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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Feindy View Post
    hey, I got 3 fucking chests. If that means works fine, then I dont know how it looks when something doesnt work fine.
    Read the article where removing valor points was discussed:
    “We think we can take the bonus rolls system and make it a little bit more intelligent, so that it tries to avoid giving you duplicate loots - and allow that to be the way players counteract bad RNG,” explained Hazzikostas.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The High Druid View Post
    Bonus rolls would have to be pretty much guaranteed to give an item every 7 rolls to be on-par with the valor system . . . less if it's still possible to get duplicates / "wrong" items.
    You must have glossed over this in the 5.3 patch notes:
    Protection for bad luck streaks have been added to bonus rolls. Each bonus roll that does not provide loot has a progressively better chance to award loot to the player.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Well, either we tell people to go grind valor every week to get guaranteed gear, or we improve bonus rolls to the point where actually grinding content is not needed anymore. Bonus rolls, absolutely can fill the role of Valor if done properly.
    The problem is that bonus rolls can give BiS so they can't improve it to the point you are saying.

    If there are 3 usable items from a boss for a player and one is a BiS item with a normal 1% drop rate. All the players do is bonus roll the first 2 items and then wait the 3 dud rolls until they get their BiS. Blizzard would never allow that, it would kill the long term viability of raids as people would get full BiS in next to no time.

    They are trying to fill two different requirements with a single system. Both are caused by poor RNG but the requirements are very different. Any tweaking of the system will affect both. High level raiders will only use bonus rolls on BiS gear. Normal raider will use it to try and fill the gaps. If you push up the odds for the normal guy trying to get a missing item you will also increase the odds to much for the high level guy.

    My suggestion was to have a combination of both. If you don't like the valor system, let people buy gear with coins. Max 3 coins per week and "coin" items which have a normal ilvl cost something like 6 coins each. That way, they can tune the coins however they want but people who have crummy RNG can still fill in the gaps.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Um, yes it does.

    Never before in the history of WoW have you had the option to not only re-roll for loot, but do it as many times as you want as long as you have coins. I've managed to get 4p tier in one day on my hunter from bonus rolls. One day.

    Now, I don't agree with the idea of removing currencies. I like the upgrade system with VP now combined with bonus rolls. I don't want the change. But definitely bonus rolls are superior to valor in terms of getting gear.
    You got to be kidding... with all due respect. In 99 of 100 Rolls i got Gold... I can wipe my ass with gold, you know? I got bad luck with rolls since 9 fucking solid years. And this hilariously bad excuse for a "loot system" is not getting any more fair with a bonus roll that gives yet another chance as long as its designed with as much intelligence as a toothbrush has to offer. I rather farm my coins over weeks to make up for an Item i get to a 100% at some date, then having this laughable additional chance on getting jackshit, and that's usually all i get. I still walk around with a Flex-Helmet and LFR-Weapon... the rest is bloody heroics gear, except my belt which is forged since no fucking thing dropped yet. In the entire bonus-roll terror i am going through i got a Ring in SuO, and some minor parts at the very beginning of normal and flex. To me this system is worth nothing... and if there really is that big of a difference in terms of chances... I am sorry, then its a bad system...
    Last edited by SoundOfGuns; 2014-03-06 at 09:21 PM.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    You got to be kidding... with all due respect. In 99 of 100 Rolls i got Gold... I can wipe my ass with gold, you know? I got bad luck with rolls since 9 fucking solid years.
    Then you must have been ecstatic when you read the 5.3 patch notes:
    Protection for bad luck streaks have been added to bonus rolls. Each bonus roll that does not provide loot has a progressively better chance to award loot to the player.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    I think judging by this thread thats clearly not the case. Also nearly every other MMO and every RPG uses RNG, so in truth, players like RNG.
    Players don't love RNG. Developers do as it artificially extends content.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Actually the loot coin system is less of a grind because instead of grinding out 16 bosses every single week to collect the valor to purchase/upgrade stuff we can go back to the old system where players would specifically queue for that one instance that had the item they wanted. It's actually going to be a relief to go back to that.
    I don't see how.

    With Valor as it is now, you don't have to just grind those bosses to reach Valor cap. There are other ways: TI weekly quest, daily scenario, daily dungeon, rares, daillies.

