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  1. #1
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    25 to 10 Heroic Comp Concerns

    Hey - normally I just solve my own problems but I wanted to push this one to the community because I know a lot of great people who run Heroic 10 mans peruse these boards and might give some feedback.

    Okay so we're all pretty much item level 575-580, including a bum disc priest who is 580.67. We used to be 11/14 25H, back in November. Holiday and other stuff was traumatic for our guild, but that's fine. We have now 1 25-man normal night for people who just returned to the game and don't have cloaks or things yet.

    To keep our main raiders entertained we want to do 10M heroics, no normals, then go help that normal group on our alts.

    We have:

    Tanks: Blood DK @ 573; Guardian Druid @ 577

    Healers: Disc @ 581; Resto Druid @ 575; Resto Shaman @ 578

    DPS:
    Mage @ 579
    Mage @ 576
    Warlock @ 578
    Hunter @ 578
    Fury Warr @ 572
    S.Priest @ 567
    Rogue @ 571
    Windwalker @ 565


    --
    I've been trying to figure out raid comps for each fight and I've been unsure of a few things:

    1) Does just one shadow priest off-healing and a fury warrior banner allow us to 2-heal every fight?
    2) Does our gear allow us to 1-heal anything?
    3) Which of those 8 DPS should be in for each fight? Does it matter much with our gear?
    4) Which 2 healers of the 3 should be in? I'm assuming Resto Shaman always for CDs


    We fully expect there to be synergy hiccups and a wake-up call about individual mechanics. We ran 10H last week and all played very well I think, but because we were 3-healing everything it went so slooooooooooooow.

    So yeah if any of you 10 manners out there wanna give some tips, my whole guild and I would really be thankful! We're going to be 10 man until we get 14/14H then start to build for Mythic.

  2. #2
    Shammies, jugger and thok are the only fights where 3 healing can be useful and with good healers and raid awareness its doable to 2 heal every fight, as in dps wise me personally wouldn't use a SP in the raid, yes you can get by with one but the other casters should pull miles ahead on every fight pretty much. Also more ranged the better as its preferable to only have 1 melee in the raid but you can get away with 2-3 and still be ok but things are much easier with ranged.

    the raid setup i would use for you is, 2 tanks, disc/druid, mage/mage/lock/war/hunter/rogue( or ele shammy most fights if he is good with it)
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2014-03-04 at 05:42 PM.

  3. #3
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Shammies, jugger and thok are the only fights where 3 healing can be useful and with good healers and raid awareness its doable to 2 heal every fight, as in dps wise me personally wouldn't use a SP in the raid, yes you can get by with one but the other casters should pull miles ahead on every fight pretty much. Also more ranged the better as its preferable to only have 1 melee in the raid but you can get away with 2-3 and still be ok but things are much easier with ranged.
    So have the hunter bring haste?

    We were really hoping to bring 2 melee because our monk is gearing for both windwalker and brewmaster so that our guardian can go back to his main spec of balance (he's an amazing druid, has ilvl 577 guardian & 578 balance sets and plays both so well).

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    So have the hunter bring haste?

    We were really hoping to bring 2 melee because our monk is gearing for both windwalker and brewmaster so that our guardian can go back to his main spec of balance (he's an amazing druid, has ilvl 577 guardian & 578 balance sets and plays both so well).
    balance is pretty good and BMs are really good tanks too so you can have healers switching out on bosses they need and possible rotating the occasional melee unless you want to stick to a specific setup but should have most buffs covered.

    Thok is the only one you want to consider raid cooldown wise the more the better otherwise you may want to 3 heal it.

    you probably want to use 3 tank, 3 heal tact on shammies just because it just makes it so simple.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2014-03-04 at 05:47 PM.

  5. #5
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    Get the damn spell haste man. HEALERS NEED IT.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    1) All fights can be 2 healed but I would recommend 3 on Iron Juggernaut and Thok especially for progression purposes. Shaman can also be 3 healed but your Disc and Druid can probably do it with 2 (send the Druid to Haromm's group, leave the Priest with Kardris). Immerseus is just less painful with 3 healers.

