Bonus roll system now replaces Valor?

[draykorinee]

If you miss a week of raiding, then you are a week behind others too. You have missed 3 bonus rolls too.

If, and thats a big if, I couldnt log in at all for a week, I'd agree. However if I could log in for 2 minutes, do the quest, get my rolls, I havent missed any bonus rolls, I would still have those 3 the following week to make 6 in one raid. Yes I have fallen behind by missing a week, but comparing Valor I would be a whole 1000 valor down. Thats my point. Its easier to fall behind with valor than bonus rolls.

[Deleted]

It's only a garenteed replacement if the Valor items for the patch are items you actually need, if they're not than they're not a garenteed replacement and valor is nothing (other than upgrade gear but that might be gone?)

[Lethey Alexandros]

Um, yes it does.

Never before in the history of WoW have you had the option to not only re-roll for loot, but do it as many times as you want as long as you have coins. I've managed to get 4p tier in one day on my hunter from bonus rolls. One day.

Now, I don't agree with the idea of removing currencies. I like the upgrade system with VP now combined with bonus rolls. I don't want the change. But definitely bonus rolls are superior to valor in terms of getting gear.

I agree, the upgrade system is nice and I think it should stay as it is another viable option to not getting the peices you want. So if your limited re-rolls dont give you anything that week then you could upgrade an item for a few more stats. Maybe change it to 1 upgrade per item so as not to devalue the next raid teir till you have enoug valor to upgrade the items as well.

[Raeln]

No, because I'd still have 6 bonus rolls in one week, compared to only 1000 Valor, so that particular scenario would favour Bonus rolls. I havent really played for 3 weeks, I havent needed to cap valor so am sat around 600, but I have 9 bonus rolls waiting for my next Flexi raid.

Now which is it - are you not playing for the full week or just not doing anything in game for the week?

If you didn't log in for the entire week, then you don't have those 3 coins for bonus rolls at all - you missed them.

If you did log in (perhaps just to get the coins), then to use those 6 bonus rolls to try to get that one piece of gear you need - you'll have to kill that same boss multiple times. At that point, there's awhole lot of time that I'm calling wasted while you do that in LFR to kill a boss that you get nothing from except to burn a bonus roll. At this point, Valor far exceeds your bonus rolls in value.

With your example, I'd go far enough to say that even if you didn't play much during the week, Valor still benefits you more because you could log in, do a scenario a day and log out - spending less than 30mins in game and still have up to 350 Valor for almost no effort. You aren't going to kill any raid boss to use a bonus roll in less than 30mins of gametime a day unless the stars align just right and you get to walk right into someone's raid at just the right moment. Then to assume it just happens to be the boss you need gear from is another large chance on top of it.

Valor trumps bonus rolls. It's consistent and can be tooled to be earned from several different sources.

Bonus rolls are just RNG and due to their nature must be kept on small caps and can only apply to big raid bosses - meaning few actual sources.

Yup, but a raider works to cap valor by default, so although it may take them more hours they aren't actively seeking the cap for a lot of that play. A non raider will chase those 1000 valor points so it feels dragged out, in my opinion anyway

Since the Valor vendors were forsaken in 5.4 - there is no reason for a raider to Valor cap every week. They only need to retain enough Valor to double-shot upgrade their gear if they win an upgrade. That's 500 Valor.

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If, and thats a big if, I couldnt log in at all for a week, I'd agree. However if I could log in for 2 minutes, do the quest, get my rolls, I havent missed any bonus rolls, I would still have those 3 the following week to make 6 in one raid. Yes I have fallen behind by missing a week, but comparing Valor I would be a whole 1000 valor down. Thats my point. Its easier to fall behind with valor than bonus rolls.

Sigh.

Look... if you only have 2 minutes to log in and get the 3 bonus rolls for the entire freakin' week then there is no reason to try to even compare that to anything else in game. The other 6,999,999 players shouldn't be impacted just because you only have 2 minutes of gaming for that week. I'll go even further, what if you only have 2 minutes per week for 2 more weeks? You'll soon be capped out on bonus rolls - then what?

I'm not trying to be rude - it's just really... your scenario is so far out there that I should have just ignored it and went on.

TLDR: If you only had 2 minutes to play for the whole week - raiding is not even a consideration for you at all, which means bonus rolls are USELESS to you.

[draykorinee]

Now which is it - are you not playing for the full week or just not doing anything in game for the week?