    I can't see it being more fun after you have nothing left to do after you kill the boss you need a drop from on Tuesday.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thugicorn View Post
    Meaningful progression is relative. I think clearing Normal and Heroic modes is meaningful. But I also know some people that think it's more meaningful to max tradeskills, achievement hunt, collect pets/mounts, etc. All of which can be considered progress.
    Maxing tradeskills, achievement hunting and collecting pets/mounts are side-diversions. They will not help you dive into the next content patch - thus requiring Blizzard to implement catch-up mechanisms to get everyone else up to the relative power level of the few that raid.

    Valor acted, in a manner, as a catch-up mechanism when there was comparable gear to purchase.

    Not at all. But Normal/Heroic raids have always been (primarily) guild related activities. And I think that's what they're intended for. Guilds help organize and schedule harder player reliant content.
    People have tried to pug normal raids since before WoW was even announced. Guilds were more successful at it obviously, as any organization unit intentionally specialized toward a specific purpose will be more successful.

    Heroic raiding is something that came along later and yes, it is much more guild oriented but I'm not convinced there is a large enough segment of the MMORPG genre that actually participates in it to call it anything other than a micro-niche activity. Certainly not something with enough player participation to justify handing out additional tiers of highly inflated gear that must be caught-up to every subsequent patch.

    Why play MMORPG's if you just want to play it single player? That's effectively what you're doing by pugging. You're just using people to clear content for yourself. Instead of making friends, interacting with people, building a social group, and downing content together. Frankly I think it's more beneficial and much easier to join a guild and start raiding than pugging if your this sort of player. Some guilds don't even require much of the social aspect from you. But you won't have to worry about the potential bad players and get better loot for your self.
    Where do you conclude that a MMORPG must be about constantly grouping with a large group to accomplish anything?

    How can you possibly say that someone that is pugging a raid is effectively playing solo? How is that even possible? Is the rest of the raid filled with server controlled bots?

    Your logic is... not logic.

    As for having friends - I have them. We just prefer smaller group content over being a cog in a large machine. I prefer having the potential of being required to use my character's entire toolbox of abilities, which is the strength of small group content - though unfortunately, WoW has been neglecting that in small group content too.

    Alot of people might not sign up for a challenge. But I don't think there would be much of a game without it. At this point I think you're saying people play wow to have a glorified chat room with dress up. That's why games are popular right? They challenge you in some form or another. And it's fun.
    People do play WoW for a glorified chat room with dress-up dolly.

    I have never heard someone in game willingly (and seriously) request to turn off the raid-nerf buff or intentionally make something harder to do unless there was some incredibly inflated award for doing so.

    How many people did you ever hear during Wrath actually ask to click off the buff? No one ever. They don't want challenge - they want success. Those two concepts are as different as night and day.

    As to why people aren't downing garrosh enough. Plenty of reasons.
    End of expansion.
    New Expansion Soon.
    Wildstar and ESO releasing.
    Hearthstone and the LoL-Clone releasing.
    Stale content.
    Nope.

    They don't want challenge and LFR is still a freaking wipe-fest deep in SoO unless you get lucky and have some normal/heroic folks to carry it. There are too many mechanics, even in LFR, to hold the interest of the general playerbase. A second factor is they are just plain tired of raid, raid, raid and more raids.

    Quite a few of the people I used to play with aren't playing because MoP and Cata don't compare to Wotlk and TBC. The expacs that made the game really popular.
    WotLK finished up the prime storyline for Warcraft 3. For many, that was a logical place to step off the train.

    Cataclysm also left a sour taste in many player's mouths over the "lewlz_challenge" debacle Blizzard pulled.

    MoP to me was okay. I'm not a big Asian-theme fan but the downer on MoP is just how Blizzard went all raid or die and neglected all dungeons/scenarios. Not a single new dungeon since 5.0. That should be against a MMORPG law somewhere. Scenarios were largely abandoned as a primary content vehicle too - could have been so much better.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    The problem is that bonus rolls can give BiS so they can't improve it to the point you are saying.

    If there are 3 usable items from a boss for a player and one is a BiS item with a normal 1% drop rate. All the players do is bonus roll the first 2 items and then wait the 3 dud rolls until they get their BiS. Blizzard would never allow that, it would kill the long term viability of raids as people would get full BiS in next to no time.

    They are trying to fill two different requirements with a single system. Both are caused by poor RNG but the requirements are very different. Any tweaking of the system will affect both. High level raiders will only use bonus rolls on BiS gear. Normal raider will use it to try and fill the gaps. If you push up the odds for the normal guy trying to get a missing item you will also increase the odds to much for the high level guy.