    2) One-healing isn't recommended for all but a few fights. Norushen can be easily done with 1 healer, and Siegecrafter and Garrosh are often done with a solo healer too. Spoils cannot be done with 1 healer unless you use the "one group" strategy.

    3) It doesn't matter much, but I would use the 4 pure DPS (higher geared mage, warlock, hunter, and rogue) for every fight, if you want to rotate people for the other two spots. That's for progress, for farm you can probably just sub in whatever DPS are needed. You should bring your monk to gear him too if you want him to off-tank Shamans.

    4) As put above, Disc and Druid.

    Also keep in mind a few fights may now be solo tanked too (thinking mainly of Thok).

  7. #7
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Whoa whoa which can be solo tanked?

    Because both our tanks are technically DPSers, and I'd love to free up that guardian/moonkin to DPS.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Whoa whoa which can be solo tanked? Because both our tanks are technically DPSers, and I'd love to free up that guardian/moonkin to DPS.
    Thok is the one I was thinking of. Most fights cannot really be due to mechanics.

  9. #9
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Thok is the one I was thinking of. Most fights cannot really be due to mechanics.
    Gotcha - I hear Norushen is too but it's not really easier because of orbs.

  10. #10
    1. Tbh, shadow priest aren't that great damage wise or healing wise. It'd be better to put him to the side or make him go disc or something and grab an elemental shaman instead but if it's your only resort, I guess it could work.

    3. Warlock and both mages should be in for every fight. I guess you could bring in the hunter if you need to. The 5th and 6th dps is a tough draw between the spriest and all the melee but I would prolly go with WW/spriest or WW/fury or fury/spriest.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Thok is the one I was thinking of. Most fights cannot really be due to mechanics.
    We've discussed solo tanking every boss in 10M. Seems doable, Dark Shaman would be most painful, Paragons slightly less so. But something like Fallen Protectors? Sun already isn't tanked and you'd have so much DPS that He and Rook would almost never be up at the same time anyway.
    "Wrong. Deterrence deflects 100% of Iron Prison (Not tomb) dmg." -Jaydenkor, 2014


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Whoa whoa which can be solo tanked?

    Because both our tanks are technically DPSers, and I'd love to free up that guardian/moonkin to DPS.
    You can solo tank:
    Immerseus
    Sha of Pride (Hero on pull and beat second swelling pride cast)
    Spoils of Pandaria (If you do the one-group strategy. We've always solo tanked it.)
    Thok
    Garrosh - Apparently. We've never tried it but I've heard of guilds getting their first kills solo tanking it.

    There might be a couple others but it's really not worth it.

    You could run the 565 Windwalker as BrM for the first 10 bosses most likely if you want the Druid to play Balance. At those gear levels you are just going to steamroll things until Siegecrafter.

    We two-heal everything except Thok with Resto Druid / Disc Priest. We could two-heal that as well but we'd have to modify our strategy a little bit and we've just never bothered doing it. There's also a bunch of fights that could probably be solo-healed at this point - but there's not really a reason to unless someone is trying to parse during farm or whatever.

    Can the Resto Shaman play Elemental competently? Having three well-geared healers like that just isn't necessary outside of Thok. If you three heal things then they are going to be bored out of their minds most of the time.
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  13. #13
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellog View Post
    You can solo tank:
    Immerseus
    Sha of Pride (Hero on pull and beat second swelling pride cast)
    Spoils of Pandaria (If you do the one-group strategy. We've always solo tanked it.)
    Thok
    Garrosh - Apparently. We've never tried it but I've heard of guilds getting their first kills solo tanking it.

    There might be a couple others but it's really not worth it.

    You could run the 565 Windwalker as BrM for the first 10 bosses most likely if you want the Druid to play Balance. At those gear levels you are just going to steamroll things until Siegecrafter.

    We two-heal everything except Thok with Resto Druid / Disc Priest. We could two-heal that as well but we'd have to modify our strategy a little bit and we've just never bothered doing it. There's also a bunch of fights that could probably be solo-healed at this point - but there's not really a reason to unless someone is trying to parse during farm or whatever.

    Can the Resto Shaman play Elemental competently? Having three well-geared healers like that just isn't necessary outside of Thok. If you three heal things then they are going to be bored out of their minds most of the time.
    Very helpful and reassuring - thanks - I like that we can just use the BM monk idea to regain our allstar moonkin.