Not doing anything or only able to log in quickly before jetting off to go on holiday

If you didn't log in for the entire week, then you don't have those 3 coins for bonus rolls at all - you missed them.

Agreed, so both equally useless.

If you did log in (perhaps just to get the coins), then to use those 6 bonus rolls to try to get that one piece of gear you need - you'll have to kill that same boss multiple times. At that point, there's awhole lot of time that I'm calling wasted while you do that in LFR to kill a boss that you get nothing from except to burn a bonus roll. At this point, Valor far exceeds your bonus rolls in value.

Whre did this one piece of gear scenario come from? What if that ONE piece of gear is a trinket/weapon/off hand or a tier piece, how would valor far exceed a bonus roll? There are multiple bosses that give all of these. If I only needed on piece and it was that specific then possibly Valor would win out, just, if that piece was even available.

With your example, I'd go far enough to say that even if you didn't play much during the week, Valor still benefits you more because you could log in, do a scenario a day and log out - spending less than 30mins in game and still have up to 350 Valor for almost no effort. You aren't going to kill any raid boss to use a bonus roll in less than 30mins of gametime a day unless the stars align just right and you get to walk right into someone's raid at just the right moment. Then to assume it just happens to be the boss you need gear from is another large chance on top of it.

Again, we're assuming we only need one specific piece for one specific spec here, and that its one specific item that is available via valor. Thats a lot of ifs, The most likely scenario is that you need multiple peices from multiple bosses and that item is not available from Valor, or the valor gear is poorly optiomised/not BiS

Valor trumps bonus rolls. It's consistent and can be tooled to be earned from several different sources.

Its consistenly useful for specific slots, it wont give weapons or tier gear and it often doesnt give trinkets, it requires a grind to get to cap, often driving you to do things you have no interest in.

Both have positives and negatives, I'm not advocating bonus roles trumps valor for everyone, nor for every situation.

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TLDR: If you only had 2 minutes to play for the whole week - raiding is not even a consideration for you at all, which means bonus rolls are USELESS to you.

False, I was on holiday just last week, I logged in and got my bonus rolls, I raided this week and had 6 bonus rolls. I had zero Valor gained, last week. (This isn't a made up anecdote, I did go on holiday :P)

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The other 6,999,999 players shouldn't be impacted just because you only have 2 minutes of gaming for that week

Hyperbole I'm afraid. I could have raided for 20 hours wiping on heroic garrosh and not had time to do extra activities to cap.

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I'm not trying to be rude - it's just really... your scenario is so far out there that I should have just ignored it and went on.

Ditto, the scenario that a person needs one piece and that piece is available from Valor is just an incrdibly hard scenario to get to. Valor gear is primarily a stop gap, a gauranteed improvement on older gear, its rarely the last piece in the puzzle.

[Raeln]

Whre did this one piece of gear scenario come from? What if that ONE piece of gear is a trinket/weapon/off hand or a tier piece, how would valor far exceed a bonus roll? There are multiple bosses that give all of these. If I only needed on piece and it was that specific then possibly Valor would win out, just, if that piece was even available.

The strength of the Valor system is to let someone with a bad streak of luck be able to buy the piece they need (or comparable) and move on. To compare Valor to the bonus roll system, then you can't assume that someone is just going to burn a bonus roll on every single boss they kill - that is not what Valor was ever intended to fix.

I will concede that for someone that is trying to catch up and has larger swaths of time to spend in raid zones - bonus rolls are probably better; however, at a certain point where someone has most of the gear they need from the bosses they are killing, the value of bonus rolls quickly dwindles because they become limited on what bosses they can use the rolls on. The value of Valor increases at this point (assuming vendors aren't ignored like they were in 5.4) because then the player could finally just toss their hands up and spend the Valor to buy the item they are missing.

Ultimately, Valor > bonus rolls (assuming Valor vendors are updated each patch).

Again, we're assuming we only need one specific piece for one specific spec here, and that its one specific item that is available via valor. Thats a lot of ifs, The most likely scenario is that you need multiple peices from multiple bosses and that item is not available from Valor.

Its consistenly useful for specific slots, it wont give weapons or tier gear and it often doesnt give trinkets, it requires a grind to get to cap, often driving you to do things you have no interest in.

There is no requirement to cap Valor each week. Even if you do cap Valor, you still have 4 weeks to spend it. There is a requirement to kill something that you can use bonus rolls on - else you quickly become capped at 10 coins.

Most of the banter in this thread has been pointed toward people looking for a specific drop from a specific boss. Else, why would they possibly use bonus rolls on bosses they already have what they need from?

