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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oricc View Post
    There's really no reason to go 2 heal on these fights except for a faster kill which is great while farming but during progress I totally understand going 3 healers for all of these.
    One reason groups will prefer to 2 heal is simple, which is that you avoid a lot of damage by killing things faster. So you're both getting less raid damage and faster kills, whereas more healers just allows you to react to more raid damage(*).

    Immerseus is one of the only fights that I think becomes less of a chore (I wouldn't call it "hard" over a "chore") since more healers actually allows more area coverage for puddles later on = faster killing. It's one I'd almost unequivocally recommend 3 healing even if stupidly overgeared.

    I think sometimes the decision simply comes down to: 1) Are our healers comfortable under-healing? (If your healers are bad, obviously you want to 3 heal as much as possible), and things like 2) Is our healer comp good for this fight? (Disc Druid, for that matter, is strong), and even might just go to 3) Do we have mainspec healers we want to bring in for loot on an over-geared farm boss? Basically in many cases, it's really a raid leader's call for the "possible 2, possible 3" ones.

    (*) Yes, I understand things die quick if you "massively overgear" a fight. But also 2 healing is not very difficult on most fights if you "massively overgear" it either.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-03-07 at 10:05 AM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by vadya View Post
    You can easily 2 heal Galakras every time if you use the "everyone up tower #1" strat - just send up 1 tank, 1 healer and all DPS and rofflestomp the first tower so you get the drakes down ASAP.

    3 healing Galakras is just overkill.
    Agreed. Sending only a few dps up the first tower the way some people do it is just making things much harder for yourself. The main reason the Drakefire is an issue is if you take too long in the 1st tower. The tower should really be cleared before the 2nd miniboss even spawns, and that way the drakes never do that much damage.

    For Siege 2 healers works well for most bosses, but you may want to 3-heal Juggernaut and Thok is almost certainly easier with 3. 2 melee is fine for most bosses, but some bosses will be harder if you run 3. For example if you do Malkorok with 3 melee, you may need to have a melee take some of ranged voidzones unless your raiders are really good at taking them.

    You'll want to make sure that you have all buffs, and your hunter should be very useful for that. The main ones you may have problems with are:

    Melee attack speed: Rogue, Hunter
    Mastery: Shaman, Hunter
    Spell Haste: S-Priest, Hunter
    Physical Vulnerability: Fury, Hunter

    On Shamans and Spoils the split groups won't share buffs, so just prioritize the most important ones as you won't get everything.
    Last edited by paraalso; 2014-03-07 at 10:22 AM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    Yeah, I keep hearing about people two-healing Galakras and I just don't understand why, other than to make your healers feel better about themselves. We two-healed a few attempts when we had some low DPS replacements instead of core people and it just felt like begging for bad drakefire RNG. If you overgear it and your healers are the high-maintenance easily-bored type, I guess it's an option.

    Malkorok could conceivably be pushed one bloodrage phase earlier by dropping a healer, if you have problems with it, but bloodrage is the easy part of the fight, IMO. We actually moved to three-healing Norushen after progressing with 2 to meet enrage, because gear easily overcame the timer and it's generally better for my group to 3-heal and 1-shot than risk wipes to "oops" moments with adequate heals to compensate.
    Our guild 2 heals Galakras but we don't send a healer up the tower. With our prot pally going up the tower he can just cd through the towers and using Eternal Flame is able to top anyone off up there who needs it.
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  4. #44
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    People two-healed Galakras because that's basically what you needed when everyone was around 550-555 ilvl the second week of patch 5.4. As you said, drakefire was absolutely retarded on 10-man, and we had some wipes because people got hit back-to-back in quick succession. However, DPS was also at a premium so you had to pick between two hardships. Now that everyone is 575+ ilvl, it doesn't matter either way.
    Last edited by kidsafe; 2014-03-07 at 12:06 PM.
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  5. #45
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    Melee attack speed: Rogue, Hunter
    Mastery: Shaman, Hunter
    Spell Haste: S-Priest, Hunter
    Physical Vulnerability: Fury, Hunter
    Couple of things to note on that, some buffs are more important than others. Melee attack speed only increases auto-attacks (and only on melee) so I'd actually say that is a relatively unimportant buff. On the flip side, Mastery and Spell Haste are both very good buffs.

    For a fight like spoils, you can try to put your melee-buffers along with melee together, while making sure your casters and the resto druid are getting spell haste (disc does not need spell haste nearly as much as resto druid).

    For dark shaman buffs should not be why you are sending X player to Y boss.

