragon Age Origins on Nightmare naked as Arcane Warrior, but it doesn't make the game a joke in terms of difficulty, you need to work REALLY hard to do it. What matters the most is this: how does the game feel when playing conventionally, that is using all resources you've got to overcome challenges? You can always make it harder for yourself and still succeed sometimes, but it is not how the game is supposed to be played, and not everyone (definitely not me) finds fun in setting up your own challenges for yourself.

So, in context of current WoW leveling, what you need to ask is not questions "Have you won the Ironman Challenge?" or "Have you downed Garrosh HC?". What you need to ask is this: "If you level with full Heirlooms and guild XP bonus, how does the game feel?". Of course we know the answer: even naked this game is a joke, and with Heirlooms and weapons from Dungeons... So, the current balance is a joke indeed. And trying to prove that Vanilla was also very easy doesn't redeem it in any way.

[Theendgamelv3]

Yes, I think it was to the north. So, I wonder, could you in Vanilla being appropriate level Hunter for the quest there aggro 15 Furbolgs and beat them easily without a pet? I really do not know, I've never played Vanilla. Just I somehow doubt it was possible - from old Youtube videos of Vanilla and TBC times, it seems leveling indeed was much better, it doesn't seem to have been hard, but I also haven't seen many people dare to aggro more than 1-2 mobs at once. If anything, it seems similar to SWTOR difficulty: you can safely pull one typical mob, you risk a bit by pulling two, and three or more usually means death.


OK, let's not start the game "I'm gonna win this argument no matter what". How you could get it to level 60 is irrelevant. You can solo Dragon Age Origins on Nightmare naked as Arcane Warrior, but it doesn't make the game a joke in terms of difficulty, you need to work REALLY hard to do it. What matters the most is this: how does the game feel when playing conventionally, that is using all resources you've got to overcome challenges? You can always make it harder for yourself and still succeed sometimes, but it is not how the game is supposed to be played, and not everyone (definitely not me) finds fun in setting up your own challenges for yourself.

Then you missed the Frost Mage video I posted where he was pulling 4-6 mobs at a time and killing them. As for a hunter being able to do it back then, no and this due to tools and not damage. If you gave Vanilla hunters the same tool set, yes, yes they could since this is about kiting mobs around til they die. Hunters have pulled world bosses to cities, soloing them, etc back then. Until DKs they WERE the extreme soloing class. Again is it that Hunters are OP or is level so easy? It is easier to depower hunters than it is to fix the leveling system. Like I said I am leveling a Ret Pally and I almost died at level 4. Haven't been that close since, but I do have to be a little aware. I certainly don't feel like a god. God mode to me implies that I one shot everything and I go pull 5 plus mobs, kill them all and my health didn't go down past 90% while doing anything I want like just auto attacking. I haven't even come close to doing that as a ret pally.

As for you pulling 15 mobs and killing them all, I went there under leveled and I still didn't pull 15 mobs (I wasn't trying to kill them), why, because mobs pathed back. I could probably pull around 10-11, but not anymore than that. Being under leveled gave the best chance for a bigger pull. What I think you're doing is chain pulling mobs and at the end, you in total killed 15. You probably had 7-8 mobs attacking at a time while killing 1-2 off while pulling more. The tools for hunters even without aim shot allow for this to happen. NOW if mobs didn't path back could you actually kill 15, yea I think so. It is all about keep mobs off and hunters excel keeping their distance.

Anyone arguing god mode for 85-90, no, just no. I died a few times on other classes and others have posted they have died leveling in MoP. This isn't saying leveling in MoP is hard, but god mode....no. Just because you die doesn't make anything hard. Also just because you excel at something, doesn't make it easy in general. Just because Michael Jordan made basketball look easy doesn't mean it is easy. Again not saying leveling is hard, but you need to know how a audience in general feels about leveling and how hard it is.

[ringpriest]

Game was never hard, things took longer, and many of them were less forgiving, and clunkier. Game lacked the tools and information it does today, and lacked the informed and skilled player base it has today. in the beginning, you rarely had anyone who knew what they were doing, so everything had to be CC'd, and taken in small bites. As the game progressed, crap system that only added confusion or needless timesinks were removed. While this did simplify the game in some ways, at the same time the games community was maturing (figuratively) and improving in skill (objectively). Where the game currently stands, most people who haven't played wow have played a game based on the systems it uses, the game has more addons, and in general the community is years ahead in terms of it basic knowledge of how to deal with the challenges the game presents.

Have you looked into LFR or random BGs in the last year?

[Tinch]

OK, let's not start the game "I'm gonna win this argument no matter what". How you could get it to level 60 is irrelevant. You can solo Dragon Age Origins on Nightmare naked as Arcane Warrior, but it doesn't make the game a joke in terms of difficulty, you need to work REALLY hard to do it. What matters the most is this: how does the game feel when playing conventionally, that is using all resources you've got to overcome challenges? You can always make it harder for yourself and still succeed sometimes, but it is not how the game is supposed to be played, and not everyone (definitely not me) finds fun in setting up your own challenges for yourself.

Thats the point I'm trying to make, it WASN'T difficult to level without spending talent points in Vanilla. I didn't do this intentionally, I was just new to the game and genre and didn't know any better.

There wasn't a single area where I got stuck or had to out level the content to finish it. Of course I probably died a bit more than usual, but the fact I was able to level through and not have to think 'hang on, I'm doing something wrong here' tells you a lot about Vanilla's difficulty.