    My suggestion was to have a combination of both. If you don't like the valor system, let people buy gear with coins. Max 3 coins per week and "coin" items which have a normal ilvl cost something like 6 coins each. That way, they can tune the coins however they want but people who have crummy RNG can still fill in the gaps.
    This ultimately just capped Valor at 10 instead of 1000 (assuming Valor was removed). Valor capped at 10 under the guise of a new coin label would also prevent it from being awarded from other smaller group type content.

  7. #187
    Legendary! Pony Soldier's Avatar
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    I'm open to both systems, bonus roll and JP/VP currency. I very much enjoyed the JP/VP system because it was a guaranteed way of getting good gear. The only problem that I'm worried about regarding the bonus roll system is having those "bad luck" rolls where you would run the dungeon like 20 times in a row and still all you would get was gold (like how LFR was before they increased the rate of gear dropping). As long as I am still able to upgrade my gear just as if there was JP/VP, I'll be ok with Blizzard getting rid of the JP/VP system. Plus so far in LFR I've been getting gear everytime that I'm in there so I don't think the bonus rolls will be that bad. Now the only thing I'm wondering about is the higher ilvl gear that you can buy with VP from rep vendors like the Shado Pan Assault vendors that is not available in LFR raids. Is everything just going to be in the dungeons or will LFR reward those higher ilvl gear now?
    - "If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black" - Jo Bodin, BLM supporter
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  8. #188
    Where do you conclude that a MMORPG must be about constantly grouping with a large group to accomplish anything?

    How can you possibly say that someone that is pugging a raid is effectively playing solo? How is that even possible? Is the rest of the raid filled with server controlled bots?

    Your logic is... not logic.
    I was referring to Pug Raiding. The thing we were originally discussing.
    You do have to group with a large amount of people to pug raids. 10 people being the minimum.
    I'm saying the mentality is a solo mindset. Self-serving. The opposite of what MMO's were made for.
    Not taking people who meet requirements because they don't exceed the requirements is very self-centered when you're the person calling the shots.

    People do play WoW for a glorified chat room with dress-up dolly.

    I have never heard someone in game willingly (and seriously) request to turn off the raid-nerf buff or intentionally make something harder to do unless there was some incredibly inflated award for doing so.

    How many people did you ever hear during Wrath actually ask to click off the buff? No one ever. They don't want challenge - they want success. Those two concepts are as different as night and day.
    Thankfully, they don't develop Video Games.
    Also let's cut down on the highly generalized statements.

    http://www.wowironman.com/
    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Brawler's_Guild

    I guess I just have a less-entitled outdated mindset. Because Ultima Online, EverQuest, and DAoC is what started this all. And you had to love a challenge in those games, to do anything.
    Last edited by Thugicorn; 2014-03-06 at 11:44 PM.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
    With Valor as it is now, you don't have to just grind those bosses to reach Valor cap. There are other ways: TI weekly quest, daily scenario, daily dungeon, rares, daillies.
    Yes, and except for the weekly quest, which requires several hours of mindlessly killling elites and rares on timeless isle, those methods require you to log in every single freaking day. At least in Cataclysm you could chain heroic dungeons for a few hours. Now you get 80 VP for the first one and after that you're only getting 40 apiece. For 1000 valor thats 23 dungeons in a single day if you want to cap. If you do a dungeon every day that still only gets you 560 valor and then you need to do 11 more dungeons on top of that. Valor capping through dungeons is extremely inefficient. But no one does that. Let's throw scenarios into the mix. With one dungeon and one scenario you get 130 points per day for a total of 910 for the week. That leaves on LFR run or a couple more dungeons and a couple more scenarios. That's not so bad. On the other hand, look at the players who can only log in one day a week. They get 130 points and then have to grind out 870 more at a rate of 40 VP per dungeon and 25 VP per scenario. Assuming an even mix of dungeons and scenarios, that's seven more of each that they have to do. It's actually pretty brutal and grindy for weekend WoW warriors. Not so bad if you have a couple of hours to spend on WoW every single night.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  10. #190
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    Players don't love RNG. Developers do as it artificially extends content.
    I certainly wouldn't use a term like love, that is extreme. To say its only a tool for developers just doesn't hold any water, sorry. Lots of people enjoy rng, as evidenced by this very thread.