  6. #46
    Couple of things to note on that, some buffs are more important than others. Melee attack speed only increases auto-attacks (and only on melee) so I'd actually say that is a relatively unimportant buff. On the flip side, Mastery and Spell Haste are both very good buffs.
    The melee attack speed buff does increase ranged haste (hyena buff etc) though.
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  7. #47
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    The buff is to melee/ranged haste and it's absolutely huge for all physical DPS, of which there are typically a minimum of two and usually 3-5 in a typical 10-man. It does not only affect auto-attacks. It affects cobra/steady shot, barrage, resource regeneration, etc. I'm not saying its more crucial than spell haste, but what you are giving out false info. For example, on my paper doll, I go from 29.92% ranged haste to 42.91% ranged haste if I have my serpent out. If you have to ditch one of the listed buffs, the one of least importance is 4% physical vulnerability.
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  8. #48
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    The buff is to melee/ranged haste and it's absolutely huge for all physical DPS, of which there are typically a minimum of two and usually 3-5 in a typical 10-man. It does not only affect auto-attacks. It affects cobra/steady shot, barrage, resource regeneration, etc. I'm not saying its more crucial than spell haste, but what you are giving out false info. For example, on my paper doll, I go from 29.92% ranged haste to 42.91% ranged haste if I have my serpent out. If you have to ditch one of the listed buffs, the one of least importance is 4% physical vulnerability.
    Ah, I stand corrected for Hunters.

    For melee (basically non-hunters), though, it does only give attack speed and not haste - for instance, it does not contribute sanctity of battle nor does it increase rune regeneration.

    Even on melee it's not "nothing," esp. for some classes (warrior, I believe) attack speed is still nice as is any class that has good auto-attack contribution, but I can't see it being on the same level as spell haste.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-03-07 at 01:50 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    The buff is to melee/ranged haste and it's absolutely huge for all physical DPS, of which there are typically a minimum of two and usually 3-5 in a typical 10-man. It does not only affect auto-attacks. It affects cobra/steady shot, barrage, resource regeneration, etc. I'm not saying its more crucial than spell haste, but what you are giving out false info. For example, on my paper doll, I go from 29.92% ranged haste to 42.91% ranged haste if I have my serpent out. If you have to ditch one of the listed buffs, the one of least importance is 4% physical vulnerability.
    No, the buff is to melee attack speed and ranged haste. It does not, for example, scale with my Sanctity of Battle passive, which works with melee haste. It does, however, decrease the time between my auto-attacks. It increases resource generation for classes which generate resources with melee swings, such as warriors in battle stance, but only because they hit faster. It is a decent buff for those classes with a high percentage of auto-attack damage, or a high amount of damage that procs on melee swing (rogue poisons).

    The 4% physical vulnerability debuff is applied by classes that need it.
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  10. #50
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    No, the buff is to melee attack speed and ranged haste.
    Regardless in 6.0 I'm just glad they are (IIRC) finally nuking the distinction between "attack speed" and "haste." It's about damn time.

    [edit] It also doesn't help that currently the character screen is a liar when it comes to that distinction, it will tell you that you have "43% melee haste" when really you just have 30% melee haste and 43% attack speed.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Regardless in 6.0 I'm just glad they are (hopefully, I believe) finally nuking the distinction between "attack speed" and "haste." It's about damn time.
    Not to mention how confusing it is, as the melee attack speed buff appears to increase your haste in the character screen because the number labelled as "Haste" changes when the buff is applied. If you have 50% melee haste (which comes from 21250 haste rating), applying the "melee haste" buff increases the "haste" value on the character pane to 65%, even though the actual amount of "haste" you have stays the same.
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  12. #52
    OP...based on what you've stated so far the best advice I can give u is don't try to 2 heal so much. Considering the ilvl of your dps enrage shouldn't be of any concern at all and 3 heal is much safer than 2. An unnecessary death means nothing in 25 but its easily a wipe in 10 man. So why not 3 heal if dps isn't a concern? Immerseus, Protectors, Norushen, Galkaras, Iron Jugg, Shaman, Malkorok, Thok (even 4 heal if necessary) are all much safer with 3 healers instead of 2. The rest you actually get benefit from using only 2 but for half the instance its an unnecessary risk. Especially since you've stated you've been having trouble so far.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Whoa whoa which can be solo tanked?

    Because both our tanks are technically DPSers, and I'd love to free up that guardian/moonkin to DPS.
    Sorry to be OT, I just wanted to comment that you have a pretty slick sig! Very nice.

  14. #54
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruggles View Post
    Sorry to be OT, I just wanted to comment that you have a pretty slick sig! Very nice.
    Hehe thanks.