False, I was on holiday just last week, I logged in and got my bonus rolls, I raided this week and had 6 bonus rolls. I had zero Valor gained, last week.

You still missed like 14 chances for loot last week, with or without the bonus rolls. You can't just say you missed 1000 Valor and are now behind.

You did NO content last week. You might have won any of the gear you need, even without burning a bonus roll - that is just as "behind" as someone not Valor capping.

Hyperbole I'm afraid. I could have raided for 20 hours wiping on heroic garrosh and not had time to do extra activities to cap.

I'm not sure someone on heroic Garrosh is really still that concerned about bonus rolls or Valor. They have just pretty much already finished the MoP endgame.

Ditto, the scenario that a person needs one piece and that piece is available from Valor is just an incrdibly hard scenario to get to. Valor gear is primarily a stop gap, a gauranteed improvement on older gear, its rarely the last piece in the puzzle.

This is exactly what both systems were designed to try to help. Valor would feel more valuable right now if Blizzard hadn't neglected them in 5.4.

[Ronduwil]

The "grind" is not any longer for someone that chooses to only play on Saturday & Sunday than it is for someone that only plays two other days of the week.

You're right. Because they're still only playing two days a week. I would still classify those people as Weekend WoW Warriors even though they're technically playing weekdays. My point is that the diminishing returns on valor penalize the player who can put in the same amount of time within a given week for not consistently putting time in daily.

In 5.4 - the Valor cap has never been easier to cap out.

Bullshit. In 4.3 I could do a full DS raid in less than two hours and come out one dungeon away from cap. Now two hours gets me through the first two wings and I'll still be far from the cap. Alternately I could chain seven dungeons in a row and come out capped. These days chaining seven dungeons gets me 320 VP. I don't see how you can call that easier.

Does that mean the content to play while capping it out is the most interesting ever? No

And that's all I was trying to say. It's boring.

but it's not some long and arduous process to cap it out.

I never said it was arduous. Long is relative. As a college student 8 hours of capping is no sweat. As a parent with young children (thank God I've passed that phase) it's an eternity. I'm at a point where it's somewhere in between. Coming out of a four hour flex session with only a little over 300 valor to show for it is kind of disheartening.

To go further, if someone limited to just the weekend to play - then I'm not sure they should be worried about capping Valor anyway. Seems to me they should just enjoy what they are able to accomplish - and just what they are able to accomplish in MoP 5.4 is much greater than when compared to what they would be able to accomplish on the weekend back in TBC.

I disagree because TBC didn't have diminishing returns on grinding. You got just as much rep from grinding 8 hours straight in one day as you did from grinding two hours a day four days a week.

I find it interesting that capping Valor is being lambasted as such a grind when what else is there to do when queue times for LFR are at minimum 20mins if you are a DPS. SoO wings have commonly been 45+ minutes. That's 45 minutes to go pick up some Valor, rather than sit around the city idle.

But what's the point of queueing LFR when you already have the gear? Valor is the only incentive really, and the amount of valor LFR gives is actually pretty crappy considering all the work involved. In 4.3 I used to LFR for supplemental valor. Now it's hardly even worth my time. The only reason I LFR these days is to collect legendary quest items.

[draykorinee]

Yup, in different scenarios we'll have different outcomes as to which is going to benefit the player more. Blizzard won't please everyone.

[Raeln]

You're right. Because they're still only playing two days a week. I would still classify those people as Weekend WoW Warriors even though they're technically playing weekdays. My point is that

People that can only play two days a week are going to have trouble consuming all the content each week - be it Valor capping or killing all that tier's raid bosses.

Bullshit. In 4.3 I could do a full DS raid in less than two hours and come out one dungeon away from cap. Now two hours gets me through the first two wings and I'll still be far from the cap. Alternately I could chain seven dungeons in a row and come out capped. These days chaining seven dungeons gets me 320 VP. I don't see how you can call that easier.

It comes down to this:

Bonus rolls = raid or die

Valor system = raid and do other things

I'm siding with the Valor system, I've had enough raiding already that I would be happy if raiding would take a backseat for a couple expansions.

And that's all I was trying to say. It's boring.

Spending 6 minutes fighting an overgrown NPC on steriods with mechanics after wading through 10 minutes of trash, all while having my character reduced to only a rotation - only to repeat the process all over for the next 3 bosses is boring for me.