This is not to try and justify current leveling by the way, it was just a discussion that started way back in this thread when some people were arguing Vanilla leveling was challenging, or that a return to that difficulty would suddenly make leveling fun.

So, in context of current WoW leveling, what you need to ask is not questions "Have you won the Ironman Challenge?" or "Have you downed Garrosh HC?". What you need to ask is this: "If you level with full Heirlooms and guild XP bonus, how does the game feel?". Of course we know the answer: even naked this game is a joke, and with Heirlooms and weapons from Dungeons... So, the current balance is a joke indeed. And trying to prove that Vanilla was also very easy doesn't redeem it in any way.

So you don't want to consider the games difficulty with the poorest gear, but you're happy to judge it by an almost BiS character? Hardly seems fair does it. The game is not a joke if you play naked, lets not over-exaggerate.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Thats the point I'm trying to make, it WASN'T difficult to level without spending talent points in Vanilla. I didn't do this intentionally, I was just new to the game and genre and didn't know any better.

There wasn't a single area where I got stuck or had to out level the content to finish it. Of course I probably died a bit more than usual, but the fact I was able to level through and not have to think 'hang on, I'm doing something wrong here' tells you a lot about Vanilla's difficulty.

This is not to try and justify current leveling by the way, it was just a discussion that started way back in this thread when some people were arguing Vanilla leveling was challenging, or that a return to that difficulty would suddenly make leveling fun.

It doesn't actually tell you much about Vanilla's difficulty; it probably tells you a lot more about the state of Vanilla talents. After all, what did talents give you back then? As a mage, I could make my Arcane Explosion instant cast. Handy, but I wasn't using it much during levelling. Or I could spec into frost and get some snares and slows (the fact I did tells you how difficult Vanilla felt to me!).

Was there anything in there you would really miss? Anything that would dramatically impact difficulty? Not really.

That was why you could level without talents and not be impacted.

[Theendgamelv3]

Have you looked into LFR or random BGs in the last year?

In the context of leveling and dungeons he is right. You have the quest log that helps you and the dungeon journal. Also you don't know why every group wipes in LFR. I have seen lots of people argue that people are AFK or just auto attacking. If that is the case, that isn't a lack of being informed, that is just being lazy and carried. Can't really touch on random bgs since I don't really pvp.

[Deleted]

One of many stupid things that Blizzard have done is that they cut the dungeons, like Wailing Caverns, Blackrock Depths, Stratholme and Sunken Temple.

[Theendgamelv3]

One of many stupid things that Blizzard have done is that they cut the dungeons, like Wailing Caverns, Blackrock Depths, Stratholme and Sunken Temple.

They didn't cut BRD and Stratholme at least from what I can remember. You can still do a full run on those if you really wanted to. For the others, a option to do the older versions would be nice (although I bet very few people would actually want to do them).

[Ferocity]

It doesn't actually tell you much about Vanilla's difficulty; it probably tells you a lot more about the state of Vanilla talents. After all, what did talents give you back then? As a mage, I could make my Arcane Explosion instant cast. Handy, but I wasn't using it much during levelling. Or I could spec into frost and get some snares and slows (the fact I did tells you how difficult Vanilla felt to me!).

Was there anything in there you would really miss? Anything that would dramatically impact difficulty? Not really.

That was why you could level without talents and not be impacted.

It is easy to talk about it when preCata content is available only illegally. But was it available legally, I would call on your words, and we'd compare efficiency of your 0-talented dps/healer/tank in HP/MP/HPs/tps/mp5/etc. with someone who used some build.

Did you try to tank Stratholme speed run without talents? Did you try to heal Scholo without talents? I am speaking about old instances, but after their nerfs.

Stop making completely groundless statements. And yes, many people miss it. Miss choosing between talents which impact combat capabilities and talents like "choose between stun, stun and stun", talents like "Chance to proc [1% dps] for 5 sec from your proc" crap, which barely impacts anything, with very few exceptions.

Oh and of course you wasn't using Arcane Explosion because you probably didn't have friend to kill stuff with whom? As healer I was accompanying my friend on his mage in TBC, I was healing him while he was spamming Arcane Explosion through tons of mobs. Your words are basically same as "Righteous Fury is stupid ability because you don't use it during leveling" - of course, if you had noone to tank mobs for whom.

And talents gave customization. Unless you tunnel-visioned everything according to some raiding guide.

And about difficulty I will quote myself again:

This thread isn't about how "hard" was old leveling, this thread isn't about "endgame"'s difficulty, this thread is about pathetic state of current leveling in WoW.

Also tell me your stories about facerolling mobs which were 5 levels higher than you in Clsasic WoW, using non-hunter chars. Just like I did in MoP, trying to enjoy leveling again before I quitted, on my non-Heirloom geared alt (and I was easily killing mobs up to 10 levels higher than me). Do you really completely fail to see the unacceptable state of current leveling? And I am not even speaking about dungeons during leveling, you know - 5-men which you can solo (duo if very badly geared) at their relevant level.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't cut BRD and Stratholme at least from what I can remember. You can still do a full run on those if you really wanted to. For the others, a option to do the older versions would be nice (although I bet very few people would actually want to do them).

BRD stripped of many interesting quests, including key quest. Stratholme is divided into two parts hard way now, living part became filled with undead. You can do them both only as 2 separate instances with running through EPL. Though I guess he mistyped and meant Scholo - oh well, this instance is butchered to oblivion...