    Issue with 3 healing fights is that mechanics are distributed among the ranged DPS at too high of a frequency and are very frustrating to deal with.

    Either way we're just going back to 25M. We collectively cannot understand how anyone could enjoy 10M but we figure it's likely due to whichever format you begin the tier with is probably the one you will enjoy, because to try to switch is just frustration.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Hehe thanks.

    Issue with 3 healing fights is that mechanics are distributed among the ranged DPS at too high of a frequency and are very frustrating to deal with.

    Either way we're just going back to 25M. We collectively cannot understand how anyone could enjoy 10M but we figure it's likely due to whichever format you begin the tier with is probably the one you will enjoy, because to try to switch is just frustration.
    Hah, our healers all love 10m since they feel more involved directly. Our DPS all LOVE 25m since you can focus on deeeeeeps more, lol.

  16. #56
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Either way we're just going back to 25M. We collectively cannot understand how anyone could enjoy 10M but we figure it's likely due to whichever format you begin the tier with is probably the one you will enjoy, because to try to switch is just frustration.
    As a player who does both 25/10 and has done both 25/10 progression before, there's + and - sides to both. Of course with Mythic coming out you may be better off doing 25 anyway.

  17. #57
    IMO you should 3 heal shamans, malkorok, and thok. The Druid and priest provide you with your best two heal comp. shamans can't really keep up on any fight but Thok b/c they need people clumped which doesn't usually happen on 10m. As for your Dps comp. the hunter is amazing in 10m b/c they can bring and raid buff/debuff you want. Warlocks are very powerful due to Healthsones, a god send in 10 and gateway. I would also ask my retro shaman to go elemental. That combined with the VE from your spriest gives you sole very powerful throughput raid CDs.

    The ranged/melee problem is only important on Sha, malkorok, siegecrafter, and slightly on shamans. Sha of pride more ranged makes soaking the rifts and switching to the add faster and easier. On shamans you can run into problems AoEing the slimes with to much melee. On Malkorok with only two heals you can have range problems on healing players when they move to soak pools and with how messy the room gets your ranged can have trouble moving to the pools in time. Thus more ranged helps fix that. On siegecrafter if you solo heal you can have serious problems with the laser targeting your healer to often if you don't bring enough melee. With your raid comp I expect you will have a lot of problems with Thok. No devo aura makes that fight much harder to heal.

    I think your ideal comp would be two tanks, ele, mage, lock, warrior, spriest, disc, Druid, and the other mage. You could easily bring in the rogue or wind walker instead of the mage. Wind walkers are actually very good on Garrosh heroic b/c fist of fury lets you lock down a jade temple group very easily by yourself. I would certainly never bring more than 2 melee in 10m however.

  18. #58
    My two cents (even though the OP retreated back to ez mode 25s):

    At 575, any comp with most raid buffs is fine. We have done all bosses with 3 melee and it was fine. A truly dps optimal comp probably doesn't involve a shadow priest, but they do provide nice hybrid healing and spell haste. I strongly recommend DPS shaman as the healing CDs they provide are ultra OP.

    Just because a fight can be one-tanked or one-healed doesn't mean it's a good idea. Really what you want is a strategy you can learn quickly, repeat every week and not be pigeon-holed into a certain comp. IMO the easiest comps with ~575 gear are:

    Immerseus: 1 tank/3heal
    Protectors: 2 tank/2heal
    Norushen: 2 tank/2heal
    Galakras: 2 tank/2heal (zerg the tower with all dps but one to prevent one shots)
    Iron Juggernaut: 2 tank/3 heal
    Dark Shamans: 3 tank/3 heal
    Nazgrim: 2 tank/2 heal
    Malkorok: 2 tank/2 heal (having one tank solo soaking helps 1000%)
    Spoils: 2 tank/2 heal (one tanking is complicated to learn)
    Thok: 1 tank/3 heal (even 4 healing is fine and makes it super easy)
    Blackfuse: 2 tank/2 heal
    Paragons: 2 tank/2 heal
    Garrosh: 2 tank/2 heal (we haven't one tanked but it sounds like a good idea to me)

    Note: We now 2 heal everything as disc/Druid (+ ele shaman), except Thok. We have also done everything but Thok and Garrosh as disc/hpally and Druid/hpally
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  19. #59
    Immerseus, Protectors, Norushen , Sha and Thok are solo tankable.

    For 2 healing , we 2 heal all of the fights including Thok and Juggernaut , but then again we have 14/14 H on farm for a while now.

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