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  1. #1

    How difficult will Heroic paragons be for us? Worth extending?

    Hey all, my guild recently killed Heroic siegecrafter 2 weeks ago. We had progression on him Pre need to around 50%. We had to retrain a whole new tank so our progression stalled. We've got it all figured out now and are chugging along.
    We're going to start paragons this week, and we haven't touched it yet. I'm considering extending our lockout to try and push the fight over this week. We've had some issues with slacking on farm so it's taking us a night and a little bit extra to get to paragons.
    Obviously, at this point we have the gear to down it on most of our Raiders. We have a few new trials that need some gear, but not a whole lot.

    We raid for 3 days, 4 hours a night. From what I've seen paragons is a step down in difficulty from siege and we could maybe get it in a weekend. I could provide logs if it would affect your judgement, but it doesn't seem highly relevant.
    Do you think it's worth extending? How difficult is paragons relative to blackfuse (after nerfs)? How many pulls did it take your guild? At what time period?

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  2. #2
    Field Marshal Shoo's Avatar
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    Hey there!
    Indeed it is worth extending if you ask me. Paragons felt quite easier than Siegecrafter tbh.

  3. #3
    We had a spurt of bad attendance when we moved on to klaxxi so our progress lasted much longer than we had anticipated. Biggest thing is getting your raid group to realize that everyone out gears the fight like crazy now and they must dodge the mechanics over everything. There are only 3 dps checkpoints in the fight so make sure they save their cds and use them for skeer, korven and xaril. If they play the mechanics and just dodge the stuff to stay alive, the boss will die far before the enrage timer. Primarily rapid fire and whirl.

    We switched over to killing manipulator before iyyokuk and it died within 10 pulls - just spread when the lines go out and rotate through cds for them. (140 pulls total to kill)

    Also, 3 rogues + 2 or 3 locks dominated aim soaks for us.

  4. #4
    Looks like you raid 25m. 25m Paragons is ALOT harder on heroic than 10m. If it was 10m I'd definitely say extend.

    Depends if you have the need for gear or not at this point.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
    Looks like you raid 25m. 25m Paragons is ALOT harder on heroic than 10m. If it was 10m I'd definitely say extend.
    Didn't they just nerf 10m Paragons on the grounds that it 10m was far harder than intended?
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Didn't they just nerf 10m Paragons on the grounds that it 10m was far harder than intended?
    I'm pretty sure those nerfs applied to both sizes. It made 10m a joke while removing a few of the RNG burst deaths on 25.

    Paragons is the only boss that is harder on 25m than 10m.

  7. #7
    Edit: I am 10 man

    If you have the gear to take out BF, there really is no point in not extending unless you have very under geared replacements you will be relying on for Paragons/Garrosh or if your core will be missing members on earlier raid nights. Paragons IMO is not a hard fight at all. It seems a bit overwhelming at first but once you learn the order of when everything happens, its very methodical and predictive.

    If your tank can master the Parasite mechanic quickly, your group should progress quickly.

    When you are progressing on Korvan, have your DPS use second posts and cooldowns to meet that DPS check. Once you have progressed to get to the Kunchongs you will be good enough at Korvan to no longer need cooldowns here, then move to using them to beat maturing a kunchong after the second mesmerize.

  8. #8
    As a 25m guild, we killed Blackfuse twice, then extended out until Garrosh was dead. At no point did I, or anyone, feel that the missing gear was what was causing us problems. If you can kill one of the last 3, your gear is good enough for all of them. Sure gear makes things easier, but you'd need a pretty lucky loot week to make it worth it imo.
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  9. #9
    Not hard at all. If your raiders, who I assumed are half decent, are able to stay awake long enough to 1 shot the first 12 bosses then you should have a solid 2 nights (8 hours) worth of progression for Paragons along with gear upgrades from that week. 8 hours of progression should be wayyy more time than you need to kill this boss.

    I've never understood the logic of extending lockouts as it only takes you a couple hours to clear farm bosses assuming your raiders don't go full retard on farm bosses causing you to spend the rest of a night re-progressing on easy farm bosses.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Okay View Post
    I've never understood the logic of extending lockouts as it only takes you a couple hours to clear farm bosses assuming your raiders don't go full retard on farm bosses causing you to spend the rest of a night re-progressing on easy farm bosses.
    Well it happens.... and it happens for all guilds at some point. It is annoying and causes farm to take far longer than intended. Also I doubt that 8 hours is in any way enough for the average 25 man guilds who is at Paragons now to kill it first time. You are, once again, pulling numbers out of your arse.