I never said it was arduous. Long is relative. As a college student 8 hours of capping is no sweat. As a parent with young children (thank God I've passed that phase) it's an eternity. I'm at a point where it's somewhere in between. Coming out of a four hour flex session with only a little over 300 valor to show for it is kind of disheartening.

You are doing something wrong if it takes you 8 hours to Valor cap in 5.4.

I disagree because TBC didn't have diminishing returns on grinding. You got just as much rep from grinding 8 hours straight in one day as you did from grinding two hours a day four days a week.


But what's the point of queueing LFR when you already have the gear? Valor is the only incentive really, and the amount of valor LFR gives is actually pretty crappy considering all the work involved. In 4.3 I used to LFR for supplemental valor. Now it's hardly even worth my time. The only reason I LFR these days is to collect legendary quest items.

Then don't queue for LFR. In 5.4, Valor is primarily for upgrading gear, just grind out Valor as you need it - no need to keep capping every week.

[Lesane]

Good change.

1. Gets rid of one more needless and forced time sink, which is valor capping.
2. Doesn't get people certain quality of gear that they shouldn't be getting (in other words, no more normal level gear for LFR heroes).

If they tweak the coin system a bit it will even be better than valor. Valor gives you a guaranteed piece of loot once every few weeks. Problems with it are as follows:

1. You are forced to cap valor every week to benefit from this system, which is boring as hell.
2. The items you get are inferior and placeholders at best, unless you are a LFR hero in which case you shouldn't be getting your hands on that level of gear anyway.
3. It only covers certain slots. It's an absolutely useless system if your bad luck is bound to i.e. your weapon slot while your neck or ring slot is fine.

With bonus rolls, the gear you get from it will be useful and possibly not placeholder, it will allow you to aim for specific items which actually matter and you can play it in a way that you can make sure luck isn't that much of a factor for your most important slots. It will also require more thinking and strategy than valor, which is good. Yes, the current coin system blows but with just a few tweaks on it, it will be way better.

[Ronduwil]

People that can only play two days a week are going to have trouble consuming all the content each week - be it Valor capping or killing all that tier's raid bosses.

Not really. There are players who long on to raid four hours a week and still close out the entire tier. It's actually kind of weird for Blizzard to gimp returns on players running dungeons two days a week without imposing similar restrictions on activities like raiding. You don't, for example, get half loot chances or half valor returns on your second raid boss kill for the day. Why are you only getting half valor on your second scenario and/or second dungeon? It makes no sense. Besides, let's say you're correct and that "people that can only play two days a week are going to have trouble consuming all the content each week." Why penalize them even further by gimping their valor rates?

It comes down to this:

Bonus rolls = raid or die

Valor system = raid and do other things

What if they extended bonus rolls to heroic dungeon bosses? I agree you should be "rewarded" for a variety of activities, but I don't think you should be "forced" to do a bunch of things you don't necessarily enjoy to maximize your performance in the area of the game that you do enjoy.

I'm siding with the Valor system, I've had enough raiding already that I would be happy if raiding would take a backseat for a couple expansions.

I'm sick of raiding too, but I see the Valor system as favoring raiding. The only use for valor now is to upgrade gear, and the only gear worth upgrading comes out of raids. If you could use your valor to indefinitely upgrade your heroic blues to raid level then I would find the valor system more compelling, but I don't think that would ever have happened. As it is I'm happy to go back to the days when I could get gear and immediately wear it instead of having to wait to go back to the reforger, reforge it, go back to the upgrader, upgrade it, go back to the AH and enchant/gem/buckle it before it's actually an upgrade.

Spending 6 minutes fighting an overgrown NPC on steriods with mechanics after wading through 10 minutes of trash, all while having my character reduced to only a rotation - only to repeat the process all over for the next 3 bosses is boring for me.

I'm pretty sure you're not the only one who feels that way. I honestly never understood the appear of raiding either. Fighting bosses with 9-24 people I barely know is not nearly as much fun as tackling 5-man content with a handful of good in-game friends.

Then don't queue for LFR. In 5.4, Valor is primarily for upgrading gear, just grind out Valor as you need it - no need to keep capping every week.

The beauty of WoD will be that there will be no need to grind valor at all.

[draykorinee]

As it is I'm happy to go back to the days when I could get gear and immediately wear it instead of having to wait to go back to the reforger, reforge it, go back to the upgrader, upgrade it, go back to the AH and enchant/gem/buckle it before it's actually an upgrade.

