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  1. #21
    Recently I transitioned from a 25 to a 10 (since we're down to pretty much one raid night main clears) as an alt raid and I have some words of wisdom.

    Don't be demoralized. Its not so much that things are really more difficult mechanic wise, its simply that you need to pay more attention to them.

    Prime example is sha of pride. on 25 the rifts are usually a mess. On 10 we hit a small wall, until it was brought up and grinded into people to always be looking to grab a rift when they can. While this was harped on 25 man, its easy to miss if a few people scumbag, and they'll slowly pileup. On 10 if 2 people scumbag it can be excrutiatingly messy. Malkorok is kinda the same, your ranged will be swimming in orbs, and I was often moving everytime a wave of orbs went out.

    Its not that theres less mechanics, or that the mechanics themselves are harder, its that the ones that focus in on people will do so with much higher frequency. 25 man has some tighter timers, but 10 man has tighter mechanic focus (this isn't to say 25s can ignore them, but that normally half the raid is dragging the other half).


    We were facing the same woe as you are, albeit with alts. After killing a fight we've generally one shot it, its mostly about getting your players to be more intimate with mechanics.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    What's crazy, and it must be a 25M mindset or something-- is we are finding 10M to be magnitudes harder than 25M.

    We were the ones carrying the others, too. We have to actually communicate and do fights right. Which is tough because we did 11/14H on 25M without really much strategy at all.

    We used to be able to clear the first 9 or 10 in one night. Last night we killed 4. I wonder if we're just trying to do 25M strats on 10M and it's making our lives too difficult.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tVAY6dqg7MchC3jb

    We're going to get back into 25s soon I think, this is a psychological hit.
    10m is much harder this tier. We went up to 25 last week, carried 5-7 socials / alts on every fight and cleared the first 8 in only a few total wipes. We were all shocked at how much easier 25m was.
    Last edited by vadya; 2014-03-06 at 07:47 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by vadya View Post
    10m is much harder this expansion.
    Fixed that for you.

    Infracted; Post constructively.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2014-03-07 at 06:12 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    You did? It seems to me like you merely wanted to pat yourself on the back by posting something that's debatable at best, bs at worst.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    You did? It seems to me like you merely wanted to pat yourself on the back by posting something that's debatable at best, bs at worst.
    Quote Originally Posted by the WoW Devs
    In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.
    Doesn't seem like there is any room for debate there, as the OP and others in this thread with firsthand experience have noted.

  6. #26
    You want to use your Disc Priest and Druid for healing basically everything. Disc priest are GOD MODE on 10man. You can SS the entire raid easily and cheese burst dmg. Resto shams are A LOT weaker 10man than they are 25man. There just isnt enough people standing close enough together to make use of chain heal / healing rain. So take druid over Shaman. The only fight I would use a 3rd healer is Juggernaut/Thok and even Juggernaut with your gear you could 2 heal. The biggest difference with 25man is that on certain fights you need to coördinate raid cds better, their impact is a lot bigger.

    As for tactics, mechanically you need EVERYONE to contribute to the fight. You can't have half the raid just be there for numbers. As stated Rifts on Sha are a good example, but so are the add waves on nazgrim. Overall though you shouldn't have much trouble. The only fight I feel you'll have to adjust is Siegecrafter, finding a good belt team in 10m isnt easy. Allthough with your gear your hunter might be able to solo it completely.

    As a reference, my guild is in average 574-575 gear and we clear 12/14 hc in 1 night.
    Last edited by rohendar; 2014-03-06 at 10:08 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Doesn't seem like there is any room for debate there, as the OP and others in this thread with firsthand experience have noted.
    I'm pretty sure that "wow devs" part was about LFR. As for people experiences - "tier" versus "expansion"... we are discussing SoO here, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by rohendar View Post
    As for tactics, mechanically you need EVERYONE to contribute to the fight. You can't have half the raid just be there for numbers. As stated Rifts on Sha are a good example, but so are the add waves on nazgrim. Overall though you shouldn't have much trouble. The only fight I feel you'll have to adjust is Siegecrafter, finding a good belt team in 10m isnt easy. Allthough with your gear your hunter might be able to solo it completely.
    I dunno, I found Nazgrim adds to be completely trivial in 10 man, they'd melt nearly instantly to focused fire. Same with rifts - yeah, there's more running around, but you can pretty much stack in one area instead of covering all four prisons. Then again, godmode disc trivialize Swelling Pride completely, what with double shell on everyone with no issues, so eh, might be that.