    Players don't love valor. Developers use it to artificially encourage weekly log ins, to artificially make you feel you need to cap every week.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2014-03-07 at 12:27 AM.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Thugicorn View Post
    I was referring to Pug Raiding. The thing we were originally discussing.
    You do have to group with a large amount of people to pug raids. 10 people being the minimum.
    I'm saying the mentality is a solo mindset. Self-serving. The opposite of what MMO's were made for.
    I disagree, I think many people enjoy having other players nearby. It makes their game environment seem more alive, at least in certain ways. MMOs have never really had great participation when they have began to push content that required groups.

    Past level 15, most classes in EQ1 required a group to level. EQ1 peaked at less than 10% of the playerbase that WoW has now.

    Not taking people who meet requirements because they don't exceed the requirements is very self-centered when you're the person calling the shots.
    While I will agree that some pug leaders set the bar too high, there always has to be a minimum requirement. Your statement makes a ludicrous assertion that even requiring any requirement at all makes the leader self-centered. I cannot agree with that.

    Requiring folks to be level 90 is a requirement, even without an itemlevel attached to it. Would that too make a pug leader self-centered?

    Thankfully, they don't develop Video Games.
    Also let's cut down on the highly generalized statements.

    http://www.wowironman.com/
    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Brawler's_Guild

    I guess I just have a less-entitled outdated mindset. Because Ultima Online, EverQuest, and DAoC is what started this all. And you had to love a challenge in those games, to do anything.
    If you summed the total of all unique players listed on those websites, you'd find it would be a very small number when compared to the complete WoW playerbase.

    Players seeking challenge is a niche market. The rest are looking for entertainment that may or may not include other people and friends. If it was the way you insinuate, then millions of people would be trying to down Garrosh on heroic right now.

    They are not.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    You're limited to total coins you have. Max of 10, which is achievable if you haven't used coins in a few weeks. Unless you're just starting out this week, there are absolutely bosses that you need nothing from.

    Well, one, VP can't buy gear for the SoO tier. So already the bonus roll is superior. Two, the bonus roll can also award warforged gear, which is an improvement over the normal 553/540/528 that drops from SoO (though I don't think that works in LFR). Three, the bonus roll can award gold which...well, honestly is pretty damn useful for a guild wiping a lot on a specific boss.
    I feel like you're missing the entire point.

    The reason the bonus roll was superior is simply because they chose not to add valor gear, but upgrading through valor got me a lot more ilvls than bonus rolls did in the first 5 weeks. The whole point of the valor system was to *GUARANTEE* you got something even if you were unlucky. The bonus roll system does not do this at all, it rewards good luck and penalizes bad luck. This is exactly opposite and doesn't fill valor at all.

    As for the gold, I believe my average reward is 25g~. That's <2 deaths, fairly negligible.

    Yes on average you will gear up faster as a group because of coins just like with valour, but no it does not fill valours point of helping out the unlucky ones by letting them get some upgrades. It took me 5 weeks to get anything from coins start of this patch (yeah I know you will probably bring the quote from some random blue saying that's impossible - they say a lot of incorrect things). Valor I would have 2-3 upgrades by that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  13. #193
    The Patient jadedfuture's Avatar
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    Increase the amount of bonus rolls given to 4-5 and we'll be cool.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Yes, and except for the weekly quest, which requires several hours of mindlessly killling elites and rares on timeless isle, those methods require you to log in every single freaking day. At least in Cataclysm you could chain heroic dungeons for a few hours. Now you get 80 VP for the first one and after that you're only getting 40 apiece. For 1000 valor thats 23 dungeons in a single day if you want to cap. If you do a dungeon every day that still only gets you 560 valor and then you need to do 11 more dungeons on top of that. Valor capping through dungeons is extremely inefficient. But no one does that. Let's throw scenarios into the mix. With one dungeon and one scenario you get 130 points per day for a total of 910 for the week. That leaves on LFR run or a couple more dungeons and a couple more scenarios. That's not so bad. On the other hand, look at the players who can only log in one day a week. They get 130 points and then have to grind out 870 more at a rate of 40 VP per dungeon and 25 VP per scenario. Assuming an even mix of dungeons and scenarios, that's seven more of each that they have to do. It's actually pretty brutal and grindy for weekend WoW warriors. Not so bad if you have a couple of hours to spend on WoW every single night.
    It doesn't take several hours to do the weekly on TI.

    Just doing the weekly and the daily scenario alone, which may add up to 2 hours over the whole week of playtime nets 550 Valor. That's over halfway without doing a single dungeon, daily quest or raid boss.