Couldn't agree more, I understand that people feel it adds depth or whatever to the gearing proccess, I just feel like its an absolute chore, removing reforge is such a good change. I do like upgrades though, and really they are super quick to do.

Although I disagree with the whole raid thing, proper raiding is about forming bonds with he people you spend a huge amount of time with and I count a lot of people I raided with now good friends.

[Raeln]

Not really. There are players who long on to raid four hours a week and still close out the entire tier. It's actually kind of weird for Blizzard to gimp returns on players running dungeons two days a week without imposing similar restrictions on activities like raiding. You don't, for example, get half loot chances or half valor returns on your second raid boss kill for the day. Why are you only getting half valor on your second scenario and/or second dungeon? It makes no sense. Besides, let's say you're correct and that "people that can only play two days a week are going to have trouble consuming all the content each week." Why penalize them even further by gimping their valor rates?

It comes down to this:

I don't like the concept of daily dungeon/scenario things. I'd rather it just be the same. They did it to extend out the content.

I suppose they don't do it raiding because raiding is already on a weekly lockout.

What if they extended bonus rolls to heroic dungeon bosses? I agree you should be "rewarded" for a variety of activities, but I don't think you should be "forced" to do a bunch of things you don't necessarily enjoy to maximize your performance in the area of the game that you do enjoy.

I see a bonus roll in a heroic dungeon awarding gear that heroic dungeon boss drops - which would be less valuable because you can run that dungeon 7 times a week, as opposed to the once a week for raid bosses.

I'm sick of raiding too, but I see the Valor system as favoring raiding. The only use for valor now is to upgrade gear, and the only gear worth upgrading comes out of raids. If you could use your valor to indefinitely upgrade your heroic blues to raid level then I would find the valor system more compelling, but I don't think that would ever have happened. As it is I'm happy to go back to the days when I could get gear and immediately wear it instead of having to wait to go back to the reforger, reforge it, go back to the upgrader, upgrade it, go back to the AH and enchant/gem/buckle it before it's actually an upgrade.

I had hoped the valor upgrade system would have been that and allowed you to upgrade any piece of gear (with enough Valor) that it would eventually reach the max itemlevel for the current content patch.

Didn't happen - my guess is because Blizzard thought many would stop raiding altogether.

I'm pretty sure you're not the only one who feels that way. I honestly never understood the appear of raiding either. Fighting bosses with 9-24 people I barely know is not nearly as much fun as tackling 5-man content with a handful of good in-game friends.

Eventually, a MMORPG will come out that seriously focuses on small group content. I just hope when they do that they don't try to put in a million different other things that end up killing the game before people can get to the small group content endgame.

The beauty of WoD will be that there will be no need to grind valor at all.

I'm not seeing the "beauty" yet - though that may be because I played MMORPGs before they implemented Valor/badge systems. It wasn't so great. Let's just say that not winning anything, but still getting a few Valor points/badges is far better than not winning anything at all - no matter how many bonus rolls you may have stashed.

I'm more afraid of what the final face of what they replace Valor with will be. At this point, I've seen nothing that says endgame won't just be MoP 2.0.

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Couldn't agree more, I understand that people feel it adds depth or whatever to the gearing proccess, I just feel like its an absolute chore, removing reforge is such a good change. I do like upgrades though, and really they are super quick to do.

Although I disagree with the whole raid thing, proper raiding is about forming bonds with he people you spend a huge amount of time with and I count a lot of people I raided with now good friends.

I hate to see valor upgrading go - I'd rather see it expanded on to let us upgrade any piece of gear to the max itemlevel for the current patch.

That said - I don't see why being able to summon a valor upgrade npc via a guild perk isn't available yet.

[Raiju]

That bad luck can offset good luck every so often? Yeah we get that point, its been raised at least every other post I'm sure. Its a valid criticism but it doesn't mean that bonus roles are the wrong route to take, it's just not to everyone's liking.

They both have pros and cons. The grind to cap valor and the fact if you miss a week you're further back from everyone are negatives of valor. Blizzard won't win either way.

Except as proven with conquest point that penalty doesn't need to exist and currently doesn't there. Next argument pls.

Bonus rolls award the lucky with getting even further ahead than the unlucky. Like it or not the progression compared to those around you is relevant to players of all levels.

[Deleted]

They will be looking at reducing the chance to get duplicate items via bonus rolls aswell.

Probably just propaganda to keep people playing...why would they reduce one of their main methods of keeping people playing? (I wouldn't be surprised if the "chance of duplicate items" is artificially high atm for that very reason)