    In general, I'd say it's a matter of practice for the OP. 10 mans have their own problems and challenges, but can also "break" certain dps checks by single tanking. Tank + healer damage is way more important and taking advantage of them can make certain fights a lot easier and shorter.

  8. #28
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    Having only one tank really, really hurts some group comps in each of the intermission/heart phases. We found that single-tanking improved our phase 1 DPS (useless,) but we lost ground in the intermission. Our BrM off-tank routinely does ~12-15M damage to Embodied Doubts, 3-4x as much damage as some of our DoT based AoE DPS.

    The more important thing in 10-man is having every tank and healer spec available. We were able to single-tank Council of Elders with guardian druid, Megaera with a prot paladin, etc. Having two absorb healers is ideal in 10-man (disc and holy paladin,) but on Garrosh you'd rather have two DPS healers (disc and windwalker.)
    "Wrong. Deterrence deflects 100% of Iron Prison (Not tomb) dmg." -Jaydenkor, 2014


  9. #29

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    You did? It seems to me like you merely wanted to pat yourself on the back by posting something that's debatable at best, bs at worst.
    I kept my comment short because while this thread was already headed to another 10vs25 debate, I didn't really want to add a diatribe to it. But since you want to make it personal, we can go down that path.

    Akraen is a fantastic player and the quality of his guild is pretty good, too. They massively over-gear every bit of SoO 10H content and yet they got punched in the face because they were expecting "easy mode" to be, well, easy. Because people like you have been telling them it's the easy format for the last two expansions. I've been doing mainly 10-man content since wrath, and since the equalization in T11, it's been the harder format, overall. T16 is actually among the easier 10-man tiers, with only DS and possibly FL ranking easier on my list. T11 was absolutely brutal on 10 while being vastly easier on 25, and yet it's the tier everyone points to as breaking 25-man guilds. T12 was perhaps more difficult for 25-mans, but not vastly so. T13 was really pretty easy for both and not worth much discussion, but I find it hard to agree with anyone who would claim it significantly easier for 10. T14 had major roadblocks for 10 man that were easy sailing for 25 and the only part of 25 that might have been harder was Sha. T15 was closer, but still heavily tilted in that direction and this was exacerbated by thunderforged gear and the buff to 25-man healing CDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    I'm pretty sure that "wow devs" part was about LFR. As for people experiences - "tier" versus "expansion"... we are discussing SoO here, right?.
    Since the main focus of the thread is a good 25-man guild with good, over-geared players face-planting on SoO10H, that's obviously the primary focus. Blizzard didn't suddenly change 10-man tuning in SoO, and if anything, their laser-focus on linear difficulty increases has made this one of the better tiers for 10s to compete against 25s.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    I dunno, I found Nazgrim adds to be completely trivial in 10 man, they'd melt nearly instantly to focused fire. Same with rifts - yeah, there's more running around, but you can pretty much stack in one area instead of covering all four prisons. Then again, godmode disc trivialize Swelling Pride completely, what with double shell on everyone with no issues, so eh, might be that..
    I find the ability to drown everything in raid CDs in 25-man trivializes just about everything, with swelling pride being the least of these. It must be really hard to handle Nazgrim's adds with three times as many DPS stuns and interrupts. Or the ability to have a third tank do nothing but deal with them. For 10 and 25 to be equal difficulty on fights like Galakras or Nazgrim, 25-man would have to have at least twice as many adds, or adds that cast their dangerous abilities three times as often. I laugh myself silly every time I see 25 people fail to control the same number of bonecrushers and arcweavers we have in 10-man.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    In general, I'd say it's a matter of practice for the OP. 10 mans have their own problems and challenges, but can also "break" certain dps checks by single tanking. Tank + healer damage is way more important and taking advantage of them can make certain fights a lot easier and shorter.
    It's a matter of practice for the OP because he's a very good player (probably quite a bit better than me), but that's not true for the majority of keyboard-droolers who get carried through 25-man. And are you serious? 25-man doesn't give a crap about healer DPS because they can just swap another healer out for a damage dealer. And 10-mans who solo tank progression fights (like Garrosh) do so because it's absolutely necessary to beat the overturned DPS requirements (or maybe you think Paragon solo-healed because it was just so easy). How is that an advantage for 10-man, again?
    Last edited by Adhemar; 2014-03-06 at 10:34 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    We're our own worst enemy, we want to just get back to where we were :P
    Understandable. There are some damage-pattern differences between 10/25 as well on some fights, so from a healing POV I'll mention something about Galakras pretty quick (since he was your full stop in your last log).