    OT: Depends on your ilvl. If you have... say 576 or more on average I would just extend. Difference is minuscule and if your raid is any similar to ours, then people enjoy progress far more than farming 12 bosses.

  11. #11
    If you're 25's Paragons is a big step up from Blackfuse and harder than Garrosh (lower DPS requirement than garrosh though)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Didn't they just nerf 10m Paragons on the grounds that it 10m was far harder than intended?
    10man is a complete joke compared to 25. My guild took 200+ pulls on Siegecrafter (got to sub 20% prenerf) and we got paragons down in 60ish.

    It's probably better to just extend if you don't need the gear and can't rely on clean kills for farm content up to Paragons.

  13. #13
    Keyboard Turner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoo View Post
    Hey there!
    Indeed it is worth extending if you ask me. Paragons felt quite easier than Siegecrafter tbh.
    In my opinion it is no longer worth extending simply because what are you extending for? The following expansion is far away so does it matter if you kill Paragons this week or any other week? Also from my experience extending may cause bad raid moral because the farm is quite enjoyable for many players, myself included. So if you extend just to kill a boss it really is not worth it anymore at this point unless you are going for server first and other guilds are close to your progress.

  14. #14
    Having wrote this shortly before I left for my first class of the day I of course left out a few details.

    We are 25 man. We have a relatively large roster with most players at 572 or above. Majority are 575.

    We are losing our tank to a business trip in a few weeks. We have other tanks, but he's just on a whole not her skill level than them. They're pretty geared, we could get them more with farm to try and compensate for the skill gap or we could smash face on progression with our better tank.

    I think most of our raid is comfortable extending. Players realize they have enough gear to get the content done, so there's no raid moral risk.

    We've been going to shit on farm lately, from what I think is a lack of focus because people are bored farming. We suck on spoils and earlier, but when we hit siege people have that focus back

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  15. #15
    I'm assuming we're talking about 25man here.
    It took us around 40 pulls to kill siegecrafter(post nerf) but 120+ for paragon. Paragon is a much harder fight than siege on 25man. However, it doesn't have that hard of a dps check. If you can kill bloodseeker before the 2nd wave of blood reaches him you have the dps to down them. It's a fight much like siegecrafter where you get progressively better at through practice. If you are spending too much time wiping on farm bosses I'd say extend for paragon and get them sweet sweet tier legs faster.

  16. #16
    Well, if you have problems with focusing, Paragons might turn out to be quite a challenge. The nerfs were pretty minor compared to Siegecrafter and you probably won't even notice them during early progression. If you still wipe on farm bosses, it might be quite frustrating to progress on Paragons.

    Tanking is not very complicated in there, with most "difficult" part being early on - properly timing Injections so you release the parasites exactly when you need them and don't get killed by the dot if you screw up. Other than that, there are minor things like optimizing the scorpion usage, but eh, nothing that your "lesser" tanks couldn't handle. Assuming the difference isn't *too* big, that is.

    Gear barely matters, so repeated farming won't really help you. If your lack of focus is indeed due to boredom, that gear would be enough. Most early deaths will come from Rapid Fire, Aim, Whirling or failing to eat parasites. Ilvl changes nothing with those, they're usually massive overkills. And if you got that far, you should be good enough to easily beat Korwen's amber timer. Two catalysts are painful, but that's also largely dependant on boss ability usage and not a huge tragedy.

    Plus, with ~575, there's not much room to grow anyway. Might go for it, just remember that you'll have *a lot* of wipes to Hisek. Killing him with >22 alive might take a while.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    Well it happens.... and it happens for all guilds at some point.
    Not for my guild. It's not really hard to rekill and one shot bosses you've been killing for weeks.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Okay View Post
    Not for my guild. It's not really hard to rekill and one shot bosses you've been killing for weeks.
    Keep in mind your guilds is the best there is in the entire world, considering you one shot most bosses on progression. It has happened (and will continue happening at times) for all others.

  19. #19
    Pandaren Monk Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Didn't they just nerf 10m Paragons on the grounds that it 10m was far harder than intended?
    Pmsl

    Right.

    There are dungeon bosses that are harder than Paragons 10 HC.

    EDIT: @OP, I'd defintely extend, it's likely that this far into the tier (time-wise and boss-wise), your raiders are probably already outgearing the bosses. Just work on Garrosh now and farm once progression is done.

  20. #20
    My guild spent WAY longer on siegecrafter than we did on paragons, you should be ok.

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