  14. #14
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    We've discussed solo tanking every boss in 10M. Seems doable, Dark Shaman would be most painful, Paragons slightly less so. But something like Fallen Protectors? Sun already isn't tanked and you'd have so much DPS that He and Rook would almost never be up at the same time anyway.
    Yeah, I haven't had enough experience to know what "cannot" be other than ones because of mechanics. I wouldn't imagine Malkorok is doable except maybe if you immensely overgear the fight. Siegecrafter, same deal. General Nazgrim would be extremely painful, you would have constant Ravagers.

    Fallen Protectors could probably be solo tanked easy at this point. As others mentioned Spoils can be done with a 1 group strategy... probably most of the early bosses just due to massive overgearing.

  15. #15
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    Some early Siegecrafters were single-tanked, single-healed...
    "Wrong. Deterrence deflects 100% of Iron Prison (Not tomb) dmg." -Jaydenkor, 2014


  16. #16
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Yeah, I haven't had enough experience to know what "cannot" be other than ones because of mechanics. I wouldn't imagine Malkorok is doable except maybe if you immensely overgear the fight. Siegecrafter, same deal. General Nazgrim would be extremely painful, you would have constant Ravagers.

    Fallen Protectors could probably be solo tanked easy at this point. As others mentioned Spoils can be done with a 1 group strategy... probably most of the early bosses just due to massive overgearing.
    All of the first 8 except for Nazgrim and Sha can be solo tanked(Pride/rage), though most groups use a split tactic for Shamans, so you'd still need 2 tanks there. And god knows why you'd want to 1 tank Galakras.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Thok is the one I was thinking of. Most fights cannot really be due to mechanics.
    You can solo-tank the first boss. You can solo-tank Protectors, but it is risky (gouge while stunned means all the mobs run off to kill a clothie). If you can push Sha of Pride before the second Ultimate you can solo-tank it. You can solo-tank Spoils but it really isn't worth the effort. You can solo-tank Thok. You can solo-tank Siegecrafter. You can solo-tank Garrosh.

    Your group massively over-gears the content. Group composition hardly matters with your amount of gear (you won't want 3 melee dps, but other than that anything goes). Your disc priest can probably solo-heal most of the bosses.
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  18. #18
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    What's crazy, and it must be a 25M mindset or something-- is we are finding 10M to be magnitudes harder than 25M.

    We were the ones carrying the others, too. We have to actually communicate and do fights right. Which is tough because we did 11/14H on 25M without really much strategy at all.

    We used to be able to clear the first 9 or 10 in one night. Last night we killed 4. I wonder if we're just trying to do 25M strats on 10M and it's making our lives too difficult.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tVAY6dqg7MchC3jb

    We're going to get back into 25s soon I think, this is a psychological hit.

  19. #19
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    What's crazy, and it must be a 25M mindset or something-- is we are finding 10M to be magnitudes harder than 25M.
    10M has always had its challenges compared to 25M and this is one of the tiers where 10M isn't tuned stupidly easier than 25M (think the second half of Cataclysm). Also a lot of the fight strategies are slightly changed. I'll look over your logs in a second.

    For one tanking, focus on practicality: I would just go with Thok (possibly), possibly Spoils if you do the 1 group strategy, and that's it for now. Since for your group, the question is not whether it is possible for an insane group to 1 tank for kicks, but whether it will actually help you learn fights faster.

    Same goes for one healing, I wouldn't recommend it except on Norushen and later on possibly Siegecrafter. It's not saying that other fights can't be solo healed, but you probably won't gain much doing so.

    Logs: The main one that seemed to hold you guys was Sha of Pride, he is harder to learn on 10m because your raid tends to group all together and you want to take advantage of the buffs (unlike 25m) but you still need to soak the rifts. Use your group's mobility (warlock portals/gateways, mage blinks, druid/rogue sprints, tanks) to soak the "tank side" rifts as much as possible make sure you don't do that right as Banishment is about to go out.

  20. #20
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    helpful feedback nightfalls-- thanks

    We're our own worst enemy, we want to just get back to where we were :P

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