    Galakras on 10 can either be 2 or 3 healed, though for extra DPS 2 is easily doable. The majority of the damage in Phase 1 will come from built-up Drakefire when the first tower opens. You can either send your group up without a healer, or you can send 1 healer to the top with an excellent healer on the bottom (or if you're 3 healing, send 1 healer up, leave 2 down). Save your CD's for when the first Demo comes out. We send 3 DPS with a tank up to both towers.

    You'll get another damage burst when the Thranok guy appears, but it isn't as bad. Other than that, the rest of the damage comes at the end of the fight. Both a 2 line and 1 line strategy are possible though for simplicity I'll recommend 1 group to soak out the orbs.

    In general Galakras goes a lot like his 25 man version, but healers (esp. if 2 healing) just have to be a bit more attentive during damage phases (since you are effectively underhealing compared to 25), and you want to have your numbers worked out on who goes to the towers and who stays down.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    Since the main focus of the thread is a good 25-man guild with good, over-geared players face-planting on SoO10H.
    I'm pretty sure the main focus of Akraen's thread was on building a 10 man comp from a pool of 12-13 players, and questions for constructive tips on how 10 man encounters might differ from 25 man strategy (i.e. execution, tanking, healing).
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-03-06 at 11:13 PM.

  12. #32
    As a 10-man raider in siege with a comparably geared group I think I can offer some insight.

    With your gear any dPS comp should do fine, anyone above 575 or 576 is more than capable of being competitive on any boss. As far as healing goes, the only bosses that we 3-healed during progression were Thok, Juggernaut, Shamans and Klaxxi. Everything else is easily 2 healable and now that we are farming we are also 2-healing those bosses so it's totally doable if you want to up your raids DPS. As has been stated above, disc is utter godmode for 10-man and our other two healers always complain when we also have our disc in because "there's nothing to even heal" due to OP shields, so definitely include your disc priest in your raid group if you're having healing issues. For tanking, we 2-tanked everything with a paladin and a feral druid except for thok where we used 2 paladins and shamans where we use 3 tanks (paladin+feral+warrior or monk). We found it was just unnecessary stress to 1-tank anything and the DPS increase was not really needed.

    Another thing that is often overlooked in 10 vs 25 is that melee DPS can be a real burden on 10-man groups. malkorok is a good example because you need to have enough ranged DPS and healers to cover the entire platform for implosions and even bringing one melee means you have to leave a zone open and shared by two people. If at all possible I would recommend limiting the number of melee DPS in your group to 1 for progress. We have killed all the bosses with at least 3 melee DPS now that we are farming so it is totally possible to do it with a heavy melee setup but bringing more ranged will make your life a whole lot easier.

    Hope this helps and if you need any tactics for specific fights I'd be happy to share ours

    Good luck in mythic and with your 10-man fun in Siege!

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Understandable. There are some damage-pattern differences between 10/25 as well on some fights, so from a healing POV I'll mention something about Galakras pretty quick (since he was your full stop in your last log).

    Galakras on 10 can either be 2 or 3 healed, though for extra DPS 2 is easily doable. The majority of the damage in Phase 1 will come from built-up Drakefire when the first tower opens. You can either send your group up without a healer, or you can send 1 healer to the top with an excellent healer on the bottom (or if you're 3 healing, send 1 healer up, leave 2 down). Save your CD's for when the first Demo comes out. We send 3 DPS with a tank up to both towers.

    You'll get another damage burst when the Thranok guy appears, but it isn't as bad. Other than that, the rest of the damage comes at the end of the fight. Both a 2 line and 1 line strategy are possible though for simplicity I'll recommend 1 group to soak out the orbs.