    If you split the TI weekly over 3 days and do the Path of the Mistwalker daily while doing the daily scenario, then at the end of the week you would have 700 Valor, without killing a single raid boss or even doing a single dungeon. This would require about 3 hours of time spread across 7 days. This can also be done while waiting in a queue for LFR, Dungeons or PvP - or while waiting for Flex. This is about 26mins of playing per day of the week. There is also an instant port to the island once there's enough rep - so there isn't even travel time at that point.

    Capping Valor is not difficult. Stop trying to act like it is some monumental task.
    Last edited by Raeln; 2014-03-07 at 02:38 PM.

  15. #195
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
    Capping Valor is not difficult. Stop trying to act like it is some monumental task.
    Difficult =/= PITA, sorry but the guy you quoted is right, valor capping right now for non raiders is a tad dragged out, thankfully capping isn't that necessary to non raiders anymore due to the much improved gearing system of this tier.

  16. #196
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I feel like you're missing the entire point.
    That bad luck can offset good luck every so often? Yeah we get that point, its been raised at least every other post I'm sure. Its a valid criticism but it doesn't mean that bonus roles are the wrong route to take, it's just not to everyone's liking.

    They both have pros and cons. The grind to cap valor and the fact if you miss a week you're further back from everyone are negatives of valor. Blizzard won't win either way.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2014-03-07 at 04:07 PM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Difficult =/= PITA, sorry but the guy you quoted is right, valor capping right now for non raiders is a tad dragged out, thankfully capping isn't that necessary to non raiders anymore due to the much improved gearing system of this tier.
    I can cap valor in less time than it takes to clear SoO in LFR.

    Obviously, we are talking about differences in perspective. I am getting to the point where dragging through 6 min boss fights is PITA to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    That bad luck can offset good luck every so often? Yeah we get that point, its been raised at least every other post I'm sure. Its a valid criticism but it doesn't mean that bonus roles are the wrong route to take, it's just not to everyone's liking.

    They both have pros and cons. The grind to cap valor and the fact if you miss a week you're further back from everyone are negatives of valor. Blizzard won't win either way.
    The same could be said if you don't burn your 3 bonus rolls every week though. Skipping a week is skipping a week - whether it's valor or by not killing a boss. Either way, there is lost potential to progressing your character.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
    Capping Valor is not difficult. Stop trying to act like it is some monumental task.
    I never said it was difficult. I said that it was grindy and boring. It also puts the weekend WoW warriors at a huge disadvantage because their grind is much longer.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  19. #199
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
    The same could be said if you don't burn your 3 bonus rolls every week though. Skipping a week is skipping a week - whether it's valor or by not killing a boss. Either way, there is lost potential to progressing your character.
    No, because I'd still have 6 bonus rolls in one week, compared to only 1000 Valor, so that particular scenario would favour Bonus rolls. I havent really played for 3 weeks, I havent needed to cap valor so am sat around 600, but I have 9 bonus rolls waiting for my next Flexi raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    For a non-raider capping valor takes less time than raiding and capping valor does for a raider.
    Yup, but a raider works to cap valor by default, so although it may take them more hours they aren't actively seeking the cap for a lot of that play. A non raider will chase those 1000 valor points so it feels dragged out, in my opinion anyway

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    That bad luck can offset good luck every so often? Yeah we get that point, its been raised at least every other post I'm sure. Its a valid criticism but it doesn't mean that bonus roles are the wrong route to take, it's just not to everyone's liking.

    They both have pros and cons. The grind to cap valor and the fact if you miss a week you're further back from everyone are negatives of valor. Blizzard won't win either way.
    If you miss a week of raiding, then you are a week behind others too. You have missed 3 bonus rolls too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I never said it was difficult. I said that it was grindy and boring. It also puts the weekend WoW warriors at a huge disadvantage because their grind is much longer.
    The "grind" is not any longer for someone that chooses to only play on Saturday & Sunday than it is for someone that only plays two other days of the week.

    In 5.4 - the Valor cap has never been easier to cap out. Does that mean the content to play while capping it out is the most interesting ever? No, but it's not some long and arduous process to cap it out.

    To go further, if someone limited to just the weekend to play - then I'm not sure they should be worried about capping Valor anyway. Seems to me they should just enjoy what they are able to accomplish - and just what they are able to accomplish in MoP 5.4 is much greater than when compared to what they would be able to accomplish on the weekend back in TBC.

    I find it interesting that capping Valor is being lambasted as such a grind when what else is there to do when queue times for LFR are at minimum 20mins if you are a DPS. SoO wings have commonly been 45+ minutes. That's 45 minutes to go pick up some Valor, rather than sit around the city idle.

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