    In general Galakras goes a lot like his 25 man version, but healers (esp. if 2 healing) just have to be a bit more attentive during damage phases (since you are effectively underhealing compared to 25), and you want to have your numbers worked out on who goes to the towers and who stays down.
    Way to over-complicate the second easiest fight in SoO 10H. Dear God, do NOT two-heal Galakras. With people over 575 item level. You should be able to meet the very minor DPS checks with four healers and there's zero benefit to two-healing.

    Control the bonecrushers, kill the tower grunts, send 1 healer, 1 tank and 2 DPS up the tower (melee are good, as it leaves ranged to kill the other tower grunts and they should have the door to tower two open shortly after you finish tower one). Two line strategy is entirely futile and extra complication. Have 3 people stand to the side for the first two flame balls and then move in with the group, have everyone else move out to reset stacks when they get to 3 and have everyone run behind the raid to drop their nasty fireball. Make sure everyone is together in AoE healing range and stagger every raid cooldown you have starting around the third fireball.

    We killed heroic Galakras in two attempts around 558 average item level while three healing (we were a little confused about how the grunts actually worked on the first pull). Two-healing is an unnecessary risk with no payoff.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    I'm pretty sure the main focus of Akraen's thread was on building a 10 man comp from a pool of 12-13 players, and questions for constructive tips on how 10 man encounters might differ from 25 man strategy (i.e. execution, tanking, healing).
    I'm pretty sure that was the intended focus of his initial post, yes, but you seem to be confusing the original post with the rest of the thread. Your snide comment about 10 man difficulty was the first move in that direction, by the way.

  14. #34
    We 2 heal all fights (recommend 3 on juggernaut though). We 3 healed juggernaut and thok on progress, same raid cd's and more dps didnt make any real difference on thok. Normally you 2 heal upstairs on shaman with 2 tanks, but we never found the need for it, a resto shaman can quite easily heal ut.
    We use 1 tank on immersius, malkorok (makes it slightly easier to 2 tank malkorok imo) and thok.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Oricc View Post
    As far as healing goes, the only bosses that we 3-healed during progression were Thok, Juggernaut, Shamans and Klaxxi.
    Two healing Immerseus is stupid and gets you nothing but a slower kill. Protectors is either way. Norushen could be tight enough on enrage to push you to two healers at low gear, but absolutely no advantage to a 570+ group. Two healing Galakras is also stupid (downtime between add waves is the only possible benefit). Two healing Malkorok also provides little benefit for the lost healing coverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oricc View Post
    We found it was just unnecessary stress to 1-tank anything and the DPS increase was not really needed.
    Yep. The only fight it was ever actually useful for was Garrosh, and since that's been nerfed there's really no reason to solo tank anything in SoO 10H unless you're goofing around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oricc View Post
    Another thing that is often overlooked in 10 vs 25 is that melee DPS can be a real burden on 10-man groups. malkorok is a good example because you need to have enough ranged DPS and healers to cover the entire platform for implosions and even bringing one melee means you have to leave a zone open and shared by two people. If at all possible I would recommend limiting the number of melee DPS in your group to 1 for progress. We have killed all the bosses with at least 3 melee DPS now that we are farming so it is totally possible to do it with a heavy melee setup but bringing more ranged will make your life a whole lot easier.
    One player can cover a quarter of Malkorok's room, so you need a total of four ranged and healers, not exactly a high bar. This tier is fairly generous to melee and the biggest problem I've seen from melee heavy comps is downtime switching to adds on Nazgrim. I'd still recommend they use most of their range, since they have three ridiculously well geared caster and mages and warlocks dominate DPS in this tier.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Whoa whoa which can be solo tanked?

    Because both our tanks are technically DPSers, and I'd love to free up that guardian/moonkin to DPS.
    Effectively? Immerseus, Sha of Pride (zerg tactic), Juggernaut (if dps takes mines) and Thok. The only ones I recommend really are Thok and Immerseus.

    Sha of Pride is really fun to do zerg though. 8 dps, 1 tank, 1 healer, everyone stacks up (resto shamans or druids are recommended) behind the boss, you'll get 100 pride shortly after his first Swelling Pride, pop BL, nuke him down to 30%, repeat the process. He only does 2 Swelling Pride in the whole fight with this tactic and it's done in a very, very short time. Very fun to do, it's a lot shorter + the tank gets very high ranks from all the sha reflection adds he's killing. I think average dps needed is ~410k (tank dps included) in 119 seconds. It's not hard at all to beat at 570+ considering the 50% (or 100%?) buff you get.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Tanks: Blood DK @ 573; Guardian Druid @ 577

    Healers: Disc @ 581; Resto Druid @ 575; Resto Shaman @ 578

    DPS:
    Mage @ 579
    Mage @ 576
    Warlock @ 578
    Hunter @ 578
    Fury Warr @ 572
    S.Priest @ 567
    Rogue @ 571
    Windwalker @ 565


    --
    I've been trying to figure out raid comps for each fight and I've been unsure of a few things:

    1) Does just one shadow priest off-healing and a fury warrior banner allow us to 2-heal every fight?
    2) Does our gear allow us to 1-heal anything?
    3) Which of those 8 DPS should be in for each fight? Does it matter much with our gear?
    4) Which 2 healers of the 3 should be in? I'm assuming Resto Shaman always for CDs
    1. Yes and no. You can work around 2-healing every fight, but I'd recommend going with 3 healers on Shamans and Juggernaut to start with. I'd recommend 2-healing Thok though since you have a few raid CDs that are helpful. You should be able to get Thok to 50% in the first phase, push the kiting phase fast, get the bat phase, push it fast, kill bats, get the yeti phase and kill him in that phase. Shamans is easily 2-healed too if your group is communicating CDs well.

    2. Kinda... You can 1-heal Shamans if the Blood DK is able to solo Kardris.

    3. Having well geared dps makes every fight so much easier. If dps didn't matter, I'd bench the mages. Look at the dps the mages are contributing with, compare it to the raid CDs of the other members, then decide for yourself. You're one of the mages though, so that may not be useful to you, but it's mostly a dps vs utility question here. Every little dps helps though. Having 100k extra is noticible difference in 10man.

    4. If equally skilled, I'd get the Disc and Druid. It's a fantastic match-up for 10man.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    Two healing Immerseus is stupid and gets you nothing but a slower kill. Protectors is either way. Norushen could be tight enough on enrage to push you to two healers at low gear, but absolutely no advantage to a 570+ group. Two healing Galakras is also stupid (downtime between add waves is the only possible benefit). Two healing Malkorok also provides little benefit for the lost healing coverage.
    I'd agree with you about Malkorok Galakras and Immerseus, 3-healing actually makes immerseus faster, just havn't thought about those bosses in so long. There's really no reason to go 2 heal on these fights except for a faster kill which is great while farming but during progress I totally understand going 3 healers for all of these.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Oricc View Post
    I'd agree with you about Malkorok Galakras and Immerseus, 3-healing actually makes immerseus faster, just havn't thought about those bosses in so long. There's really no reason to go 2 heal on these fights except for a faster kill which is great while farming but during progress I totally understand going 3 healers for all of these.
    Yeah, I keep hearing about people two-healing Galakras and I just don't understand why, other than to make your healers feel better about themselves. We two-healed a few attempts when we had some low DPS replacements instead of core people and it just felt like begging for bad drakefire RNG. If you overgear it and your healers are the high-maintenance easily-bored type, I guess it's an option.

    Malkorok could conceivably be pushed one bloodrage phase earlier by dropping a healer, if you have problems with it, but bloodrage is the easy part of the fight, IMO. We actually moved to three-healing Norushen after progressing with 2 to meet enrage, because gear easily overcame the timer and it's generally better for my group to 3-heal and 1-shot than risk wipes to "oops" moments with adequate heals to compensate.

  19. #39
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    You can easily 2 heal Galakras every time if you use the "everyone up tower #1" strat - just send up 1 tank, 1 healer and all DPS and rofflestomp the first tower so you get the drakes down ASAP.

    3 healing Galakras is just overkill.

  20. #40
    You should be able to go 14/14 H pretty much any way you make the raid. Like another said, 3 healers are useful on Thok and Iron Jugg (you probably won't need it for Shamans, but it's helpful).

    10 man raids have a lot more personal responsibility. Damage comes in bigger spikes because there's less going on to smooth it out. Dps is more rng. It's just a different feel. Having raided both 10 and 25 heroic, I can say 100% that 10 is harder on *most* fights.

    But yeah, at your gear levels you should roll straight up to 4th wing.

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